S/O High SES students will perform well no matter their peer group

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I’ll do y’all one better. How about you show me a study that shows wealthy white kids are harmed by SES/racial diversity?

Here's something addressing why students at "high poverty" schools are a disadantage.


https://www.thecommonwealthinstitute.org/2017/10/26/unequal-opportunities-fewer-resources-worse-outcomes-for-students-in-schools-with-concentrated-poverty/

I don't know the specifics of the OP's situation, but if studies show that high poverty schools are disadvantageous, are there any studies that show that higher SES students do just as well in high poverty schools as low poverty schools?

If we weren’t grandfathered into Wilson and had only Roosevelt as our public option, we would ABSOLUTELY move from our EOTP neighborhood, possibly WOTP, probably to VA. I think you underestimate how much parents care about their children.


That’s high poverty. All studies show ideal is 30-50% low income. Sure, we don’t have enough to make all HS that level, but you start with breaking up Wilson and freeing sets for Coolidge and Roosevelt and then as people opt in, you can go east with Dunbar etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But if 600 kids from Wilson were re-zoned to Coolidge, for example, the "high performing" cohort would be large enough to support the advanced kids basically immediately. Re-zone Shepherd and Lafayette, boom, it's done. (Coolidge had 310 kids in 17-18).

And the first few years of kids who enroll would have a rougher around the edges experience, but they'd also benefit pretty substantially in college admissions because they would far outperform Coolidge's "historic" stats.

You assume parents with options would sheepishly comply. Incorrect - they would go private or move.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that it’s the high SES families that are expected to accept risk without any concessions or guarantees. If DCPS were to remove, say, Lafayette from Deal they better darn well guarantee in an EOTP school there will be tracking, zero tolerance for disruptive students and those with poor attendance, crack down on residency fraud, etc. But DCPS will never do that. So instead they try to sell some immeasurable benefit like our kids will be “able to work well diverse groups in the future.” That’s just not enough.

100% correct. And "your kid will be fine because they are high SES" is also missing the mark. "Fine" is not -- nor will it ever be -- enough for this cohort of WOTP families.

Great, then enjoy your over-crowded HS and MS and stfu.

So that's the answer: We won't help you because you want your kids to do too well. Gotcha.

You know, in many cities, they actually want their students to be high achieving?

Nope. It's that if you refuse a pro-social, community-minded solution to allocating scarce resources, then the system is not going to go out of its way to help you. You've made clear that you believe you are your own little special island in DCPS, so that's what you'll get.

It’s a bit rich that the families paying the most property taxes and contributing most to DCPS are supposed to STFU rather than expect a challenging education for high performing kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Notice how you describe the child as high performing and the school as low performing? Yeah, that's the crux of it.

The high performing kids will still be high performing at another school.

Not if the class is full of disruptive kids three grade levels behind who can’t be disciplined because racism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But if 600 kids from Wilson were re-zoned to Coolidge, for example, the "high performing" cohort would be large enough to support the advanced kids basically immediately. Re-zone Shepherd and Lafayette, boom, it's done. (Coolidge had 310 kids in 17-18).

And the first few years of kids who enroll would have a rougher around the edges experience, but they'd also benefit pretty substantially in college admissions because they would far outperform Coolidge's "historic" stats.

You assume parents with options would sheepishly comply. Incorrect - they would go private or move.

Yeah, according to MySchoolDC (https://www.myschooldc.org/schools/profile/27), 73% of Coolidge students got a 1 on English PARCC and 44% on got a 1 in math. I'm willing to do some stuff for equity, but sending my kid to a school with those numbers is absolutely not on that list. Every parent I know well is in the same boat -- they would all move, go private or homeschool. If 600 Wilson students were zoned to Coolidge more than 400 would withdraw from DCPS.

It's weird to me that anybody seriously suggests this kind of solution. It's a little bit like Elizabeth Warren suggesting a 3% annual tax on the total wealth of billionaires. Billionaires would literally hire a trillion dollars worth of lobbying talent in order to defeat that idea. What makes anyone think anything like that would ever actually happen in the real world?

Or are we just amusing ourselves talking about a fantasy world unconnected to real life? If that's the game we're playing, then my proposal is that we use magic to make Wilson bigger on the inside than on the outside, like the tents in Harry Potter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that it’s the high SES families that are expected to accept risk without any concessions or guarantees. If DCPS were to remove, say, Lafayette from Deal they better darn well guarantee in an EOTP school there will be tracking, zero tolerance for disruptive students and those with poor attendance, crack down on residency fraud, etc. But DCPS will never do that. So instead they try to sell some immeasurable benefit like our kids will be “able to work well diverse groups in the future.” That’s just not enough.

