Jk Rowling/Transphobia

[Anonymous]

But there are non-reproductive implications beyond discussing the topic at hand ("I forgot to take birth control today"). Career, recreation, many things are impacted by your reproductive life. Even choosing not to have children (temporarily or ever) is a burden on women--they have to remember to take pills, stick foreign objects into their bodies. Going through miscarriages while devastating on your husband/wife/partner, is something only your body goes through and has to heal from.

In the discussion of understanding the humanity vs. biological reality, I think because men and women are still unequal in the real world, women do not have their humanity recognized to varying degrees. I will say I am still learning more about trans gender issues as it intersects with women's issues. I see that trans gender women are vulnerable to a very specific type of violence and should be protected from that and, obviously, they should have rights as any other human.

When we are talking about issues where societies are making corrections for women being unequal (special career programs for women, sports, women only spaces, etc.), I think we get into some debatable issues around the participation of trans women. We should be able to have this discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But there are non-reproductive implications beyond discussing the topic at hand ("I forgot to take birth control today". Career, recreation, many things are impacted by your reproductive life. Even choosing not to have children (temporarily or ever) is a burden on women--they have to remember to take pills, stick foreign objects into their bodies. Going through miscarriages while devastating on your husband/wife/partner, is something only your body goes through and has to heal from.

In the discussion of understanding the humanity vs. biological reality, I think because men and women are still unequal in the real world, women do not have their humanity recognized to varying degrees. I will say I am still learning more about trans gender issues as it intersects with women's issues. I see that trans gender women are vulnerable to a very specific type of violence and should be protected from that and, obviously, they should have rights as any other human.

When we are talking about issues where societies are making corrections for women being unequal (special career programs for women, sports, women only spaces, etc.), I think we get into some debatable issues around the participation of trans women. We should be able to have this discussion.

Of course. Many complicated issues.

I have been sharing my thoughts based on the earlier comment that maybe got lost along the way:
>My experience as a cis woman is completely different than that of a trans woman. I would not pretend to understand their experience on any level.


I disagree that cis women and transgender women are so different that there isn’t a great deal of understanding or shared experiences. Not menstruation/reproduction, but obviously human issues (jerk at work, etc) and even harassment and trauma, which some will dispute, but I don’t believe those are exclusive to women.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that everything is a human experience is ridiculous. The poster who keep insisting that periods are the main "womanly" topic is thinking in terms of an ideal society where men and women are equal. We know that is not true in various realms as pointed out by another poster. This is even worse in other countries and societies where women as a group suffer more than men. The combination of biology and society have real world implications for women.

Take the issue of giving birth. Women are not equal in this regard. They generally have a time frame of 2 decades when they can give birth if they choose to. In that same time frame, they are likely in the most critical time of building their careers. A man can set up his career and then get married and have children. In addition, men may have children earlier, but generally don't take on the brunt of childcare duties (yes, we know they should, but it is not true for many couples from varying backgrounds).
More importantly, men can have children even into their 60's. Do men worry about this deadline that women face? This is just one example of a womanly topic that is forefront on many women's minds who may or may not have given birth. It is a topic that is not simply about exchanging breastfeeding tips and has many deeper implications on long-term career choices, time and money spent on IVF, marriage, etc. Period poster seems to think issues specific to women have finite time frames of relevance. On the other side, who bears the most burden of contraception--whether it is taking a pill, or inserting an IUD? We can go on and on.

But, see, the "we are all human" poster doesn't have kids. So this topic is boring to her. Therefore it is boring and of little consequence to anyone else and should never be discussed amongst other women. Can't we just talk about books and movies instead?

I do have kids, but I haven't given birth. I was pregnant several times though.

Cool, but do you respect that others maybe want to talk about it more often and in greater detail than you do with others who have undergone the same experiences? My neighbors, friends, and colleagues who are male can't relate to my fertility treatments and sometimes those conversations aren't appropriate at work or when we're both grabbing our mail.

Sure. But your connection to women (and other humans) wasn't limited to the fertility treatments. And you probably didn't talk to all women about them - probably just other women who've also gone through them. Also not a universal experience.

You're right, its not universal. So I seek out women with the same experience. Not all women. No men. And not transwomen. That's the point. You struggled to think of anything beyond periods we could discuss. Is your mind blown yet?

