Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Criticism of Israel is 100% valid. The issue is it too often comes from antisemites who would be anywhere from thrilled to indifferent if Jews were the ones dying. We know this because that is how these people reacted on October 7th. So I always look at this thread with a heavy and suspicious heart seeing some of the things being posted. Haaretz.com is a MUCH better place to look at Israel with a very critical eye but away from this type of element. Just a FYI for someone looking to actually get informed beyond repetitive buzzwords.

+1

I asked Jeff if we could have a thread for people who don't hate Jews and don't hate Israel but do have a critical eye and want, need, nuanced conversation. He said no, it would be too much work to moderate. But I wish more people like you were here talking.

NP: Please stop weaponising anti-semitism. Nobody is against Judaism.

People are against racism and indiscriminate killing of civilians. People are against the entitlement of a group of Americans that insist on supporting this genocide by arming Israel to the teeth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know other PPs have mentioned this article, but I think this is a really important report from 972 magazine, and would recommend you all check it out. They have done great investigative reporting during this war.

"In an unprecedented move, according to two of the sources, the army also decided during the first weeks of the war that, for every junior Hamas operative that Lavender marked, it was permissible to kill up to 15 or 20 civilians; in the past, the military did not authorize any “collateral damage” during assassinations of low-ranking militants. The sources added that, in the event that the target was a senior Hamas official with the rank of battalion or brigade commander, the army on several occasions authorized the killing of more than 100 civilians in the assassination of a single commander.

First, we explain the Lavender machine itself, which marked tens of thousands of Palestinians using AI. Second, we reveal the “Where’s Daddy?” system, which tracked these targets and signaled to the army when they entered their family homes. Third, we describe how “dumb” bombs were chosen to strike these homes.

Fourth, we explain how the army loosened the permitted number of civilians who could be killed during the bombing of a target. Fifth, we note how automated software inaccurately calculated the amount of non-combatants in each household. And sixth, we show how on several occasions, when a home was struck, usually at night, the individual target was sometimes not inside at all, because military officers did not verify the information in real time."

https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/

For example, sources explained that the Lavender machine sometimes mistakenly flagged individuals who had communication patterns similar to known Hamas or PIJ operatives — including police and civil defense workers, militants’ relatives, residents who happened to have a name and nickname identical to that of an operative, and Gazans who used a device that once belonged to a Hamas operative.

This is a disturbing read. Reminds me of the Terminator when he kills several women named Sarah Connor before finding the real one.

This really isn't getting anywhere near the attention it deserves. They are letting an AI create a kill list and execute it with 95%+ civilian casualties. What could possibly go wrong?

Yes, there are so many terrible things in this article.

They fed data into the AI of non-militant Hamas members, such as police officers, and the AI used that data to put people on the kill list who had no affiliation with hamas, like members of the civil defense.

They tracked targets to their homes and dropped the bombs there when they were with their families, using dumb bombs so as to not waste smart bombs on low level grunts.

The acceptable civilian casualty number was 15 or more for low level operatives and up to 300 civilian deaths for higher level figures. For comparison, the article quotes a US military figure who gave the acceptable number as 0 for low level operatives and 30 for OBL in the war on terror.

The only thing verified on the kill list was if the name provided was a male. No other questioning of the AI generated kill list.

The kill list was not only limited to adults, but included minors.

[Anonymous]

And there will be zero consequences

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, the fallout from World Kitchen is bad. Pro-Israel folks are now highly critical of Netanyahu. The American people are turning away from Israel. They’re not supporting Hamas but they’re not supporting Israel.

If you'd have listened to us for one second, you'd have known we were highly critical of Netanyahu all along.

This doesn't make us turn against Israel. When you weren't shouting at us and calling us horrible names, we were trying to explain our point of view. But none of you listen.

You were “highly critical”, but you did nothing.

You have been the bystanders to this all along— the exact bystanders who have been condemned in every other horror of this and the last century.

what the f do you wnt us to do? march with the ceasefire now people who target jewish-owned businesses and are so polarizing that they're actually turning people away from their cause?

guess what - we're jewish, not israeli. and even israelis, protesting by the thousands, haven't been able to get netanyahu to change/

i guess we could target our space lasers right at bibi's house - you're right, we should have thought of that earlier.

