Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can't leave the GoJo deal and Waystar's fate hanging. If the show ends in two days but the Mencken election is winding its way through the courts, they'll have to find another way to wrap up the GoJo plotline. I don't know what that would look like, but Waystar and GoJo have financial dirt on each other.

I don't know that we know for sure that the last episode will take place the day after the funeral. The show has not actually been one day per episode thus far -- the episodes in Norway and LA both span multiple days, for instance. Some episodes, like last night's, only cover a handful of hours.

I could see the last episode taking place the day after the funeral, but I could also see it being a big jump forward, or covering multiple days over a larger time period. It's the series finale so I think honestly anything could happen in terms of timeline.

I'm throwing my hat in the ring for a jump forward prediction. Maybe a few months at least, but it depends on what happens in the next episode.

One reason is Shiv's pregnancy. If there is not a larger plot point with that then it's really been a waste of time. It's this weird loose end - Shiv knows, the Dr. knows, and now Tom knows, ok. But to what end?

I also think they have to do something to resolve the Waystar/GoJo deal. I think it falls apart, but the why could be a lot of things. Aren't the kids still supposed to buy Pierce? I don't remember if the Pierce deal was contingent on Wayster/GoJo going through. I felt like the last Cherry Jones appearance was her final appearance on the show though.

I did feel like this episode set the stage for the major players and signaled that the old guard are going to remain the old guard and the Stewy and Sandy crew may be in the mix, but not a main focus.

A jump forward would make resolving a lot of these plot lines easier. But it seems out of keeping with the pace so far. Every episode is a day, or max 2-3 days, and then we jump forward 8 months to see Shiv nursing her baby (or not)? It seems fractured to me.

They could spend most of the episode on a 1-3 day period following the funeral, and then the last 5 minutes on a jump forward to show what the outcome of it all is. Like some options:

- Flash forward to an event 6 months or a year in the future that brings these people together and shows us where they are all at and offers a bit of exposition

- Montage of events following the end of the last scene showing us generally where each character goes

- Something more avant grade or original, like a jump forward with other characters (like the new, non-Roy CEO and their team, whether that's Matsson et al or Geri et al or someone else), or a focus on some more tertiary characters like Willa, Karl, or others who could show us the story from another perspective

I don't think they are tied to just having the final episode represent the next day or two after the funeral. Lots of ways to finish the story though it depends a lot on how exactly it ends.

[Anonymous]

NP here and I can't imagine Shiv "nursing" her baby...that's too intimate for her, she'll have the nanny bottle-feeding the baby.

But...I have a vibe that she and Tom may stick together after all that. BC they are in some sort of bond of toxicity, and the baby is the latest excuse to intermingle again.

[Anonymous]

So I am very anti “shiv is going to abort!” because I think it’s a huge reach and there is like 1-2 posters obsessed with that idea who keep talking about it.
BUT!
Two episodes left and shiv has only told Tom so far (who didn’t even seem to believe her). And it seems each episode only lasts a day (or two). Which means the series will end way before Shivs due date.
I could totally see the end of her arc being that she either leaves Tom/ leaves her entire family (or is kicked out), aborts, and goes off somewhere alone.
Or, commits suicide. She took some big blows this season.

I don’t think it’s realistic to end the series with a main character being pregnant and not having the pregnancy be resolved either by a baby being born or by the pregnancy ending. It’s not a neat closure otherwise. I think the series will somehow need to complete her pregnancy arch- either by shiv having the baby, miscarrying, aborting, or committing suicide.

[Anonymous]

shiv doesn't have the suicide vibe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So I am very anti “shiv is going to abort!” because I think it’s a huge reach and there is like 1-2 posters obsessed with that idea who keep talking about it.
BUT!
Two episodes left and shiv has only told Tom so far (who didn’t even seem to believe her). And it seems each episode only lasts a day (or two). Which means the series will end way before Shivs due date.
I could totally see the end of her arc being that she either leaves Tom/ leaves her entire family (or is kicked out), aborts, and goes off somewhere alone.
Or, commits suicide. She took some big blows this season.

I don’t think it’s realistic to end the series with a main character being pregnant and not having the pregnancy be resolved either by a baby being born or by the pregnancy ending. It’s not a neat closure otherwise. I think the series will somehow need to complete her pregnancy arch- either by shiv having the baby, miscarrying, aborting, or committing suicide.

I don't see Shiv committing suicide because despite the challenges she's had this season, she seems to have held onto her sense of self-worth. She might feel extremely isolated, but I think she's suicidal.