I never attempted to list out all possible topics that women may discuss exclusively with other women. I was describing the “female” topics that **I** have discussed with others. It wasn’t meant to be a definitive list. ??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that everything is a human experience is ridiculous. The poster who keep insisting that periods are the main "womanly" topic is thinking in terms of an ideal society where men and women are equal. We know that is not true in various realms as pointed out by another poster. This is even worse in other countries and societies where women as a group suffer more than men. The combination of biology and society have real world implications for women.

Take the issue of giving birth. Women are not equal in this regard. They generally have a time frame of 2 decades when they can give birth if they choose to. In that same time frame, they are likely in the most critical time of building their careers. A man can set up his career and then get married and have children. In addition, men may have children earlier, but generally don't take on the brunt of childcare duties (yes, we know they should, but it is not true for many couples from varying backgrounds).
More importantly, men can have children even into their 60's. Do men worry about this deadline that women face? This is just one example of a womanly topic that is forefront on many women's minds who may or may not have given birth. It is a topic that is not simply about exchanging breastfeeding tips and has many deeper implications on long-term career choices, time and money spent on IVF, marriage, etc. Period poster seems to think issues specific to women have finite time frames of relevance. On the other side, who bears the most burden of contraception--whether it is taking a pill, or inserting an IUD? We can go on and on.

But, see, the "we are all human" poster doesn't have kids. So this topic is boring to her. Therefore it is boring and of little consequence to anyone else and should never be discussed amongst other women. Can't we just talk about books and movies instead?

I do have kids, but I haven't given birth. I was pregnant several times though.

Cool, but do you respect that others maybe want to talk about it more often and in greater detail than you do with others who have undergone the same experiences? My neighbors, friends, and colleagues who are male can't relate to my fertility treatments and sometimes those conversations aren't appropriate at work or when we're both grabbing our mail.

Sure. But your connection to women (and other humans) wasn't limited to the fertility treatments. And you probably didn't talk to all women about them - probably just other women who've also gone through them. Also not a universal experience.

You're right, its not universal. So I seek out women with the same experience. Not all women. No men. And not transwomen. That's the point. You struggled to think of anything beyond periods we could discuss. Is your mind blown yet?

I never attempted to list out all possible topics that women may discuss exclusively with other women. I was describing the “female” topics that **I** have discussed with others. It wasn’t meant to be a definitive list. ??

You said "What % of your experiences are "woman" though? I can think of very few and certainly none that provide significant or sustained connection to others.

menstruation
cramps
perimenopause

I mean, you can only talk about getting your period so many times with your friends..."

I think you had a failure of imagination. Multiple people have provided input as to what else there is to discuss. But you've dug in your heels and are twisting yourself in knots to insist that very few things, and if there are a few things they are not very important, and not worthy of much conversation, and instead the vast majority of topics are human and universal. Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree at this point.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This is an old thread and interesting to come back to now.

Today I was thinking about what is seemingly happening in academia: many are repeating the “trans women are completely indistinguishable from cis women” line. Which is completely unscientific and incorrect. And much of the media goes right along with it.

I would not be surprised to find that academics and media pushing this groupthink are responsible for the increased distrust of media and academia by certain sectors of our society, to grave effect.

It's not just unscientifically incorrect, it's illogical and absurd. If trans women are just like cis women, then the reverse would be true. I was never born with a penis, never had to have any part of me altered to fit what I felt like on the inside. My experience as a cis woman is completely different than that of a trans woman. I would not pretend to understand their experience on any level. It must be incredibly difficult. I've had difficulties from being a woman, but I can't think of one true overlap with a trans woman. I've never had to struggle to get anyone else to accept me as being a woman.

We have all been told that using common sense is unacceptable. And so here we are.

And my experience as a cis woman is completely different than your experience as a cis woman. I would never to pretend to understand your experience either. And you don't understand mine either.

This is why the "indistinguishable" term is so absurd . Because of experiences, which have some overlap almost no matter who we are talking about.
My point was specifically within the "woman" experience. Within that woman experience, I submit I will share significant overlap with another cis gendered woman, but also a lot of individual experiences that don't overlap. With a trans woman, I doubt I would have a lot of "woman" experience overlap, but quite a bit of human experience overlap, but a total absence of the trans experience. Not a lot of overlap there.

