UVA Microaggression case

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He asked 3 questions to a presenter. This issue was presenting one account of anecdotal evidence as scientific fact. You learn in elementary science fair to have more than one example.

Doctors must know how to read scientific journals and trials to parse out fact from ‘placebo’.

If asking 3 valid questions about what is supposed to be a well funded research project gets the wheels spinning to get a student kicked out of school by deans and professors, there is a much greater problem here.

If this goes against the ‘values’ of a school, was that made clear before starting the school. Was ‘do not question’ a value they stated that could lead to expulsion?

The professors explained that they were using anecdotes to illustrate not as scientific proof.

He asked his 2nd question and the presenter said it would be his last question. 2 is reasonable in this situation, one and follow up.

After she answered his 2nd question he insisted on another follow up. Another professor stepped in to answer the 3rd question and noted he seemed frustrated and moved on to another person’s question.

So his question(s) were not his issue, his issue was his unprofessionalism.

Also, if you listen to the 2nd audio with the dean he sounds unstable. He tries very hard in both situations to keep his voice calm but his breathing and tone are agitated.

His problem is that he lacks the ability to control his emotions when somebody disagrees with him.

When offered counseling which can help with this, he refused.

If this is your definition of "unprofessional behavior," I sure would hate to work for you. I can assure you that I deal with far more extreme examples, daily, from employees that I work with. This is not "unprofessional behavior" to have an agitated breathing pattern and tone.

You have no idea that he generallylacks the ability to control emotions when someone disagrees with him, beyond this one small example, which is debatable at best.

And why the hell should he enter "counseling" for something this subjective and, frankly, stupid? Based on your criteria here, most of the posters on this thread should be in "counseling" because they don't know how to play nice with each other. Are you going to turn us all over to the moderator, because you can't stand to see that we disagree with you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He asked 3 questions to a presenter. This issue was presenting one account of anecdotal evidence as scientific fact. You learn in elementary science fair to have more than one example.

Doctors must know how to read scientific journals and trials to parse out fact from ‘placebo’.

If asking 3 valid questions about what is supposed to be a well funded research project gets the wheels spinning to get a student kicked out of school by deans and professors, there is a much greater problem here.

If this goes against the ‘values’ of a school, was that made clear before starting the school. Was ‘do not question’ a value they stated that could lead to expulsion?

The professors explained that they were using anecdotes to illustrate not as scientific proof.

He asked his 2nd question and the presenter said it would be his last question. 2 is reasonable in this situation, one and follow up.

After she answered his 2nd question he insisted on another follow up. Another professor stepped in to answer the 3rd question and noted he seemed frustrated and moved on to another person’s question.

So his question(s) were not his issue, his issue was his unprofessionalism.

Also, if you listen to the 2nd audio with the dean he sounds unstable. He tries very hard in both situations to keep his voice calm but his breathing and tone are agitated.

His problem is that he lacks the ability to control his emotions when somebody disagrees with him.

When offered counseling which can help with this, he refused.

If this is your definition of "unprofessional behavior," I sure would hate to work for you. I can assure you that I deal with far more extreme examples, daily, from employees that I work with. This is not "unprofessional behavior" to have an agitated breathing pattern and tone.

You have no idea that he generallylacks the ability to control emotions when someone disagrees with him, beyond this one small example, which is debatable at best.

And why the hell should he enter "counseling" for something this subjective and, frankly, stupid? Based on your criteria here, most of the posters on this thread should be in "counseling" because they don't know how to play nice with each other. Are you going to turn us all over to the moderator, because you can't stand to see that we disagree with you?

NP, circumstances matter. I have been treated horribly by a few colleagues, that is true. That doesn't make it OK, and it doesn't mean it's ok that my office does nothing about it.

And even the evilest of my colleagues knows how to comport themselves during a speaker's panel, during a hearing, and in a dr's office.

The guy has emotional problems and it's noticeable enough that it made others at UVA uncomfortable. Given the increase in mental health related violence in this country, specifically in schools, I have to approve of their taking steps to address this student's palpable hostility.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He asked 3 questions to a presenter. This issue was presenting one account of anecdotal evidence as scientific fact. You learn in elementary science fair to have more than one example.

Doctors must know how to read scientific journals and trials to parse out fact from ‘placebo’.

If asking 3 valid questions about what is supposed to be a well funded research project gets the wheels spinning to get a student kicked out of school by deans and professors, there is a much greater problem here.

If this goes against the ‘values’ of a school, was that made clear before starting the school. Was ‘do not question’ a value they stated that could lead to expulsion?

The professors explained that they were using anecdotes to illustrate not as scientific proof.

He asked his 2nd question and the presenter said it would be his last question. 2 is reasonable in this situation, one and follow up.

After she answered his 2nd question he insisted on another follow up. Another professor stepped in to answer the 3rd question and noted he seemed frustrated and moved on to another person’s question.

So his question(s) were not his issue, his issue was his unprofessionalism.

Also, if you listen to the 2nd audio with the dean he sounds unstable. He tries very hard in both situations to keep his voice calm but his breathing and tone are agitated.

His problem is that he lacks the ability to control his emotions when somebody disagrees with him.

When offered counseling which can help with this, he refused.

If this is your definition of "unprofessional behavior," I sure would hate to work for you. I can assure you that I deal with far more extreme examples, daily, from employees that I work with. This is not "unprofessional behavior" to have an agitated breathing pattern and tone.

You have no idea that he generallylacks the ability to control emotions when someone disagrees with him, beyond this one small example, which is debatable at best.

