For people who say "school is not for childcare"...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It means you need to figure it out. Lots of different ways to do it but stop putting your responsibilities on someone else. One parent, family, hire someone, day cares.

This is a horrifically libertarian or hyperindividualist view which makes me sad yet captures all the decay in our society. We need to have a safety net of some kind. We need to stop saying millions of children are “not our responsibility”. Are they the responsibility of the schools? Yes, usually, and now we are in crisis which requires us to come together, not push this off onto individuals who most of the time cannot just pívot away from their jobs.

They are your kids. You need to take care of them and stop expecting others to. Your kids are not my problem. Pay for child care. Downsize your house and cars if you need to. Many of us make it work just fine. School is for education. Education is now online for safety.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We can only even have this argument because technology allows for "distance learning". A few decades ago, schools would just have closed, and then they wouldn't have been providing education OR child care. Before now, the child care and education were inseparable because kids had to be in person to do it.

Right, and I think that's clouding the discussion. I have an incoming kindergartener who can't read. (We're working on it, he knows some sight words and is getting better at sounding them out, but he isn't a comfortable, fluent, independent reader.) I'm frankly quite skeptical that they ARE separable. I suspect the parents or whoever is doing the childcare will also be doing an equal amount of the education as the teacher, if not more. I suspect kids will not learn as much if they have working parents, which would indicate that education is not something you can deliver at arm's reach. These are just my suspicions. I'd like to be wrong.

Then teach your kid to read like the rest of us did. You still need to supplement at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the same work. There's overlap, but it isn't equivalent.

Do you think it's disrespectful for a woman doctor to correct someone who refers to her as a nurse? (Or vice versa?) Or are we all required to call everything the same?

Actually yes, in many cases I do. And I live that myself. I am in a male-dominated profession that requires advanced degrees. During the course of my career, I have been mistaken for an assistant, a secretary, a SAHM, and more multiple times. When that happens, I almost never correct people. I will only correct people if it would be deceptive not to.correct them. But otherwise, yes, I do think it's disrespectful. I reject the concept that it degrades me to have people think I am an admin or a secretary or a SAHM or whatever. I respect everyone who fills those roles. I would not correct someone who thought that I was a childcare worker. I think highly of childcare workers, and it's no insult to be confused with one. I will never promote myself by being disrespectful of the career of someone else. If I need to do that, I've done something wrong.

So when I hear teachers and unions talk disparagingly about how school isn't childcare, what I hear is disappointing disparagement and disrespect towards childcare workers. It has a classist and racist edge to it that makes me very uncomfortable.

I don't know about your job, but you don't take medical advice from a nurse to be of a different level than medical advice about diagnosis and treatment from a licensed physician?

You don't see why identifying yourself correctly is or isn't important to a patient? Not just a matter of ego or hierarchy?

Wow. I'll leave it at that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the same work. There's overlap, but it isn't equivalent.

Do you think it's disrespectful for a woman doctor to correct someone who refers to her as a nurse? (Or vice versa?) Or are we all required to call everything the same?

Actually yes, in many cases I do. And I live that myself. I am in a male-dominated profession that requires advanced degrees. During the course of my career, I have been mistaken for an assistant, a secretary, a SAHM, and more multiple times. When that happens, I almost never correct people. I will only correct people if it would be deceptive not to.correct them. But otherwise, yes, I do think it's disrespectful. I reject the concept that it degrades me to have people think I am an admin or a secretary or a SAHM or whatever. I respect everyone who fills those roles. I would not correct someone who thought that I was a childcare worker. I think highly of childcare workers, and it's no insult to be confused with one. I will never promote myself by being disrespectful of the career of someone else. If I need to do that, I've done something wrong.

So when I hear teachers and unions talk disparagingly about how school isn't childcare, what I hear is disappointing disparagement and disrespect towards childcare workers. It has a classist and racist edge to it that makes me very uncomfortable.

I don't know about your job, but you don't take medical advice from a nurse to be of a different level than medical advice about diagnosis and treatment from a licensed physician?

You don't see why identifying yourself correctly is or isn't important to a patient? Not just a matter of ego or hierarchy?

Wow. I'll leave it at that.

What on earth are you talking about? Nobody is literally confused about the identity of teachers. You are only insisting that school isn't childcare for personal ego, classist, and racist reasons. Let's be crystal clear about what is going on here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We can only even have this argument because technology allows for "distance learning". A few decades ago, schools would just have closed, and then they wouldn't have been providing education OR child care. Before now, the child care and education were inseparable because kids had to be in person to do it.

Right, and I think that's clouding the discussion. I have an incoming kindergartener who can't read. (We're working on it, he knows some sight words and is getting better at sounding them out, but he isn't a comfortable, fluent, independent reader.) I'm frankly quite skeptical that they ARE separable. I suspect the parents or whoever is doing the childcare will also be doing an equal amount of the education as the teacher, if not more. I suspect kids will not learn as much if they have working parents, which would indicate that education is not something you can deliver at arm's reach. These are just my suspicions. I'd like to be wrong.