There are a bunch of other characters who seem to be spiraling down and are self-medicating or in denial about their pain, and I think they are at much greater risk for self harm. Shiv, with all her faults, is "feeling her feelings" which my therapist always says is healthy even when it sucks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I am very anti “shiv is going to abort!” because I think it’s a huge reach and there is like 1-2 posters obsessed with that idea who keep talking about it.
BUT!
Two episodes left and shiv has only told Tom so far (who didn’t even seem to believe her). And it seems each episode only lasts a day (or two). Which means the series will end way before Shivs due date.
I could totally see the end of her arc being that she either leaves Tom/ leaves her entire family (or is kicked out), aborts, and goes off somewhere alone.
Or, commits suicide. She took some big blows this season.

I don’t think it’s realistic to end the series with a main character being pregnant and not having the pregnancy be resolved either by a baby being born or by the pregnancy ending. It’s not a neat closure otherwise. I think the series will somehow need to complete her pregnancy arch- either by shiv having the baby, miscarrying, aborting, or committing suicide.

I don't see Shiv committing suicide because despite the challenges she's had this season, she seems to have held onto her sense of self-worth. She might feel extremely isolated, but I think she's suicidal.

There are a bunch of other characters who seem to be spiraling down and are self-medicating or in denial about their pain, and I think they are at much greater risk for self harm. Shiv, with all her faults, is "feeling her feelings" which my therapist always says is healthy even when it sucks.

That’s a good point. I just don’t know how they’re going to complete her pregnancy plot line in a satisfactory way with her still being pregnant and , at least so far, no one knowing about it!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here and I can't imagine Shiv "nursing" her baby...that's too intimate for her, she'll have the nanny bottle-feeding the baby.

But...I have a vibe that she and Tom may stick together after all that. BC they are in some sort of bond of toxicity, and the baby is the latest excuse to intermingle again.

I think Shiv has a very developed sense of wanting to be ... something. "Something" meaning someone of importance with a particular label applied. She was the family outsider with a career in political advising. She was the young female CEO to be that was going to take Waystar into the future. Then she was the behind the scenes player that would cement her father's legacy while she started something new.

She has no desire to fade into the background. I think half the reason she kept this baby was for her father to have a grandchild from his favorite to dote on (or so she hoped). I think she stays with/allies with Tom in order to stay relevant. I think it's also possible that Tom coerces/blackmails her into this. The series closer should be the opening credits but with the kids edited in as adults, including this baby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:shiv doesn't have the suicide vibe

+1

[Anonymous]

I personally saw this episode as a possible foreshadowing of 2024 and it made me sick. I was down all night.

[Anonymous]

Besides the illegality issue, why did Shiv want Matsson to announce the issue with his India numbers immediately?

Did Kendall ever share with Shiv that he was hoping to buy GoJo? I know Shiv knows that Kendall wants to make it impossible for GoJo to buy Waystar, but I don't know if she knows that announcing the numbers could leave GoJo vulnerable to takeover by Waystar, potentially? Why, in talking to Matsson about how they are going to deal with the nazi president, was Shiv insistent about announcing the numbers?

I still think she will use Kendall's waiter murder somehow, but the odds of it get smaller as fewer episodes remain.

Listening to Sarah Snook talk about this season, it sounded like either she comes out on top in the end or she wanted to send out the misdirection that she comes out on top in the end. I'm starting to think it was misdirection, because even if she uses Kendall's waiter murder, I can't see her spinning this to get her to the top of the heap in the end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here and I can't imagine Shiv "nursing" her baby...that's too intimate for her, she'll have the nanny bottle-feeding the baby.

But...I have a vibe that she and Tom may stick together after all that. BC they are in some sort of bond of toxicity, and the baby is the latest excuse to intermingle again.

I think Shiv has a very developed sense of wanting to be ... something. "Something" meaning someone of importance with a particular label applied. She was the family outsider with a career in political advising. She was the young female CEO to be that was going to take Waystar into the future. Then she was the behind the scenes player that would cement her father's legacy while she started something new.

She has no desire to fade into the background. I think half the reason she kept this baby was for her father to have a grandchild from his favorite to dote on (or so she hoped). I think she stays with/allies with Tom in order to stay relevant. I think it's also possible that Tom coerces/blackmails her into this. The series closer should be the opening credits but with the kids edited in as adults, including this baby.