And why the hell should he enter "counseling" for something this subjective and, frankly, stupid? Based on your criteria here, most of the posters on this thread should be in "counseling" because they don't know how to play nice with each other. Are you going to turn us all over to the moderator, because you can't stand to see that we disagree with you?

Just because you work in a toxic environment doesn’t mean everybody had too. Maybe truck drivers have a different expectation of behavior than a doctor in training.

There were multiple examples. This is just one of many. The presenter said he seemed frustrated and he does.

Truthfully you sound like you could benefit from counseling.

If you become belligerent I will report you and Jeff will delete your comment, so yes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another take

https://whitehotharlots.tumblr.com/post/647740298162831360/a-movement-that-cannot-be-criticized-cannot?fbclid=IwAR3_k1UpF1u1Ov3PG61173ri2Ps1tp8NA5uAKwkNPfIzi2OxNXIY4f3uZx4

I am listening to the audio. He is being hostile. His voice is almost trembling in anger to my ears.

He is using polite language but the delivery is hostile. Also she also said she was moving on to another questioner but he interjected again.

Also clearly the presenters try to politely defuse him several times but he just keeps objecting in a dogged manner.

So basically he behaved poorly, he was called out, and he doubled down on behaving poorly.

I think he made his point in his first or second "question" that in his opinion this is pseudo science, not based in fact, based in opinion, and that he does not respect the presenters as authorities on this topic. He just wouldn't stop.

Your take is interesting. I didn’t hear anger or aggression, I heard frustration and fear. As a matter of fact, I thought a couple of the questioners were downright hostile to him. He was being railroaded which increased his anxiety and frustration. Really sad. It was telling that no patient had ever complained him. I hope he wis the case

[Anonymous]

I hope that Nora Kern and all of those involved face some sort of punishment. She filed a complaint because someone asked a legitimate question. She got offended because deep down inside she knew that he was right. Looks like the nerds from high school are turning into bullies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I hope that Nora Kern and all of those involved face some sort of punishment. She filed a complaint because someone asked a legitimate question. She got offended because deep down inside she knew that he was right. Looks like the nerds from high school are turning into bullies.

^^^ wrong side of history

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I hope that Nora Kern and all of those involved face some sort of punishment. She filed a complaint because someone asked a legitimate question. She got offended because deep down inside she knew that he was right. Looks like the nerds from high school are turning into bullies.

+1. Such a strange case. Kieran had apparently done well his first year of med school and was even coauthor of a research article.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31700237/

If he had a sudden change in behavior, why wasn’t the school reaching out and trying to help him?

[Anonymous]

This is a situation straight up out of Kafka.

If you haven't been in a Kafka-esque situation, you should not be questioning the stability of the student.

[Anonymous]

NP, circumstances matter. I have been treated horribly by a few colleagues, that is true. That doesn't make it OK, and it doesn't mean it's ok that my office does nothing about it.

And even the evilest of my colleagues knows how to comport themselves during a speaker's panel, during a hearing, and in a dr's office.

The guy has emotional problems and it's noticeable enough that it made others at UVA uncomfortable. Given the increase in mental health related violence in this country, specifically in schools, I have to approve of their taking steps to address this student's palpable hostility.

If accelerated breathing patterns and changes in vocal pitch are enough boot people, only psychopaths would make it through college, much less med school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I hope that Nora Kern and all of those involved face some sort of punishment. She filed a complaint because someone asked a legitimate question. She got offended because deep down inside she knew that he was right. Looks like the nerds from high school are turning into bullies.

^^^ wrong side of history

And deep down she knows she is right, or at least believes without question she is right. This type of stuff is dogma, like religion for them. Just like religions demand purity and expel those who are schismatics/heretics, so to does this movement.

[Anonymous]

I had a professor in law school who would teach about microaggressions etc rather than the law. She considered critical questions to be microaggressions (if you were white) but, unlike this guy, I learned to keep my mouth shut so I could get a job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I had a professor in law school who would teach about microaggressions etc rather than the law. She considered critical questions to be microaggressions (if you were white) but, unlike this guy, I learned to keep my mouth shut so I could get a job.

that’s a shame because there are a lot of interesting legal questions around microaggressions. a talented professor could simultaneously deliver content on how microaggression has a real subjective impact on some people, and how the law can or cannot take it into account. 1st amendment v workplace harassment law. all law students ought to be able to benefit from an approach like that. not that dissimilar to how rape is taught in crim law. the professors have to teach the difficult cases and can’t just say “all victims are right.”

[Anonymous]

Not surprised to read this. I attended UVA School of Nursing years ago and it was pretty apparent that to do well one needed to toe the line and not question authority. I have good self preservation skills so was able to do well, but if I had spoken up about various issues I saw there I’m sure I would have fallen into the trap. “Concern”> recommendation for counseling > disciplinary action. Kieran’s problem was he got rattled and didn’t grovel enough. (perhaps some paranoia as well?who knows)

[Anonymous]

It only confirms my impressions that colleges in VA are full of bullies, and racists.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not surprised to read this. I attended UVA School of Nursing years ago and it was pretty apparent that to do well one needed to toe the line and not question authority. I have good self preservation skills so was able to do well, but if I had spoken up about various issues I saw there I’m sure I would have fallen into the trap. “Concern”> recommendation for counseling > disciplinary action. Kieran’s problem was he got rattled and didn’t grovel enough. (perhaps some paranoia as well?who knows)

It's almost like the health care field, especially in a hospital setting, his hierarchal or something.