100% correct. And "your kid will be fine because they are high SES" is also missing the mark. "Fine" is not -- nor will it ever be -- enough for this cohort of WOTP families.

Great, then enjoy your over-crowded HS and MS and stfu.

So that's the answer: We won't help you because you want your kids to do too well. Gotcha.

You know, in many cities, they actually want their students to be high achieving?

Nope. It's that if you refuse a pro-social, community-minded solution to allocating scarce resources, then the system is not going to go out of its way to help you. You've made clear that you believe you are your own little special island in DCPS, so that's what you'll get.

It’s a bit rich that the families paying the most property taxes and contributing most to DCPS are supposed to STFU rather than expect a challenging education for high performing kids.

No you're a bit rich.

And who says we're here for you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But if 600 kids from Wilson were re-zoned to Coolidge, for example, the "high performing" cohort would be large enough to support the advanced kids basically immediately. Re-zone Shepherd and Lafayette, boom, it's done. (Coolidge had 310 kids in 17-18).

And the first few years of kids who enroll would have a rougher around the edges experience, but they'd also benefit pretty substantially in college admissions because they would far outperform Coolidge's "historic" stats.

You assume parents with options would sheepishly comply. Incorrect - they would go private or move.

Yeah, according to MySchoolDC (https://www.myschooldc.org/schools/profile/27), 73% of Coolidge students got a 1 on English PARCC and 44% on got a 1 in math. I'm willing to do some stuff for equity, but sending my kid to a school with those numbers is absolutely not on that list. Every parent I know well is in the same boat -- they would all move, go private or homeschool. If 600 Wilson students were zoned to Coolidge more than 400 would withdraw from DCPS.

It's weird to me that anybody seriously suggests this kind of solution. It's a little bit like Elizabeth Warren suggesting a 3% annual tax on the total wealth of billionaires. Billionaires would literally hire a trillion dollars worth of lobbying talent in order to defeat that idea. What makes anyone think anything like that would ever actually happen in the real world?

Or are we just amusing ourselves talking about a fantasy world unconnected to real life? If that's the game we're playing, then my proposal is that we use magic to make Wilson bigger on the inside than on the outside, like the tents in Harry Potter.

Nah, billionaires are a bit more civic-minded than that. And it wouldn't hurt them or their children. If part of Warren's plan involved sending the children of billionaires to low-rated schools, then they might all pack up and move Europe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am confused about what exactly OP defines as her goals for her child. A particular SAT scores? A $500K per year income? Admission to a particular college or university , or one that has a particular rank?

OP here. I asked a question about evidence for a statement that is commonly thrown around, that when children are high SES they will thrive at any school because of their demographic advantage. It appears to me that the basis for this commonly used statement is the well established correlation between a mother’s educational achievement and her children’s academic success.

As an educated mother, I know myself and that in order to ensure my children succeed academically I have made efforts to ensure they have had a good educational opportunities. For me, that meant strong preschool, we sent them to a JKLM elementary, I was involved with the school, was a room parent, etc., They are currently a teen and a tween thriving in DCPS and I am not currently worried about how my children are doing academically or where they will go to college, they will have options and hopefully be engaged productive citizens.

My question is whether there more than correlation here because that correlation is used to be dismissive of what I view as legitimate concerns. That is not enough to address the legitimate concerns of parents that are worried about their kids’s education and calling worried parents racist for being skeptical does not foster progress.

As I have said above, I have no concern with my child going to a mixed SES (or racially mixed) school so long as I know that is a good school. I would also support expanding access to Wilson if it is adequately resourced (space, teaching staff, physical resources such as space and materials for specialized instruction) but that does not appear to be a priority of DCPS. I also understand that many parents would rather take actions to drive more academically prepared students to existing comprehensive high schools other than Wilson. I personally think a carrot approach would work better than a stick. It sounds like McKinley is a success story but it is an application school, not a comprehensive school open to all. Maybe there should be a centrally located city-wide high school (lottery by choice but not application) that is well resourced with advanced options that could use a carrot approach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am confused about what exactly OP defines as her goals for her child. A particular SAT scores? A $500K per year income? Admission to a particular college or university , or one that has a particular rank?

OP here. I asked a question about evidence for a statement that is commonly thrown around, that when children are high SES they will thrive at any school because of their demographic advantage. It appears to me that the basis for this commonly used statement is the well established correlation between a mother’s educational achievement and her children’s academic success.