What % of your experiences are "woman" though? I can think of very few and certainly none that provide significant or sustained connection to others.

menstruation
cramps
perimenopause

I mean, you can only talk about getting your period so many times with your friends...

NP. What sex were you at birth?

Female

I'm the cis woman from above with different experiences than the other cis woman.

And you believe your only shared experience with other women is “periods”? That’s incredible to me. Literally…not credible.

well perimenopause is an experience now too...but I've only discussed with friends maybe 5-6 times over the last year. we usually talk about other non-female things.

the vast majority of my connections with others aren't based on "female" things.

what are these uniquely "female" connections?

Living in the world as a woman is a “female” thing. Existing from birth to grave as a woman is a “female” thing. It’s so bizarre to me that someone old enough to be in perimenopause thinks that conversations between women must be about periods or some shit…wtf.

we **don't** talk a lot about periods. we talk about non-female things....really I'd just call them "human" things.

what are these "female" topics we should be discussing?

Oh, totally. I got cornered in a bar because I’m a human! The contractor asked to close the deal with my husband because I’m a human. I get paid less for the same job because I’m a human. My doctor discounts my symptoms because I’m a human.

I’m having a hard time believing that you could have lived your entire life as a woman and be so obtuse.

I guess we just have had different experiences. I work in a male-dominated field and usually handle the contractors. 🤷‍♀️

so what % of your time do you spend talking to women about these topics?

Yes, I guess we have had different experiences. I’m really happy for you that you have, somehow, reached middle age without ever having been treated poorly because you were a woman. You are truly a unicorn. By all means, continue to shout down those of us who have been treated differently. You are so brave.

Seems like you could have a meaningful connection with transwomen on topics about being treated poorly...

Perhaps. I’d enjoy a conversation with a transwoman about the differences between being treated like crap from birth vs. being treated like crap after they transitioned as an adult.

I'm guessing you'd have more in common than you think.

Transgender people experience a lot of trauma and deal with a lot of crap.

Yeah..no shit. But I’m not going to be transplained to about what it means to live your entire life as a female.

You aren't interested in making connections with other human beings who've had similar experiences to you?

I have never been harassed or traumatized for being a trans woman. But I bet other transwomen would be great for support with those experiences. This is why specific support groups exist, they don't lump everyone together.

Certainly you make connections and support other people who aren't women, right?

I'm sure you have some guy friends with similar interests, career goals, music tastes, etc. Right?

Sure but they would be "human" topics. I wouldn't talk to a transwoman about typical female topics that she wouldn't relate to. So there wouldn't be a deeper more meaningful connection than with anyone else. Most people compartmentalize their relationships and talk to certain people about some topics but not others.

Do you only have deep relationships with women?

Np but I’d say that’s quite common. Besides my husband all my close relationships are with women.

Generally my husband doesn't approve of my fun weekend trips away with my best guy friend. So, no, I don't have a lot of close male friends I connect with on a deep level. Some would call that an emotion affair.

I've had (and have) some "deep" relationships with men, but none were an emotional affair. Neighbors, colleagues, college friends. We talk about parenting, life, work, etc. Very platonic.

Then we have a different definition of deep.

Deep doesn’t mean sexual. ??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But there are non-reproductive implications beyond discussing the topic at hand ("I forgot to take birth control today". Career, recreation, many things are impacted by your reproductive life. Even choosing not to have children (temporarily or ever) is a burden on women--they have to remember to take pills, stick foreign objects into their bodies. Going through miscarriages while devastating on your husband/wife/partner, is something only your body goes through and has to heal from.

In the discussion of understanding the humanity vs. biological reality, I think because men and women are still unequal in the real world, women do not have their humanity recognized to varying degrees. I will say I am still learning more about trans gender issues as it intersects with women's issues. I see that trans gender women are vulnerable to a very specific type of violence and should be protected from that and, obviously, they should have rights as any other human.

When we are talking about issues where societies are making corrections for women being unequal (special career programs for women, sports, women only spaces, etc.), I think we get into some debatable issues around the participation of trans women. We should be able to have this discussion.