Well, if Israelis, in a democracy, can't get rid of Bibi, how do you expect Gazans to get rid of Hamas?

THEY CAN WHEN THERE IS AN ELECTION

There are thousands and thousands of Israels out in the street protesting Netanyahu and protesting this war, and protesting to try to get the government to do more to get the hostages back.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m really starting to think the WCK attack is a turning point.

My hopeful, optimistic, probably wrong take is that this gives an opportunity for everyone to hit pause. Including, maybe especially, Israel. This gives them the opportunity to say: we need to end this war, Hamas, come to the table and none of us will leave until we have a deal. But that probably won't happen.

Hamas set out to destroy Israel and Netanyahu is helping them do it at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, the fallout from World Kitchen is bad. Pro-Israel folks are now highly critical of Netanyahu. The American people are turning away from Israel. They’re not supporting Hamas but they’re not supporting Israel.

If you'd have listened to us for one second, you'd have known we were highly critical of Netanyahu all along.

This doesn't make us turn against Israel. When you weren't shouting at us and calling us horrible names, we were trying to explain our point of view. But none of you listen.

You were “highly critical”, but you did nothing.

You have been the bystanders to this all along— the exact bystanders who have been condemned in every other horror of this and the last century.

NP. did nothing? what exactly do you expect us to do? we are US citizens, not israeli. we don’t vote in israel.

DP. Please call your senators, rep, and the White House. Let them know that you are Jewish and you don't support the policies of Israel in this war and want military aid to be conditional. Speak out against AIPAC. Have conversations with your family and friends who are staunchly pro-Israel and educate them about what Israel is doing.

No. That's not what any of us who support Israel. and hate this war, would do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How will Israel eliminate all of Hamas? Do they have some special facial characteristic to identify themselves as Hamas? Tattooss? DNA? Or does Israel have a list of every member?

How will Israel eliminate Hamas if they immediately terminate their war this very second?

I’ve been one of the most vocal Israel supporters in this thread - which means Jeff will almost surely delete this post - but this is what frustrates me and many other Israel supporters and Jewish people. Since the beginning we have very much been asking for an alternative, another way to end the hostilities and eliminate Hamas - a widely recognized terrorist organization whose primary goal remains the genocide of the Israeli (and arguably Jewish) people - and protect Israel from the ongoing assault.

And nobody ever has even attempted to provide this answer, not on here, not on TikTok, not in the protests. It’s all “Ceasefire now! Ceasefire tomorrow! Ceasefire Forever!” But Israel has been negotiating for a ceasefire for over a month now, and it is Hamas that has refused all offers.

So what is Israel supposed to do? Is Israel supposed to just unilaterally declare a one sided ceasefire, letting Hamas continue to bombard their country and trounce over their borders in repeated recreations of 10/7? Because “The Iron Dome is 100% effective and Hamas hasn’t proven to be able to get past Israeli defenses” according to these people?

There has never been an answer, and I think it stems from a deep misunderstanding of the reality of war, coming from someone who has lived in a war zone before (and no, before you say anything, that war zone was not Israel).

There are no magic new missiles that home in on Hamas membership cards, there are no x-ray goggles for the IDF to use to check whether or not the metal rod behind the back of a Palestinian running full speed at their position is part of an RPG they plan to pull out to fire apron them, or from a medical stretcher because they are an EMT trying to run in to save dying civilians. There is no way to know.

In fact, it’s downright impressive the targeting we have now. In WWII, ‘targeting’ a bomb strike was pointing a bunch of planes towards a major city and telling them to drop bombs on anything that was made of metal.

+100
Not to mention, it is Hamas who has broken ceasefires, over and over again, dating back many years. They are terrorists, plain and simple, and as such, need to be eradicated. Anyone arguing otherwise is a Hamas supporter.

