UPenn M&T

[Anonymous]

I’ve read that less than 60 students get chosen for this M&T program and not sure how many are ED. DC is at well known STEM HS and is considering applying to this program but will not have taken AP Econ. Will have completed MVC, Linear Algebra, AP Physics C: M/E&M and for got 5s on all APs taken including BC Calc, Stats, CSA. Has taken a lot of CS classes.
Will they have a chance of being considered if haven’t taken AP Econ and are not in any business related clubs/activities and hasn’t founded a “non-profit”? Or should they just apply for a spot in the engineering school? DC otherwise is competitive re: stats, leadership, ECs and has a URM hook but don’t think that matters much anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve read that less than 60 students get chosen for this M&T program and not sure how many are ED. DC is at well known STEM HS and is considering applying to this program but will not have taken AP Econ. Will have completed MVC, Linear Algebra, AP Physics C: M/E&M and for got 5s on all APs taken including BC Calc, Stats, CSA. Has taken a lot of CS classes.
Will they have a chance of being considered if haven’t taken AP Econ and are not in any business related clubs/activities and hasn’t founded a “non-profit”? Or should they just apply for a spot in the engineering school? DC otherwise is competitive re: stats, leadership, ECs and has a URM hook but don’t think that matters much anymore.

Your student has as much of a chance as anyone. The UPenn Dual degree programs are extremely competitive: A couple thousand of the 65k applicants to UPenn apply to EACH of the more popular ones (M&T, Viper), and the school selects 50 some for M&T in particular, with above 90% yield. ED vs RD is not released but from students there, less than half of the duals applied ED and just over half applied RD. One AP course is not going to be the deal breaker: these specific programs look for fit and the most important part for these two specific ones, considering they require Engineering as one of the degrees, is a rigorous STEM background, most having math past BC calculus. Your student seems in line, presuming they have straight As in STEM if not all courses. The WHY M&T will need to be explained in the essays, and the ECs will matter and there should be some clear thread that makes M&T a fit. Students who ED can ED for M&T and use just one school as a "backup", in this case SEAS. SEAS itself is extremely competitive the past 3-4 yrs especially, with sub-3.5% admit rates multiple years based on quotes from the Dean.

[Anonymous]

The more important question is why does your kid want to apply to M&T. My kid opted for straight engineering after talking to some kids in the program and advice from some mentors.

The thought was M&T would be filled with more entrepreneurial types, but that's really not the case. These kids want to work in Banking/VC/PE/Hedge Funds primarily.

Lack of AP Econ is a non-factor...you should listen to the webinars that are run specifically by the M&T Dean to understand how they evaluate candidates.

[Anonymous]

The one kid we know that got into M&T a couple of years ago was from a base, non-magnet HS. This kid's profile was 'well manicured' over 4 years of HS to include an EC which got them a couple of high visibility awards and a big national scholarship that likely had a role to play in the admission. Of course, the kid is top notch in terms of academics but then so is every applicant to this program.

[Anonymous]

You are delusional to think you can get into M&T without economics. Keep dreaming.

[Anonymous]

I'll say it flat: M&T is Penn's way of getting students it traditionally would lose to other ivies and to Berkeley's M.E.T. Your child sounds like they have a good chance of getting into a much better program. If they can get into Harvard (Math 55 can change your life, and I've heard finance guys praise a peer who did very well in it), Stanford, Princeton, run to those schools and don't look back. It's not that Penn is a bad place or anything, but M&T is more on the finance side of things (Wharton Influence). The top students of Berkeley, Stanford, and Princeton/Harvard are much better than the top of Penn, and this is coming from a Penn grad.

By the by, URM status still matters. Just put it in a supplement or common app essay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll say it flat: M&T is Penn's way of getting students it traditionally would lose to other ivies and to Berkeley's M.E.T. Your child sounds like they have a good chance of getting into a much better program. If they can get into Harvard (Math 55 can change your life, and I've heard finance guys praise a peer who did very well in it), Stanford, Princeton, run to those schools and don't look back. It's not that Penn is a bad place or anything, but M&T is more on the finance side of things (Wharton Influence). The top students of Berkeley, Stanford, and Princeton/Harvard are much better than the top of Penn, and this is coming from a Penn grad.

By the by, URM status still matters. Just put it in a supplement or common app essay.

+1 it’s a yield improvement tactic for Penn. And you can’t blame them, when things get to RD they have to fight for students with HPSM, Caltech, Duke, Columbia, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll say it flat: M&T is Penn's way of getting students it traditionally would lose to other ivies and to Berkeley's M.E.T. Your child sounds like they have a good chance of getting into a much better program. If they can get into Harvard (Math 55 can change your life, and I've heard finance guys praise a peer who did very well in it), Stanford, Princeton, run to those schools and don't look back. It's not that Penn is a bad place or anything, but M&T is more on the finance side of things (Wharton Influence). The top students of Berkeley, Stanford, and Princeton/Harvard are much better than the top of Penn, and this is coming from a Penn grad.