Of course. Many complicated issues.

I have been sharing my thoughts based on the earlier comment that maybe got lost along the way:
>My experience as a cis woman is completely different than that of a trans woman. I would not pretend to understand their experience on any level.


I disagree that cis women and transgender women are so different that there isn’t a great deal of understanding or shared experiences. Not menstruation/reproduction, but obviously human issues (jerk at work, etc) and even harassment and trauma, which some will dispute, but I don’t believe those are exclusive to women.

NP. I agree with you here when you clearly differentiate between women and transwomen and acknowledge obvious biological differences. Yes of course we're all human and we can talk about the weather, etc. but that's not a compelling reason to dismantle women's spaces.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This is an old thread and interesting to come back to now.

Today I was thinking about what is seemingly happening in academia: many are repeating the “trans women are completely indistinguishable from cis women” line. Which is completely unscientific and incorrect. And much of the media goes right along with it.

I would not be surprised to find that academics and media pushing this groupthink are responsible for the increased distrust of media and academia by certain sectors of our society, to grave effect.

It's not just unscientifically incorrect, it's illogical and absurd. If trans women are just like cis women, then the reverse would be true. I was never born with a penis, never had to have any part of me altered to fit what I felt like on the inside. My experience as a cis woman is completely different than that of a trans woman. I would not pretend to understand their experience on any level. It must be incredibly difficult. I've had difficulties from being a woman, but I can't think of one true overlap with a trans woman. I've never had to struggle to get anyone else to accept me as being a woman.

We have all been told that using common sense is unacceptable. And so here we are.

And my experience as a cis woman is completely different than your experience as a cis woman. I would never to pretend to understand your experience either. And you don't understand mine either.

This is why the "indistinguishable" term is so absurd . Because of experiences, which have some overlap almost no matter who we are talking about.
My point was specifically within the "woman" experience. Within that woman experience, I submit I will share significant overlap with another cis gendered woman, but also a lot of individual experiences that don't overlap. With a trans woman, I doubt I would have a lot of "woman" experience overlap, but quite a bit of human experience overlap, but a total absence of the trans experience. Not a lot of overlap there.

What % of your experiences are "woman" though? I can think of very few and certainly none that provide significant or sustained connection to others.

menstruation
cramps
perimenopause

I mean, you can only talk about getting your period so many times with your friends...

NP. What sex were you at birth?

Female

I'm the cis woman from above with different experiences than the other cis woman.

And you believe your only shared experience with other women is “periods”? That’s incredible to me. Literally…not credible.

well perimenopause is an experience now too...but I've only discussed with friends maybe 5-6 times over the last year. we usually talk about other non-female things.

the vast majority of my connections with others aren't based on "female" things.

what are these uniquely "female" connections?

Living in the world as a woman is a “female” thing. Existing from birth to grave as a woman is a “female” thing. It’s so bizarre to me that someone old enough to be in perimenopause thinks that conversations between women must be about periods or some shit…wtf.

we **don't** talk a lot about periods. we talk about non-female things....really I'd just call them "human" things.

what are these "female" topics we should be discussing?

Oh, totally. I got cornered in a bar because I’m a human! The contractor asked to close the deal with my husband because I’m a human. I get paid less for the same job because I’m a human. My doctor discounts my symptoms because I’m a human.

I’m having a hard time believing that you could have lived your entire life as a woman and be so obtuse.

I guess we just have had different experiences. I work in a male-dominated field and usually handle the contractors. 🤷‍♀️

so what % of your time do you spend talking to women about these topics?

Yes, I guess we have had different experiences. I’m really happy for you that you have, somehow, reached middle age without ever having been treated poorly because you were a woman. You are truly a unicorn. By all means, continue to shout down those of us who have been treated differently. You are so brave.

Seems like you could have a meaningful connection with transwomen on topics about being treated poorly...

Perhaps. I’d enjoy a conversation with a transwoman about the differences between being treated like crap from birth vs. being treated like crap after they transitioned as an adult.

I'm guessing you'd have more in common than you think.

Transgender people experience a lot of trauma and deal with a lot of crap.

Yeah..no shit. But I’m not going to be transplained to about what it means to live your entire life as a female.