As an educated mother, I know myself and that in order to ensure my children succeed academically I have made efforts to ensure they have had a good educational opportunities. For me, that meant strong preschool, we sent them to a JKLM elementary, I was involved with the school, was a room parent, etc., They are currently a teen and a tween thriving in DCPS and I am not currently worried about how my children are doing academically or where they will go to college, they will have options and hopefully be engaged productive citizens.

My question is whether there more than correlation here because that correlation is used to be dismissive of what I view as legitimate concerns. That is not enough to address the legitimate concerns of parents that are worried about their kids’s education and calling worried parents racist for being skeptical does not foster progress.

As I have said above, I have no concern with my child going to a mixed SES (or racially mixed) school so long as I know that is a good school. I would also support expanding access to Wilson if it is adequately resourced (space, teaching staff, physical resources such as space and materials for specialized instruction) but that does not appear to be a priority of DCPS. I also understand that many parents would rather take actions to drive more academically prepared students to existing comprehensive high schools other than Wilson. I personally think a carrot approach would work better than a stick. It sounds like McKinley is a success story but it is an application school, not a comprehensive school open to all. Maybe there should be a centrally located city-wide high school (lottery by choice but not application) that is well resourced with advanced options that could use a carrot approach.

Latin and Basis appear to be what you are looking for.

[Anonymous]

OP I am really sympathetic with your openness here. However in real life I think we are going to have to see some families leaping ahead of the resources being there for them down pat before big changes happen. The pulling off of the band-aid may come, but the idea that Calculus will be taught to empty classrooms at Coolidge for a couple years before your kids come (this is me trying to take your carrot before stick analogy and apply it to real life) is not realistic. Schools do not get budgets like that and it's hard to not see it as a waste. And OP I am not trying to dis you with this - it just seems like either someone goes ahead of the curve or DCPS and parents jump together. DCPS leading with no one coming isn't believable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP I am really sympathetic with your openness here. However in real life I think we are going to have to see some families leaping ahead of the resources being there for them down pat before big changes happen. The pulling off of the band-aid may come, but the idea that Calculus will be taught to empty classrooms at Coolidge for a couple years before your kids come (this is me trying to take your carrot before stick analogy and apply it to real life) is not realistic. Schools do not get budgets like that and it's hard to not see it as a waste. And OP I am not trying to dis you with this - it just seems like either someone goes ahead of the curve or DCPS and parents jump together. DCPS leading with no one coming isn't believable.

Again (not OP), no one who can avoid it wants their kid to be the guinea pig -- least of all rich people who already have access to a good school. And those rich people are loud. Are you willing to gamble with your kid's future? Not me.

DCPS will have to at some point:

-create decent alternatives
-be willing to remove the 760 OOB students at Wilson to create space
-expand the schools

Pick one.

[Anonymous]

I mean, I'm willing to move ahead of the promises and demand stuff for my kids like classes that meet their needs. That's one way to get it done for all of you (us, whatever).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean, I'm willing to move ahead of the promises and demand stuff for my kids like classes that meet their needs. That's one way to get it done for all of you (us, whatever).

And when you don't get them? Then what?

[Anonymous]

Ah, did I mention that I am a WHITE PERSON?

Bwahahaha "don't get what we want" hahahahahahaaaaa. Good one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But if 600 kids from Wilson were re-zoned to Coolidge, for example, the "high performing" cohort would be large enough to support the advanced kids basically immediately. Re-zone Shepherd and Lafayette, boom, it's done. (Coolidge had 310 kids in 17-18).

And the first few years of kids who enroll would have a rougher around the edges experience, but they'd also benefit pretty substantially in college admissions because they would far outperform Coolidge's "historic" stats.

You assume parents with options would sheepishly comply. Incorrect - they would go private or move.

Yeah, according to MySchoolDC (https://www.myschooldc.org/schools/profile/27), 73% of Coolidge students got a 1 on English PARCC and 44% on got a 1 in math. I'm willing to do some stuff for equity, but sending my kid to a school with those numbers is absolutely not on that list. Every parent I know well is in the same boat -- they would all move, go private or homeschool. If 600 Wilson students were zoned to Coolidge more than 400 would withdraw from DCPS.

It's weird to me that anybody seriously suggests this kind of solution. It's a little bit like Elizabeth Warren suggesting a 3% annual tax on the total wealth of billionaires. Billionaires would literally hire a trillion dollars worth of lobbying talent in order to defeat that idea. What makes anyone think anything like that would ever actually happen in the real world?

Or are we just amusing ourselves talking about a fantasy world unconnected to real life? If that's the game we're playing, then my proposal is that we use magic to make Wilson bigger on the inside than on the outside, like the tents in Harry Potter.

You do understand that if 600 passing students were to re-zoned, the percentage of kids getting 1% would be more like 20% right?