Then teach your kid to read like the rest of us did. You still need to supplement at home.

I'm working on it, thanks. My point in mentioning that was that my kid can't even do the first step in DL on his own, which is read the schedule. This is going to take intensive parental involvement. Did you "supplement at home" by leaving your workplace, showing up at your kid's school, finding the right workbook, and turning to the right page for every lesson, every day? Supplementing at home is practicing sounding out words after school and work. This is not the same at all and you're being totally disingenuous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the same work. There's overlap, but it isn't equivalent.

Do you think it's disrespectful for a woman doctor to correct someone who refers to her as a nurse? (Or vice versa?) Or are we all required to call everything the same?

Actually yes, in many cases I do. And I live that myself. I am in a male-dominated profession that requires advanced degrees. During the course of my career, I have been mistaken for an assistant, a secretary, a SAHM, and more multiple times. When that happens, I almost never correct people. I will only correct people if it would be deceptive not to.correct them. But otherwise, yes, I do think it's disrespectful. I reject the concept that it degrades me to have people think I am an admin or a secretary or a SAHM or whatever. I respect everyone who fills those roles. I would not correct someone who thought that I was a childcare worker. I think highly of childcare workers, and it's no insult to be confused with one. I will never promote myself by being disrespectful of the career of someone else. If I need to do that, I've done something wrong.

So when I hear teachers and unions talk disparagingly about how school isn't childcare, what I hear is disappointing disparagement and disrespect towards childcare workers. It has a classist and racist edge to it that makes me very uncomfortable.

I don't know about your job, but you don't take medical advice from a nurse to be of a different level than medical advice about diagnosis and treatment from a licensed physician?

You don't see why identifying yourself correctly is or isn't important to a patient? Not just a matter of ego or hierarchy?

Wow. I'll leave it at that.

This is more like saying "patient CARE? I went to med school and residency to practice medicine, not care for patients. That's what a nurse does." We know doctors don't change bedpans but trying to totally separate the care part from the knowledge part sounds a bit unkind toward both patients and nurses.

[Anonymous]

So much of this argument is based on the fact of mandatory attendance.....if it was optional and parents could make other arrangements then sure. Having children attend a program 6 hours a day every day precludes arrangement that Would work best for parents, and make school child care

[Anonymous]

Parents rely on schools to provide a safe supervised environment for children during the day. It's part of the fabric of our society. Take it away suddenly and don't be surprised when there are major logistical and societal problems.

Do you think there will be a defund the schools movement? How willing are people going to be to pay high property taxes to fund public schools if the schools no longer meet all the educational and childcare needs of families under a social contract as it has been understood for years?

[Anonymous]

So this whole debate is basically about the fragile ego of some teachers? Then get over yourselves, most if not all jobs have a less glamorous side! Society is not going to set up a massively wasteful parallel child care system just to coddle you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is ridiculous to say, “oh, I know that school as an institution has been providing childcare for the history of history, but that’s just ancillary to the mandate of education. I don’t know why everyone on earth can’t just whip up an easy solution for childcare that doesn’t involve the largest childcare institution in the world.”

Words mean things. Legislation means things.

If you want school to not just provide childcare by happenstance, but by part of the mandate, then lobby to change the mandate.

But there is a mandate. Countless Bd of Ed elections and school bond measures have been won on the promise of better education, better facilities, better child care and better social services. Local voters have voted in favor of child care countless times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the point is that childcare is not the primary purpose of school, if it were it would be open year round like daycare.

The school being open fall to spring is also an old concept when you needed kids at home for harvest in summer. That's completely moot now for 90% or more of the population and should be revisited. Year round school for everyone with longer breaks to provide actual breaks and if colleges have the same schedule there will be camps etc for those that need the childcare during breaks.

If you think Harvest is in the summer, you have never farmed have you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the same work. There's overlap, but it isn't equivalent.

Do you think it's disrespectful for a woman doctor to correct someone who refers to her as a nurse? (Or vice versa?) Or are we all required to call everything the same?

Actually yes, in many cases I do. And I live that myself. I am in a male-dominated profession that requires advanced degrees. During the course of my career, I have been mistaken for an assistant, a secretary, a SAHM, and more multiple times. When that happens, I almost never correct people. I will only correct people if it would be deceptive not to.correct them. But otherwise, yes, I do think it's disrespectful. I reject the concept that it degrades me to have people think I am an admin or a secretary or a SAHM or whatever. I respect everyone who fills those roles. I would not correct someone who thought that I was a childcare worker. I think highly of childcare workers, and it's no insult to be confused with one. I will never promote myself by being disrespectful of the career of someone else. If I need to do that, I've done something wrong.

So when I hear teachers and unions talk disparagingly about how school isn't childcare, what I hear is disappointing disparagement and disrespect towards childcare workers. It has a classist and racist edge to it that makes me very uncomfortable.