You aren't interested in making connections with other human beings who've had similar experiences to you?

I have never been harassed or traumatized for being a trans woman. But I bet other transwomen would be great for support with those experiences. This is why specific support groups exist, they don't lump everyone together.

Certainly you make connections and support other people who aren't women, right?

I'm sure you have some guy friends with similar interests, career goals, music tastes, etc. Right?

Sure but they would be "human" topics. I wouldn't talk to a transwoman about typical female topics that she wouldn't relate to. So there wouldn't be a deeper more meaningful connection than with anyone else. Most people compartmentalize their relationships and talk to certain people about some topics but not others.

Do you only have deep relationships with women?

Np but I’d say that’s quite common. Besides my husband all my close relationships are with women.

Generally my husband doesn't approve of my fun weekend trips away with my best guy friend. So, no, I don't have a lot of close male friends I connect with on a deep level. Some would call that an emotion affair.

I've had (and have) some "deep" relationships with men, but none were an emotional affair. Neighbors, colleagues, college friends. We talk about parenting, life, work, etc. Very platonic.

Then we have a different definition of deep.

Deep doesn’t mean sexual. ??

An emotional affair isn't sexual either, but it can be a problem in many relationships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea that everything is a human experience is ridiculous. The poster who keep insisting that periods are the main "womanly" topic is thinking in terms of an ideal society where men and women are equal. We know that is not true in various realms as pointed out by another poster. This is even worse in other countries and societies where women as a group suffer more than men. The combination of biology and society have real world implications for women.

Take the issue of giving birth. Women are not equal in this regard. They generally have a time frame of 2 decades when they can give birth if they choose to. In that same time frame, they are likely in the most critical time of building their careers. A man can set up his career and then get married and have children. In addition, men may have children earlier, but generally don't take on the brunt of childcare duties (yes, we know they should, but it is not true for many couples from varying backgrounds).
More importantly, men can have children even into their 60's. Do men worry about this deadline that women face? This is just one example of a womanly topic that is forefront on many women's minds who may or may not have given birth. It is a topic that is not simply about exchanging breastfeeding tips and has many deeper implications on long-term career choices, time and money spent on IVF, marriage, etc. Period poster seems to think issues specific to women have finite time frames of relevance. On the other side, who bears the most burden of contraception--whether it is taking a pill, or inserting an IUD? We can go on and on.

But, see, the "we are all human" poster doesn't have kids. So this topic is boring to her. Therefore it is boring and of little consequence to anyone else and should never be discussed amongst other women. Can't we just talk about books and movies instead?

I do have kids, but I haven't given birth. I was pregnant several times though.

Cool, but do you respect that others maybe want to talk about it more often and in greater detail than you do with others who have undergone the same experiences? My neighbors, friends, and colleagues who are male can't relate to my fertility treatments and sometimes those conversations aren't appropriate at work or when we're both grabbing our mail.

Sure. But your connection to women (and other humans) wasn't limited to the fertility treatments. And you probably didn't talk to all women about them - probably just other women who've also gone through them. Also not a universal experience.

You're right, its not universal. So I seek out women with the same experience. Not all women. No men. And not transwomen. That's the point. You struggled to think of anything beyond periods we could discuss. Is your mind blown yet?

I never attempted to list out all possible topics that women may discuss exclusively with other women. I was describing the “female” topics that **I** have discussed with others. It wasn’t meant to be a definitive list. ??

You said "What % of your experiences are "woman" though? I can think of very few and certainly none that provide significant or sustained connection to others.

menstruation
cramps
perimenopause

I mean, you can only talk about getting your period so many times with your friends..."

I think you had a failure of imagination. Multiple people have provided input as to what else there is to discuss. But you've dug in your heels and are twisting yourself in knots to insist that very few things, and if there are a few things they are not very important, and not worthy of much conversation, and instead the vast majority of topics are human and universal. Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree at this point.

Sorry, I may not have worded it well but I have always been referring to *my* experiences. That was my point with my original comment:

“ And my experience as a cis woman is completely different than your experience as a cis woman. I would never to pretend to understand your experience either. And you don't understand mine either. ”

Yes, agree to disagree.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an old thread and interesting to come back to now.