By the by, URM status still matters. Just put it in a supplement or common app essay.

This a ridciculous explanation of the program. My kid is friends with many M&T kids and the college decision is entirely different for this group. None indicated any intent to apply to Berkeley (two are from CA and had no interest in Berkeley). They want the program because they want the program…who knows what school would be their top choice if the program didn’t exist.

BTW…you mentioned only two Ivy schools “that it would lose kids to” and Stanford. All (including Penn) with sub 5% acceptance rates and the entire group in the Top 6 in the country.

OP…whatever your kid does…don’t believe nonsense posts that aren’t supported by anything.

[Anonymous]

Not to steal the thread but my DC was interested in the LSM program from UPenn, and I had the similar question. Strong science foundation and related ECs, high GPA, test optional but lacking the "business" side of things - no advance math or economics. URM. Hopefully there is a decent shot here, particularly if EDing.

[Anonymous]

Have your DC write an essay that discusses experiences related to being an URM. It will help a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll say it flat: M&T is Penn's way of getting students it traditionally would lose to other ivies and to Berkeley's M.E.T. Your child sounds like they have a good chance of getting into a much better program. If they can get into Harvard (Math 55 can change your life, and I've heard finance guys praise a peer who did very well in it), Stanford, Princeton, run to those schools and don't look back. It's not that Penn is a bad place or anything, but M&T is more on the finance side of things (Wharton Influence). The top students of Berkeley, Stanford, and Princeton/Harvard are much better than the top of Penn, and this is coming from a Penn grad.

By the by, URM status still matters. Just put it in a supplement or common app essay.

This a ridciculous explanation of the program. My kid is friends with many M&T kids and the college decision is entirely different for this group. None indicated any intent to apply to Berkeley (two are from CA and had no interest in Berkeley). They want the program because they want the program…who knows what school would be their top choice if the program didn’t exist.

BTW…you mentioned only two Ivy schools “that it would lose kids to” and Stanford. All (including Penn) with sub 5% acceptance rates and the entire group in the Top 6 in the country.

OP…whatever your kid does…don’t believe nonsense posts that aren’t supported by anything.

I agree completely that this program has zero to do with the admissions office wanting to compete with other colleges.

I went to Penn in the early 80s, soon after the program got started. It was basically a way to give engineering kids the background to start and run businesses, rather than just tinker with things. Turns out that finance LOVES these students, so most end up there, rather than becoming managrrs at Ford. But the whole program had nothing to do with admissions (which was not a big consideration back then as all places were easier admits, and engineering wasn't really a sought after degree). I should add that the few classmates i had in the program were all uber smart, all went into finance, all got very rich, and I'm fairly sure that all are now retired in their early 60s, with one friend having stopped working in his mid 30s. None of that was my goal, but if money is a goal, no surer bet than this program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll say it flat: M&T is Penn's way of getting students it traditionally would lose to other ivies and to Berkeley's M.E.T. Your child sounds like they have a good chance of getting into a much better program. If they can get into Harvard (Math 55 can change your life, and I've heard finance guys praise a peer who did very well in it), Stanford, Princeton, run to those schools and don't look back. It's not that Penn is a bad place or anything, but M&T is more on the finance side of things (Wharton Influence). The top students of Berkeley, Stanford, and Princeton/Harvard are much better than the top of Penn, and this is coming from a Penn grad.

By the by, URM status still matters. Just put it in a supplement or common app essay.

This a ridciculous explanation of the program. My kid is friends with many M&T kids and the college decision is entirely different for this group. None indicated any intent to apply to Berkeley (two are from CA and had no interest in Berkeley). They want the program because they want the program…who knows what school would be their top choice if the program didn’t exist.

BTW…you mentioned only two Ivy schools “that it would lose kids to” and Stanford. All (including Penn) with sub 5% acceptance rates and the entire group in the Top 6 in the country.

OP…whatever your kid does…don’t believe nonsense posts that aren’t supported by anything.

If you can get into M&T, you can get into an ivy with "sub 5% acceptance rates." A person interested in engineering will get further with all 3 other schools than Penn. The dual degree programs are clearly trying to attract top-level talent if only 60 out of thousands are applying. It's not unreasonable that Penn would make this move to attract students they lose to other institutions. Just because one mom says her kid didn't apply to Berkeley (I'm not convinced you know much about any of the other kids in M&T), doesn't mean there isn't significant overlap in applicants. M&T and MET are definitely competing with one another and good STEM Students do apply to both.