I don't know about your job, but you don't take medical advice from a nurse to be of a different level than medical advice about diagnosis and treatment from a licensed physician?

You don't see why identifying yourself correctly is or isn't important to a patient? Not just a matter of ego or hierarchy?

Wow. I'll leave it at that.

This is more like saying "patient CARE? I went to med school and residency to practice medicine, not care for patients. That's what a nurse does." We know doctors don't change bedpans but trying to totally separate the care part from the knowledge part sounds a bit unkind toward both patients and nurses.

These arguments only work if we were asking Teachers to babysit our kids and not teach them right now.
We are asking them to TEACH them, they are TEACHERS. It is not crazy for parents to be asking them to do their actual jobs.
I am not asking the school to hold my kid for 6 hours while i work. I am asking the school to educate them.
This is not asking for childcare, it is asking for an essential service that our tax dollars pay for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the same work. There's overlap, but it isn't equivalent.

Do you think it's disrespectful for a woman doctor to correct someone who refers to her as a nurse? (Or vice versa?) Or are we all required to call everything the same?

Actually yes, in many cases I do. And I live that myself. I am in a male-dominated profession that requires advanced degrees. During the course of my career, I have been mistaken for an assistant, a secretary, a SAHM, and more multiple times. When that happens, I almost never correct people. I will only correct people if it would be deceptive not to.correct them. But otherwise, yes, I do think it's disrespectful. I reject the concept that it degrades me to have people think I am an admin or a secretary or a SAHM or whatever. I respect everyone who fills those roles. I would not correct someone who thought that I was a childcare worker. I think highly of childcare workers, and it's no insult to be confused with one. I will never promote myself by being disrespectful of the career of someone else. If I need to do that, I've done something wrong.

So when I hear teachers and unions talk disparagingly about how school isn't childcare, what I hear is disappointing disparagement and disrespect towards childcare workers. It has a classist and racist edge to it that makes me very uncomfortable.

I don't know about your job, but you don't take medical advice from a nurse to be of a different level than medical advice about diagnosis and treatment from a licensed physician?

You don't see why identifying yourself correctly is or isn't important to a patient? Not just a matter of ego or hierarchy?

Wow. I'll leave it at that.

This is more like saying "patient CARE? I went to med school and residency to practice medicine, not care for patients. That's what a nurse does." We know doctors don't change bedpans but trying to totally separate the care part from the knowledge part sounds a bit unkind toward both patients and nurses.

Show me the post where someone actually said the equivalent for teachers and childcare workers. I'll wait.

Cite it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So much of this argument is based on the fact of mandatory attendance.....if it was optional and parents could make other arrangements then sure. Having children attend a program 6 hours a day every day precludes arrangement that Would work best for parents, and make school child care

Times change. Life changes.

Kids used to get switched on the hands for not knowing their lessons. They don't anymore. Education changes, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really hate how the phrase degrades the valuable work of childcare providers, who are nearly all women.

When teachers union leaders say this, it comes across as incredibly out of touch and degrading. I don't understand why they do not see how awful they sound when they talk like this.

Agree. That’s another reason it’s cringey

Except teachers themselves are predominantly women and childcare providers are not expected to write legal documents, take data, conduct assessments, prepare children for state tests, etc.
If childcare providers want to become teachers, they are certainly free to work through school to make that happen. I was a nanny and I got my transitional license, went to school at night, and worked my way through my certification. The two jobs are not the same, and one of them requires a master's degree, while the other does not require any educational qualifications. That's reality.

Just stop.

I know. Lol. The 2nd to last sentence tipped it over the edge...

Why, because you think it's unkind to point out that some jobs require qualifications and degrees while others do not? Because it's true, and it isn't an opinion. Just like you can become a restaurant worker, a factory worker, or a bus driver without a diploma but you can't become a doctor, a nurse, a lawyer, an accountant, or many many other professions. If daycare providers decide they want the high salaries and prestige of teachers (sarcasm) then they should become teachers. The primary function of daycare is childcare, the primary function of school is education. That is the difference. It's not like daycare workers are primarily women and teachers are primarily men.
Lots of people who want to cry that school closures are a feminist crisis while conveniently ignoring the people who actually run our schools.

It's not true. let's start with one lie.. being a teacher does not require a master's degree.

Please don't tell me what's preferred or competitive. You can also get a degree in knitting and become a teacher through teach for America- placed in a school.

People come on this board and just say whatever.

Teachers ARE required to hold a master's degree or be working toward one (a transitional license expires after three years) in many states, including mine. Not sure where you get your information. A bachelor's degree is not sufficient. Teach for America places people in high need areas WHILE they receive a master's degree in education. You seem to think that just anyone can teach, and you are wrong. There are a ton of licensing requirements, from subject area tests to the edTPA or Praxis (depending on your state). You need supervisory hours under a mentor. You are observed and rated throughout the year on 22 components (you can google the Danielson rubric if you want to) and your student's test scores are factored into your year long rating.
You clearly have no idea.