Today I was thinking about what is seemingly happening in academia: many are repeating the “trans women are completely indistinguishable from cis women” line. Which is completely unscientific and incorrect. And much of the media goes right along with it.

I would not be surprised to find that academics and media pushing this groupthink are responsible for the increased distrust of media and academia by certain sectors of our society, to grave effect.

It's not just unscientifically incorrect, it's illogical and absurd. If trans women are just like cis women, then the reverse would be true. I was never born with a penis, never had to have any part of me altered to fit what I felt like on the inside. My experience as a cis woman is completely different than that of a trans woman. I would not pretend to understand their experience on any level. It must be incredibly difficult. I've had difficulties from being a woman, but I can't think of one true overlap with a trans woman. I've never had to struggle to get anyone else to accept me as being a woman.

We have all been told that using common sense is unacceptable. And so here we are.

And my experience as a cis woman is completely different than your experience as a cis woman. I would never to pretend to understand your experience either. And you don't understand mine either.

This is why the "indistinguishable" term is so absurd . Because of experiences, which have some overlap almost no matter who we are talking about.
My point was specifically within the "woman" experience. Within that woman experience, I submit I will share significant overlap with another cis gendered woman, but also a lot of individual experiences that don't overlap. With a trans woman, I doubt I would have a lot of "woman" experience overlap, but quite a bit of human experience overlap, but a total absence of the trans experience. Not a lot of overlap there.

What % of your experiences are "woman" though? I can think of very few and certainly none that provide significant or sustained connection to others.

menstruation
cramps
perimenopause

I mean, you can only talk about getting your period so many times with your friends...

NP. What sex were you at birth?

Female

I'm the cis woman from above with different experiences than the other cis woman.

And you believe your only shared experience with other women is “periods”? That’s incredible to me. Literally…not credible.

well perimenopause is an experience now too...but I've only discussed with friends maybe 5-6 times over the last year. we usually talk about other non-female things.

the vast majority of my connections with others aren't based on "female" things.

what are these uniquely "female" connections?

Living in the world as a woman is a “female” thing. Existing from birth to grave as a woman is a “female” thing. It’s so bizarre to me that someone old enough to be in perimenopause thinks that conversations between women must be about periods or some shit…wtf.

we **don't** talk a lot about periods. we talk about non-female things....really I'd just call them "human" things.

what are these "female" topics we should be discussing?

Oh, totally. I got cornered in a bar because I’m a human! The contractor asked to close the deal with my husband because I’m a human. I get paid less for the same job because I’m a human. My doctor discounts my symptoms because I’m a human.

I’m having a hard time believing that you could have lived your entire life as a woman and be so obtuse.

I guess we just have had different experiences. I work in a male-dominated field and usually handle the contractors. 🤷‍♀️

so what % of your time do you spend talking to women about these topics?

Yes, I guess we have had different experiences. I’m really happy for you that you have, somehow, reached middle age without ever having been treated poorly because you were a woman. You are truly a unicorn. By all means, continue to shout down those of us who have been treated differently. You are so brave.

Seems like you could have a meaningful connection with transwomen on topics about being treated poorly...

Perhaps. I’d enjoy a conversation with a transwoman about the differences between being treated like crap from birth vs. being treated like crap after they transitioned as an adult.

I'm guessing you'd have more in common than you think.

Transgender people experience a lot of trauma and deal with a lot of crap.

Yeah..no shit. But I’m not going to be transplained to about what it means to live your entire life as a female.

You aren't interested in making connections with other human beings who've had similar experiences to you?

I have never been harassed or traumatized for being a trans woman. But I bet other transwomen would be great for support with those experiences. This is why specific support groups exist, they don't lump everyone together.

Certainly you make connections and support other people who aren't women, right?

I'm sure you have some guy friends with similar interests, career goals, music tastes, etc. Right?

Sure but they would be "human" topics. I wouldn't talk to a transwoman about typical female topics that she wouldn't relate to. So there wouldn't be a deeper more meaningful connection than with anyone else. Most people compartmentalize their relationships and talk to certain people about some topics but not others.

Do you only have deep relationships with women?

Np but I’d say that’s quite common. Besides my husband all my close relationships are with women.

