Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.

Okay. Two things.

1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.

2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.

3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.

DP.

I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:

1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.

2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.

By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.

Yes they have.

During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.

In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.

Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.

I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.

I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?

Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?

i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.

Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.

But Palestinians are dumber

They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.

I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?

Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.

Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences

Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.

How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?

Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas

Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.

Yeah, well, no.

Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.

But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.

Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.

Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.

The way things are going, there are not going to be many Palestinians left

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Two women murdered inside a church by a sniper? Last thing the Jews need is to have a pissed off group of Catholics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Disgusting.

But we all knew this was the plan.

Israel is repugnant

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.

Okay. Two things.

1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.

2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.

3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.

DP.

I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:

1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.

2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.

By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.

That is your opinion. The Palestinians clearly feel a deep connection to their land. They are willing to die for it. Israel feels the same nationalism but somehow doesn’t seem to understand that the Palestinians feel the exact same way

ou are essentially making the argument that all Palestinians are potential terrorists. Do you like where that argument goes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.

Okay. Two things.

1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.

2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.

3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.

DP.

I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:

1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.

2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.

By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.

Yes they have.

During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.

In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.

Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.

I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.

I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?

Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?

i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.

Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.

But Palestinians are dumber

They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.

I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?

Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.

Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences

Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.

How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?

Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas

I wouldn't use the word "dumb" but I would say there hasn't been a lot of forward thinking there. Your whole plan can't be, we're going to terrorism our way into a goal that is literally impossible to achieve.

[Anonymous]

DP. From NYT, on Dec 17:

People whispered that Nasser al-Astal had come undone, dazed by grief. Weeks after the Israeli airstrike that he said had crashed into his family’s home, his words came in loud, quivering spurts, darting frantically from memory to memory, from loss to loss — his wife, two of their sons and four of their daughters, all dead.

A daughter-in-law and a son-in-law, dead. His older brother and his family, dead. His first grandchild, dead, he said, his second never born: His elder son’s wife had been pregnant.

“When I look at photos of my family on my phone, I cry to myself at night,” Mr. al-Astal said in a phone interview a few weeks after his loss. “But men hide their tears, so I try to do it away from people, alone.”

All of their names were there in black and white on a list of 6,747 Palestinians who Gaza health officials said had been killed by Israeli attacks in the first 19 days of the war. No. 14: his wife, Marwa al-Astal, 48. No. 84: their granddaughter, 1, also named Marwa.

The first 88 people on the list were all from the extended al-Astal family. The next 72 were Hassounas. The next 65 al-Najjars. The next 60 al-Masrys. The next 49 al-Kurds.

Such numbers capture the magnitude of Gaza’s loss like little else: family trees dismembered, whole branches of them obliterated.

It has been almost two months since the list was released on Oct. 26, and the death toll given by Gaza’s Health Ministry has nearly tripled, approaching 20,000.

A ministry spokesman, Ashraf al-Qudra, said early last month that more than 100 people in the Astal family alone had been killed in Israeli attacks. Of 88 family members on the Oct. 26 list, 39 were identified as children and 25 as women.

Israel’s war in Gaza is killing women and children at a faster pace than in almost any other conflict in the world this century.

A few of the family’s dead were linked to Hamas, the armed Palestinian group that has ruled Gaza for 16 years and that led the Oct. 7 attacks on Israel that killed about 1,200 people, according to Israeli officials.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Two women murdered inside a church by a sniper? Last thing the Jews need is to have a pissed off group of Catholics.

American Christian’s don’t think of brown Christian’s as Christian. If you think otherwise, explain how Christians in Bethlehem have been treated since isreal conquered it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Disgusting.

But we all knew this was the plan.

Israel is repugnant

Yet congress is falling over itself to make sure they have more bombs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Two women murdered inside a church by a sniper? Last thing the Jews need is to have a pissed off group of Catholics.

Like they’ve been best buddies through the centuries.

[Anonymous]

To all those excoriating Biden: what would a GOP president do differently?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To all those excoriating Biden: what would a GOP president do differently?

Obama would have been more nuanced. He at least recognized the complexity of the situation. Bibi hated Obama which is frankly a compliment to Obama

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul

This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.

Okay. Two things.

1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.

2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.

3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.

DP.

I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:

1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.

2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.

By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.

Yes they have.

During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.

In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.

Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.

I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.

I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?

Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?

i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.

Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.

But Palestinians are dumber

They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.

I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?

Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.

Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences

Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.

How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?

Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas

Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.

Yeah, well, no.

Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.

But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.

Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.

Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.

[Anonymous]

Hamas popularity has surged in the West Bank. This should concern Israel greatly

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maher with a dose of reality for the Hamas fangurls:

https://www.foxnews.com/media/bill-maher-urges-palestinians-not-believe-myth-from-river-to-sea-israel-going-nowhere

Israel is free to do whatever it damn wants which seems to be to kill as many Palestinians as possible but in that case Jewish people should stop acting shocked when the rest of the world views Israel as a heartless, cold blooded nation with no soul

This is the most common sense thing I have read about what is going on...and a few years ago it would not all have had to been said, but progressives have distored common sense.

