North Dakota Ballot Measure to get rid of Property Tax

[Anonymous]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/north-dakota-voters-could-end-property-taxes-and-pour-gas-on-the-spark-of-a-growing-tax-revolt-f32ae8db

If the ballot measure passes, North Dakota would become the first U.S. state to end property taxes. Its passage could also add muscle to the push to eliminate the tax elsewhere, property-tax skeptics say. The idea has been floated in states like Texas, Nebraska and Michigan, while lawmakers in the Great Plains and Mountain West states say big reforms are needed quickly.

Property taxes are the “most egregious and least moral of all the taxes,” according to Rick Becker, chair of the organization that put Measure 4 on the North Dakota state ballot. The ballot measure would repeal residential, commercial and agricultural property taxes, he noted.

These taxes uses opaque formulas to make homeowners keep paying for property they already own, he said. They’re also based on the “unrealized” paper value of a home, he added.

[Anonymous]

I generally agree that property taxes are bad overall, as they tend to be utilized for richer areas to support more local services and thus not spread the tax revenue more widely.

But doing something like this without a connected income tax increase to balance out the revenue is insane.

Michigan significantly reduced local property taxes 30 years ago and increased income taxes by 50% at the same time to balance it out.

https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/a_refresher_on_proposal_a_and_local_property_taxes

[Anonymous]

This is a great way to end up with terrible schools, unless you make up for the lost revenue with another form of taxation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a great way to end up with terrible schools, unless you make up for the lost revenue with another form of taxation.

I mean, it's North Dakota.
The rich are probably private.
The poor, do they have any power?

[Anonymous]

On a small scale, property taxes are not much different than a wealth tax on unrecognized capital gains.

The only reason people don't freak out about property tax is because of just the fact that property taxes have been around for forever, and you aren't taxed on your house at 20% each year.

[Anonymous]

I generally agree that property taxes are bad overall, as they tend to be utilized for richer areas to support more local services and thus not spread the tax revenue more widely.

Vermont has a new system of some portion of property taxes being sent a statewide fund to proportionally dole out to school districts with the highest needs.

And as you might expect, people are pissed.

[Anonymous]

Fleecing the poor as usual.

[Anonymous]

What has been proven time and again is that if you put "free money" on the ballot, it will always pass.

Medicaid expansion and an increase in minimum wage easily passed ballot measures in red states.

Of course, eliminating taxes will pass too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I generally agree that property taxes are bad overall, as they tend to be utilized for richer areas to support more local services and thus not spread the tax revenue more widely.

Vermont has a new system of some portion of property taxes being sent a statewide fund to proportionally dole out to school districts with the highest needs.

And as you might expect, people are pissed.

Good for them. I think you meant "rich people are pissed", to be accurate.

[Anonymous]

In NYC there is even something more cool. In Soho and Tribeca there is a handful of small older coop buildings where coop owns the first floor rental commercial property space.

The rental income is so high the building pays no monthly maint charges and in fact some get rebates every year. A coop includes, property taxes, heat, hot water, gas so those people only pay the electric bill each month.

They now sell for a lot but older people who bought have been free riding for 30-50 years

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In NYC there is even something more cool. In Soho and Tribeca there is a handful of small older coop buildings where coop owns the first floor rental commercial property space.

The rental income is so high the building pays no monthly maint charges and in fact some get rebates every year. A coop includes, property taxes, heat, hot water, gas so those people only pay the electric bill each month.

They now sell for a lot but older people who bought have been free riding for 30-50 years

Yeah, but at least that's the market at work. Obviously one very clear benefit of the Co-op vs. the Condo structure (where in the Condo scenario the developer would still own the retail space and not share that with the Condo owners).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In NYC there is even something more cool. In Soho and Tribeca there is a handful of small older coop buildings where coop owns the first floor rental commercial property space.

The rental income is so high the building pays no monthly maint charges and in fact some get rebates every year. A coop includes, property taxes, heat, hot water, gas so those people only pay the electric bill each month.

They now sell for a lot but older people who bought have been free riding for 30-50 years

That sounds like NYC under assessed the value

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In NYC there is even something more cool. In Soho and Tribeca there is a handful of small older coop buildings where coop owns the first floor rental commercial property space.

The rental income is so high the building pays no monthly maint charges and in fact some get rebates every year. A coop includes, property taxes, heat, hot water, gas so those people only pay the electric bill each month.

They now sell for a lot but older people who bought have been free riding for 30-50 years

That's California writ large because of Prop 13.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.marketwatch.com/story/north-dakota-voters-could-end-property-taxes-and-pour-gas-on-the-spark-of-a-growing-tax-revolt-f32ae8db

If the ballot measure passes, North Dakota would become the first U.S. state to end property taxes. Its passage could also add muscle to the push to eliminate the tax elsewhere, property-tax skeptics say. The idea has been floated in states like Texas, Nebraska and Michigan, while lawmakers in the Great Plains and Mountain West states say big reforms are needed quickly.

Property taxes are the “most egregious and least moral of all the taxes,” according to Rick Becker, chair of the organization that put Measure 4 on the North Dakota state ballot. The ballot measure would repeal residential, commercial and agricultural property taxes, he noted.

These taxes uses opaque formulas to make homeowners keep paying for property they already own, he said. They’re also based on the “unrealized” paper value of a home, he added.

How would no income tax and no property tax work?

[Anonymous]

The will end the same way the Kansas/Sam Brownback debacle did - in a few years, people will be aghast at the (entirely foreseeable) consequences and have to course correct. But in the meantime, ordinary people will suffer. In the case of Kansas, the GOP controlled legislature overturned the rollback of state income taxes.