Generally my husband doesn't approve of my fun weekend trips away with my best guy friend. So, no, I don't have a lot of close male friends I connect with on a deep level. Some would call that an emotion affair.

I've had (and have) some "deep" relationships with men, but none were an emotional affair. Neighbors, colleagues, college friends. We talk about parenting, life, work, etc. Very platonic.

Then we have a different definition of deep.

Deep doesn’t mean sexual. ??

An emotional affair isn't sexual either, but it can be a problem in many relationships.

My definition of emotional affair is that there are sexual undertones (or even more overt), but no physical sex.

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Anonymous wrote:This is an old thread and interesting to come back to now.

Today I was thinking about what is seemingly happening in academia: many are repeating the “trans women are completely indistinguishable from cis women” line. Which is completely unscientific and incorrect. And much of the media goes right along with it.

I would not be surprised to find that academics and media pushing this groupthink are responsible for the increased distrust of media and academia by certain sectors of our society, to grave effect.

It's not just unscientifically incorrect, it's illogical and absurd. If trans women are just like cis women, then the reverse would be true. I was never born with a penis, never had to have any part of me altered to fit what I felt like on the inside. My experience as a cis woman is completely different than that of a trans woman. I would not pretend to understand their experience on any level. It must be incredibly difficult. I've had difficulties from being a woman, but I can't think of one true overlap with a trans woman. I've never had to struggle to get anyone else to accept me as being a woman.

We have all been told that using common sense is unacceptable. And so here we are.

And my experience as a cis woman is completely different than your experience as a cis woman. I would never to pretend to understand your experience either. And you don't understand mine either.

This is why the "indistinguishable" term is so absurd . Because of experiences, which have some overlap almost no matter who we are talking about.
My point was specifically within the "woman" experience. Within that woman experience, I submit I will share significant overlap with another cis gendered woman, but also a lot of individual experiences that don't overlap. With a trans woman, I doubt I would have a lot of "woman" experience overlap, but quite a bit of human experience overlap, but a total absence of the trans experience. Not a lot of overlap there.

What % of your experiences are "woman" though? I can think of very few and certainly none that provide significant or sustained connection to others.

menstruation
cramps
perimenopause

I mean, you can only talk about getting your period so many times with your friends...

NP. What sex were you at birth?

Female

I'm the cis woman from above with different experiences than the other cis woman.

And you believe your only shared experience with other women is “periods”? That’s incredible to me. Literally…not credible.

well perimenopause is an experience now too...but I've only discussed with friends maybe 5-6 times over the last year. we usually talk about other non-female things.

the vast majority of my connections with others aren't based on "female" things.

what are these uniquely "female" connections?

Living in the world as a woman is a “female” thing. Existing from birth to grave as a woman is a “female” thing. It’s so bizarre to me that someone old enough to be in perimenopause thinks that conversations between women must be about periods or some shit…wtf.

we **don't** talk a lot about periods. we talk about non-female things....really I'd just call them "human" things.

what are these "female" topics we should be discussing?

Oh, totally. I got cornered in a bar because I’m a human! The contractor asked to close the deal with my husband because I’m a human. I get paid less for the same job because I’m a human. My doctor discounts my symptoms because I’m a human.

I’m having a hard time believing that you could have lived your entire life as a woman and be so obtuse.

I guess we just have had different experiences. I work in a male-dominated field and usually handle the contractors. 🤷‍♀️

so what % of your time do you spend talking to women about these topics?

Yes, I guess we have had different experiences. I’m really happy for you that you have, somehow, reached middle age without ever having been treated poorly because you were a woman. You are truly a unicorn. By all means, continue to shout down those of us who have been treated differently. You are so brave.

Seems like you could have a meaningful connection with transwomen on topics about being treated poorly...

Perhaps. I’d enjoy a conversation with a transwoman about the differences between being treated like crap from birth vs. being treated like crap after they transitioned as an adult.

I'm guessing you'd have more in common than you think.

Transgender people experience a lot of trauma and deal with a lot of crap.

Yeah..no shit. But I’m not going to be transplained to about what it means to live your entire life as a female.

You aren't interested in making connections with other human beings who've had similar experiences to you?