How old are you, eight? Hamas is a terrorist organization. They break ceasefires. Israel, on the other hand, is supposedly a recognized nation state and signatory to multiple international treaties. Israel has been enabling settlers in the West Bank, which also violates treaties, over and over and over agin. They are terrorists, instilling fear and unleashing violence onto Palestinian families living the the West Bank.

The only thing correct in your post is the bolded. And Israel has the right to defend themselves against a terrorist organization that has been terrorizing them for decades and wants them wiped out. It is long past time for Hamas to be wiped out.

AND Hamas and Palestinians have a right to defend themselves from the tyranny of Israel.

I guess there's no choice but to keep bombing Gaza if that is what people believe.

Hamas does not exist in a vacuum. If your land was stolen, your people killed and your rights eliminated, you would take up arms and fight back too!

and then you'd be bombed into annihilation.

You think because you are “chosen”, you have the right to annihilate others. Got it.

no, i think when someone is attacked by terrorists who say they will do the same over and over, it's f idiotic to think there is going to be any response other than fighting back. jesus, you f idiots make people like me who WANT to support an end to this war dig in even further in support of it. you are so gd self-defeating and stupid.

Sorry but Isreal has been terrorizing Palestinians for decades. Does the murder of innocent civilians, theft of land, restrictions of rights and freedom of movement not constitute terrorism in your view?

as i said - keep on. you're losing support every time you talk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Criticism of Israel is 100% valid. The issue is it too often comes from antisemites who would be anywhere from thrilled to indifferent if Jews were the ones dying. We know this because that is how these people reacted on October 7th. So I always look at this thread with a heavy and suspicious heart seeing some of the things being posted. Haaretz.com is a MUCH better place to look at Israel with a very critical eye but away from this type of element. Just a FYI for someone looking to actually get informed beyond repetitive buzzwords.

+1

I asked Jeff if we could have a thread for people who don't hate Jews and don't hate Israel but do have a critical eye and want, need, nuanced conversation. He said no, it would be too much work to moderate. But I wish more people like you were here talking.

NP: Please stop weaponising anti-semitism. Nobody is against Judaism.

People are against racism and indiscriminate killing of civilians. People are against the entitlement of a group of Americans that insist on supporting this genocide by arming Israel to the teeth.

That is ABSOLUTELY not true, and please stop pretending that anti-semitism hasn't poisoned this whole conversation.

[Anonymous]

I’m sorry but let’s call a spade a spade.

A little Palestinian America boy was stabbed to death in Chicago. Three Palestinian American boys were shot and one was a paralyzed in Vermont. It’s Arabs that are suffering. I don’t want to compare anti-semitism (I agree it exists) but you sound like the boy who cried wolf. You are not the ones suffering right now HERE or THERE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Criticism of Israel is 100% valid. The issue is it too often comes from antisemites who would be anywhere from thrilled to indifferent if Jews were the ones dying. We know this because that is how these people reacted on October 7th. So I always look at this thread with a heavy and suspicious heart seeing some of the things being posted. Haaretz.com is a MUCH better place to look at Israel with a very critical eye but away from this type of element. Just a FYI for someone looking to actually get informed beyond repetitive buzzwords.

+1

I asked Jeff if we could have a thread for people who don't hate Jews and don't hate Israel but do have a critical eye and want, need, nuanced conversation. He said no, it would be too much work to moderate. But I wish more people like you were here talking.

NP: Please stop weaponising anti-semitism. Nobody is against Judaism.

People are against racism and indiscriminate killing of civilians. People are against the entitlement of a group of Americans that insist on supporting this genocide by arming Israel to the teeth.

That is ABSOLUTELY not true, and please stop pretending that anti-semitism hasn't poisoned this whole conversation.

Your complete utter lack of empathy for people outside of your community is what is poisoning the conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, the fallout from World Kitchen is bad. Pro-Israel folks are now highly critical of Netanyahu. The American people are turning away from Israel. They’re not supporting Hamas but they’re not supporting Israel.

If you'd have listened to us for one second, you'd have known we were highly critical of Netanyahu all along.

This doesn't make us turn against Israel. When you weren't shouting at us and calling us horrible names, we were trying to explain our point of view. But none of you listen.

You were “highly critical”, but you did nothing.