That would be an amazing way to end the series, and it would be in the same style as the series - not some awkward fast forward a year nonsense. The opening credits, but as closing credits, with the current cast 10 years in the future doing whatever they’re up to. And it would make sense with the title of the series- basically, things still going forward as they’ve always been.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Besides the illegality issue, why did Shiv want Matsson to announce the issue with his India numbers immediately?

Did Kendall ever share with Shiv that he was hoping to buy GoJo? I know Shiv knows that Kendall wants to make it impossible for GoJo to buy Waystar, but I don't know if she knows that announcing the numbers could leave GoJo vulnerable to takeover by Waystar, potentially? Why, in talking to Matsson about how they are going to deal with the nazi president, was Shiv insistent about announcing the numbers?

I still think she will use Kendall's waiter murder somehow, but the odds of it get smaller as fewer episodes remain.

Listening to Sarah Snook talk about this season, it sounded like either she comes out on top in the end or she wanted to send out the misdirection that she comes out on top in the end. I'm starting to think it was misdirection, because even if she uses Kendall's waiter murder, I can't see her spinning this to get her to the top of the heap in the end.

To explain Shiv's thinking on the GoJo numbers

- To start, the longer they hold onto them, the worse it is for Matsson because he has a fiduciary duty to disclose something like this and if he hides it, it exposes him to liability. So it's a bit of a ticking time bomb.

- But the timing of release matters for two reason. First, because of the impact on the GoJo deal. Shiv knows Roman and Kendall are making a deal with Matsson to get him to reject the acquisition (using antitrust principles under the FTC to say it's too much media consolidation -- they don't spell this out but it's heavily implied). So Shiv is trying to time the release of his numbers so they don't help Roman and Kendall. This part was a bit muddy to me but it appears in her calls to Matsson that she's watching Ken/Roman and the Mencken situation to see if they can spin it to their advantage, or at least avoid walking into a trap.

- But her call at the end to Matsson to tell him to release quickly is easier to understand. The media is about to lose its mind over the election fiasco with Mencken declaring victory, Jimenez challenging that, what to do about the burned ballots, etc. It's a good time to dump bad news without attracting a lot of attention because everyone will be focused on the election.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I personally saw this episode as a possible foreshadowing of 2024 and it made me sick. I was down all night.

I agree. I found it very sickening to watch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Poor Tom

Tom will bounce back. Maybe he doesn’t have love, but he can spill the beans about so much that his financial position is secure whether it’s inside or outside ATN. He knows Shiv’s been negotiating with Mattson, he knows about the ship scandal, and he knows what Kendall did to the Living+ forecasts.

And will he have a role if Shiv has her child? Such as sharing custody or full custody. Because let’s face it, everybody is right about Shiv, just like Kendall she’s too damaged to be a great parent. That is, if Shiv is actually carrying Tom’s child and there’s no big reveal about the father.

Shiv is going to go through with the abortion that I had posited she was contemplating (a few weeks ago). Especially after what Tom said about her being a terrible (hypothetical) mother. She knows this is true. Mark it.

You need to give up on this weird imaginary abortion plot line

Just wait. And what better way to hurt Tom deeply, which is what she now truly wants to do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NPR got it exactly right:

"The tension in Succession has always been that everybody knew these people were terrible, but they were also human. They could be, in some moments, kind or funny or even insightful. They could certainly be legitimately in pain. Still terrible people — but rounded-out human characters with stories and arcs. This episode is the one where I think the fundamental point of the entire enterprise is made: Their complicated humanity is genuine but so what? Sad, jealous, hurt, abused, mistreated, conflicted, they are all these things. But they operate upon the wider world as instruments of destruction in the lives of real people, and in this episode, the magnitude of that destruction is pushed right up to the front edge of the stage."

Yes to all of this -- I can tell it's Linda Holmes without checking and she nails it.

Waiting for the posters who want to tell us all that the show "isn't that deep!" and that it's still fun to pick one of these grotesque humans and root for them to win. Or the poster who though Roman would make a fun dinner guest.

It's all fun and games until the little billionaire sociopaths destroy democracy and get a bunch of people killed. And even then, it's still a game to them.

Why do you even watch if you hate the show and everybody in it so much?

I love the show. I'm not a simpleton who needs all the characters in a story to be likable or sympathetic in order to get something out of the story itself.

Who exactly do you LIKE on the show, and why? I don't mean who do you find funny (I think they can all be quite funny) or whose story you are interested in (I find the story fascinating), I mean who do you actually like as in "I think this is a cool person and I would be friends with them in real life"?

OMG. So you're going to double-down on this idiocy?
DP