Okay. Two things.

1. It is illogical to say "bad things happen and people get moved all the time" but conclude this with "Israel is here to stay". If things change and people move, they can change for Israel too.

2. "Everyone comes to an accommodation" not by hugs and kisses, but through restoration of rights. There is a reason Jews can reclaim stolen and compensated property in many places in Europe - because people acknowledged that what happened to them was unjust. They weren't told to just get over it. Israel restores pre-1948 property to Jews who can prove ownership. Not to Arabs, mind you. Never to Arabs. You come to an accommodation when the party that wronged you acknowledges the wrong and makes an effort to compensate for the wrong. "Get over it" is not an accommodation.

3. I find it terribly ironic when people parrot the line of "Palestinians were offered their own state on three different occasions!" but you press them for details and turns out they don't know crap about what was actually offered.

DP.

I know exactly what was offered on each occasion and think that the following is inarguably true:

1. The Palestinians will not get a better deal in the future than what they’ve previously been offered.

2. The Palestinian people would be FAR better off today had they accepted any of the previous offers.

By any measure of real world impact, the Palestinian leadership has chosen poorly.

Yes they have.

During decolonization, they were given a very nice state that stretched from the border with Lebanon to the Negev. Hills. Forests, a good coastline on the Mediterranean. Towns like Nazareth and Hebron. Olive groves. But they chose war instead.

In 1993, with the Oslo Accords, they were given all of Gaza and 97 percent of the West Bank. Israel would have compensated the remaining 3 percent with their own lands. All the West Bank settlers would have been long gone by now.

Instead, Palestinians chose intifada.

I don't mean this unkindly, but Palestinians seem to be incapable of having effective leadership. They choose Hamas. They choose Islamic Jihad. They choose the Palestinian Authority, one of the most corrupt parties in the world. Back on the day, the chose the PLO - murdering Olympic athletes, hijacking airplanes, causing a civil war in Lebanon, assassinating Prime Ministers in Jordan, supporting the invasion of Kuwait.

I mean, what is there to say. If they had chosen a Gandhi or a MLK, they would have had a state for a long time now. But they don't. They always choose terrorism, violence, corruption, fanaticism. How do you work with this?

Serious question: How do you keep a straight face pretending that someone like Bibi would have EVER allowed the establishment of a Palestinian state of any kind over the past 27 years? Seriously, how do you do it?

i think Netanyahu and Likud are terrible.

Israelis are genuinely stupid for going with this. There are a lot of extremists in Israel. I mean they murdered Yitzhak Rabin for goodness sake. Israelis are not ipso facto wonderful people.

But Palestinians are dumber

They've had numerous chances for a good, independent state. And they've rejected all of them.

I mean, what is there to do? Who the hell do you even negotiate with?

Palestinians have been idiots for 80 years. That's the problem. They think massacring a 1000+ innocent people and kidnapping hundreds of others is a great idea.

Yeah, well, that was a terrible idea and they are paying the consequences

Israelis aren't wonderful, but Palestinians are literally the dumbest people on the planet. They chose this.

How are Palestinians dumber? Bibi literally funds Hamas while elderly Holocaust survivors barely have enough to eat in Israel. That’s smart ?

Do you think Palestinians would ever support Ben Gvir or the right wing Kahanists/extremists and give them money to create settlements in the West Bank? They wouldn’t but Israel playing with fire until it got burned by Hamas

Your assumption is that Palestinians are docile idiots that got played by Netanyahu. And that Hamas is nothing more than a fabrication created by Israel.

Yeah, well, no.

Israelis made a terrible mistake electing this government. And they recognize that now. Netanyahu is polling at 4 percent presently. He'll be done once there are elections again. And there will be an investigation about the security failures that led to 10/7.

But Palestinians? Optimistically, this war ends when Sinwar is dead. Realistically, nothing ends until Palestinians choose some decent leaders. And they've shown no capacity to do so.

Israel has every right to destroy Hamas. Palestinians in Gaza chose war. It's brutal. It's unfair. But this is what Palestinians in Gaza chose for themselves. If you don't like the consequences, maybe don't invade and massacre and rape and kidnap a bunch of innocent people. And maybe choose better leaders. Every death is on the Palestinians in Gaza. They chose poorly - as they always seem to do.

Israel, because it's a democracy and notably nearly 25 percent Arab, will correct itself. But if Palestinians continue to choose Islamic extremists like Hamas or corrupt dinosaurs like the PA, well, things are going to continue to be a little hopeless. It's all up to the Palestinian people.

Easy to justify your pro-Israel views by calling Palestinians stupid but I doubt that they are any more stupid than you or me. All people want the same thing - safety, security, food, housing, jobs, a future for their children. They were offered bad deals - end of story.