You have been the bystanders to this all along— the exact bystanders who have been condemned in every other horror of this and the last century.

what the f do you wnt us to do? march with the ceasefire now people who target jewish-owned businesses and are so polarizing that they're actually turning people away from their cause?

guess what - we're jewish, not israeli. and even israelis, protesting by the thousands, haven't been able to get netanyahu to change/

i guess we could target our space lasers right at bibi's house - you're right, we should have thought of that earlier.

Well, if Israelis, in a democracy, can't get rid of Bibi, how do you expect Gazans to get rid of Hamas?

THEY CAN WHEN THERE IS AN ELECTION

There are thousands and thousands of Israels out in the street protesting Netanyahu and protesting this war, and protesting to try to get the government to do more to get the hostages back.

he was just reelected. Any new government is going to be to his right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, the fallout from World Kitchen is bad. Pro-Israel folks are now highly critical of Netanyahu. The American people are turning away from Israel. They’re not supporting Hamas but they’re not supporting Israel.

If you'd have listened to us for one second, you'd have known we were highly critical of Netanyahu all along.

This doesn't make us turn against Israel. When you weren't shouting at us and calling us horrible names, we were trying to explain our point of view. But none of you listen.

You were “highly critical”, but you did nothing.

You have been the bystanders to this all along— the exact bystanders who have been condemned in every other horror of this and the last century.

NP. did nothing? what exactly do you expect us to do? we are US citizens, not israeli. we don’t vote in israel.

DP. Please call your senators, rep, and the White House. Let them know that you are Jewish and you don't support the policies of Israel in this war and want military aid to be conditional. Speak out against AIPAC. Have conversations with your family and friends who are staunchly pro-Israel and educate them about what Israel is doing.

No. That's not what any of us who support Israel. and hate this war, would do.

Can I ask you why not if you hate this war?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is a thoughtful piece by Tony Greenstein about how Zionists appropriate "Holocaust trauma" to justify the genocide of Palestinians and dehumanize them as "Arab Nazis"
https://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-holocaust-trauma-myth/45376

Oh, wonderful - Electronic Intifada.

And a well-written and thoughtful article that helps explain Israel's irrational, racist hatred of Palestinians, the very people it has most wronged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Man, the fallout from World Kitchen is bad. Pro-Israel folks are now highly critical of Netanyahu. The American people are turning away from Israel. They’re not supporting Hamas but they’re not supporting Israel.

If you'd have listened to us for one second, you'd have known we were highly critical of Netanyahu all along.

This doesn't make us turn against Israel. When you weren't shouting at us and calling us horrible names, we were trying to explain our point of view. But none of you listen.

You were “highly critical”, but you did nothing.

You have been the bystanders to this all along— the exact bystanders who have been condemned in every other horror of this and the last century.

what the f do you wnt us to do? march with the ceasefire now people who target jewish-owned businesses and are so polarizing that they're actually turning people away from their cause?

guess what - we're jewish, not israeli. and even israelis, protesting by the thousands, haven't been able to get netanyahu to change/

i guess we could target our space lasers right at bibi's house - you're right, we should have thought of that earlier.

Well, if Israelis, in a democracy, can't get rid of Bibi, how do you expect Gazans to get rid of Hamas?

THEY CAN WHEN THERE IS AN ELECTION

There are thousands and thousands of Israels out in the street protesting Netanyahu and protesting this war, and protesting to try to get the government to do more to get the hostages back.

Why do Israelis keep electing him?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m really starting to think the WCK attack is a turning point.

My hopeful, optimistic, probably wrong take is that this gives an opportunity for everyone to hit pause. Including, maybe especially, Israel. This gives them the opportunity to say: we need to end this war, Hamas, come to the table and none of us will leave until we have a deal. But that probably won't happen.

Hamas set out to destroy Israel and Netanyahu is helping them do it at this point.

What happened to the Ramadan cease fire?

Maybe you should ask Bibi/Israelis to come to the table first because they have been an equal stumbling block in the quest for peace and a two-state solution. Plus, at this point Israel is now the aggressor and oppressor committing genocide.