I have never been harassed or traumatized for being a trans woman. But I bet other transwomen would be great for support with those experiences. This is why specific support groups exist, they don't lump everyone together.

Certainly you make connections and support other people who aren't women, right?

I'm sure you have some guy friends with similar interests, career goals, music tastes, etc. Right?

Sure but they would be "human" topics. I wouldn't talk to a transwoman about typical female topics that she wouldn't relate to. So there wouldn't be a deeper more meaningful connection than with anyone else. Most people compartmentalize their relationships and talk to certain people about some topics but not others.

Do you only have deep relationships with women?

Np but I’d say that’s quite common. Besides my husband all my close relationships are with women.

Generally my husband doesn't approve of my fun weekend trips away with my best guy friend. So, no, I don't have a lot of close male friends I connect with on a deep level. Some would call that an emotion affair.

I've had (and have) some "deep" relationships with men, but none were an emotional affair. Neighbors, colleagues, college friends. We talk about parenting, life, work, etc. Very platonic.

Then we have a different definition of deep.

Deep doesn’t mean sexual. ??

An emotional affair isn't sexual either, but it can be a problem in many relationships.

My definition of emotional affair is that there are sexual undertones (or even more overt), but no physical sex.

And mine is a deep emotional connection where you talk about personal and private things with someone not your spouse. I don't have those types of relationships with men not my spouse.

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Anonymous wrote:But there are non-reproductive implications beyond discussing the topic at hand ("I forgot to take birth control today". Career, recreation, many things are impacted by your reproductive life. Even choosing not to have children (temporarily or ever) is a burden on women--they have to remember to take pills, stick foreign objects into their bodies. Going through miscarriages while devastating on your husband/wife/partner, is something only your body goes through and has to heal from.

In the discussion of understanding the humanity vs. biological reality, I think because men and women are still unequal in the real world, women do not have their humanity recognized to varying degrees. I will say I am still learning more about trans gender issues as it intersects with women's issues. I see that trans gender women are vulnerable to a very specific type of violence and should be protected from that and, obviously, they should have rights as any other human.

When we are talking about issues where societies are making corrections for women being unequal (special career programs for women, sports, women only spaces, etc.), I think we get into some debatable issues around the participation of trans women. We should be able to have this discussion.

Of course. Many complicated issues.

I have been sharing my thoughts based on the earlier comment that maybe got lost along the way:
>My experience as a cis woman is completely different than that of a trans woman. I would not pretend to understand their experience on any level.


I disagree that cis women and transgender women are so different that there isn’t a great deal of understanding or shared experiences. Not menstruation/reproduction, but obviously human issues (jerk at work, etc) and even harassment and trauma, which some will dispute, but I don’t believe those are exclusive to women.

NP. I agree with you here when you clearly differentiate between women and transwomen and acknowledge obvious biological differences. Yes of course we're all human and we can talk about the weather, etc. but that's not a compelling reason to dismantle women's spaces.

Sure, but I’m not talking about women’s spaces (??) just the connections we have with other people.

[Anonymous]

And mine is a deep emotional connection where you talk about personal and private things with someone not your spouse. I don't have those types of relationships with men not my spouse.

Have you ever had a close relationship with a guy who wasn’t your boyfriend/SO before you were married?

A few of my closest friends are guys (college BFF, current work BFF). Definitely platonic.

[Anonymous]

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And mine is a deep emotional connection where you talk about personal and private things with someone not your spouse. I don't have those types of relationships with men not my spouse.

Have you ever had a close relationship with a guy who wasn’t your boyfriend/SO before you were married?

A few of my closest friends are guys (college BFF, current work BFF). Definitely platonic.

I've had friendships with guys, sure, but the point is I wouldn't say they were especially deep or meaningful, which is the sticking point. They were simply platonic friendships usually of convenience. Work guy friend and I liked the same lunch spot and would grab lunch together. But when one of us changed departments or job, friendship ended, like many female friends of convenience. So, no, I don't have deep & meaningful guy friends still hanging around in my current life, if there were any. If PP had simply said platonic friend I would have agreed.

[Anonymous]

A comprehensive thread of the various issues people have with JKR’s comments.

[Anonymous]

Wrong link. Here was the start of the thread:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Carter_AndrewJ/status/1270787941275762689