does athletics dominate SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To PP: how snarky. I lived in Williamstown attending Williams for 4 years. So… yes. Some love it. But when the days are gray for months, it is still muddy snow in April, and wind chill is -20, some people feel that a strong friend group would be helpful. As a freshman with no sport, I personally had a hard time generating that friend group. That was my only point.

+1 A bit defensive; zero empathy.

DD attends SLAC. Academically, everything we hoped for: STEM research position in her major and small seminar classes first year, all the instructors in the dance department know and like her. Socially it was difficult. Going in we knew varsity athletes averaged 25% of the school, but really surprised how fast people cliqued up: athletes, rich kids, URMs, LGBTQ+, first gen/low income. Small pool of non-attached kids spread out over campus. She has friends, but no posse or BFF. I think a bigger school offers a tradeoff with more people to meet but probably fewer academic opportunities.

Even 20 years ago, those groups cliqued fast because affinity groups were part of orientation and started opening their doors as soon as freshman were on campus

Were you a social outcast?

DP but that’s a non sequitur. Nice try.

Agree that at least since the 80s, LACs have had special interest houses, dorms, clubs, parties, lunch tables etc that facilitated the Balkanization of college students along many different lines. The small size of these schools in combination with that creates the cliquey atmosphere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To PP: how snarky. I lived in Williamstown attending Williams for 4 years. So… yes. Some love it. But when the days are gray for months, it is still muddy snow in April, and wind chill is -20, some people feel that a strong friend group would be helpful. As a freshman with no sport, I personally had a hard time generating that friend group. That was my only point.

+1 A bit defensive; zero empathy.

DD attends SLAC. Academically, everything we hoped for: STEM research position in her major and small seminar classes first year, all the instructors in the dance department know and like her. Socially it was difficult. Going in we knew varsity athletes averaged 25% of the school, but really surprised how fast people cliqued up: athletes, rich kids, URMs, LGBTQ+, first gen/low income. Small pool of non-attached kids spread out over campus. She has friends, but no posse or BFF. I think a bigger school offers a tradeoff with more people to meet but probably fewer academic opportunities.

Even 20 years ago, those groups cliqued fast because affinity groups were part of orientation and started opening their doors as soon as freshman were on campus

Were you a social outcast?

DP but that’s a non sequitur. Nice try.

Agree that at least since the 80s, LACs have had special interest houses, dorms, clubs, parties, lunch tables etc that facilitated the Balkanization of college students along many different lines. The small size of these schools in combination with that creates the cliquey atmosphere.

Not so much a "nice try" as a real question. To me the bigger problem is with the large colleges/universities with their frats, hazing, rushes, misogyny, racism, homophobia, hypermasculinity, etc. That's much more toxic and divisive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm trying to help my kid compile a list of colleges to explore. She's a top student at a magnet public school, with some regional and national level awards. She says she doesn't think she wants to go to a small school, but is willing to look at them. I've come across a few indicators that athletics dominates SLAC's like Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin (e.g., this article: https://www.gazettenet.com/Amherst-college-assesses-athletics-in-report-7871942). She's not an athlete. I'm not sure why a small school of about 2,000 people, where 40% of them are athletes who dominate the social scene and she is not part of that, would be a good fit for her. On the other hand, I keep hearing what a great education SLAC's provide. Anybody have any experience to offer about life for non-athletes at these sorts of schools?

OP: Athletes do dominate the social scene at many elite LACs (SLACs = selective liberal arts colleges). And you are right to consider this aspect of the college experience in advising your daughter. Although I would like to write that this aspect varies from LAC to LAC, I am not confident of doing so based on my knowledge & experience--certainly not for the SLACs specifically mentioned by you.

They dominate the social scenes at most selective schools, including the Ivies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To PP: how snarky. I lived in Williamstown attending Williams for 4 years. So… yes. Some love it. But when the days are gray for months, it is still muddy snow in April, and wind chill is -20, some people feel that a strong friend group would be helpful. As a freshman with no sport, I personally had a hard time generating that friend group. That was my only point.

+1 A bit defensive; zero empathy.

DD attends SLAC. Academically, everything we hoped for: STEM research position in her major and small seminar classes first year, all the instructors in the dance department know and like her. Socially it was difficult. Going in we knew varsity athletes averaged 25% of the school, but really surprised how fast people cliqued up: athletes, rich kids, URMs, LGBTQ+, first gen/low income. Small pool of non-attached kids spread out over campus. She has friends, but no posse or BFF. I think a bigger school offers a tradeoff with more people to meet but probably fewer academic opportunities.

Even 20 years ago, those groups cliqued fast because affinity groups were part of orientation and started opening their doors as soon as freshman were on campus

Were you a social outcast?

DP but that’s a non sequitur. Nice try.

Agree that at least since the 80s, LACs have had special interest houses, dorms, clubs, parties, lunch tables etc that facilitated the Balkanization of college students along many different lines. The small size of these schools in combination with that creates the cliquey atmosphere.

Not so much a "nice try" as a real question. To me the bigger problem is with the large colleges/universities with their frats, hazing, rushes, misogyny, racism, homophobia, hypermasculinity, etc. That's much more toxic and divisive.

Ahh-I think I misread the tone/ intension. My apologies. 😃

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To PP: how snarky. I lived in Williamstown attending Williams for 4 years. So… yes. Some love it. But when the days are gray for months, it is still muddy snow in April, and wind chill is -20, some people feel that a strong friend group would be helpful. As a freshman with no sport, I personally had a hard time generating that friend group. That was my only point.

+1 A bit defensive; zero empathy.

DD attends SLAC. Academically, everything we hoped for: STEM research position in her major and small seminar classes first year, all the instructors in the dance department know and like her. Socially it was difficult. Going in we knew varsity athletes averaged 25% of the school, but really surprised how fast people cliqued up: athletes, rich kids, URMs, LGBTQ+, first gen/low income. Small pool of non-attached kids spread out over campus. She has friends, but no posse or BFF. I think a bigger school offers a tradeoff with more people to meet but probably fewer academic opportunities.

Even 20 years ago, those groups cliqued fast because affinity groups were part of orientation and started opening their doors as soon as freshman were on campus

Were you a social outcast?

DP but that’s a non sequitur. Nice try.

Agree that at least since the 80s, LACs have had special interest houses, dorms, clubs, parties, lunch tables etc that facilitated the Balkanization of college students along many different lines. The small size of these schools in combination with that creates the cliquey atmosphere.

Not so much a "nice try" as a real question. To me the bigger problem is with the large colleges/universities with their frats, hazing, rushes, misogyny, racism, homophobia, hypermasculinity, etc. That's much more toxic and divisive.

Ahh-I think I misread the tone/ intension. My apologies. 😃

But— most of the items you added on are in LACs too, so…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Curious, how many of the kids/athletes at Amherst, Williams, etc. come from boarding school? Looking at the roster in DS's sport, the teams appear to be compromised of mostly boarding school kids.

This is of interest to me as well.

If I may ask, which boarding schools do you see represented & , if willing to disclose, at which LAC ? TIA

I’m an alum and there were definitely a lot of boarding school kids from the usual suspects in NE, a couple in CA, etc. A lot of the top athletes did come fe boarding but other than squash I wouldn’t say they dominated anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To PP: how snarky. I lived in Williamstown attending Williams for 4 years. So… yes. Some love it. But when the days are gray for months, it is still muddy snow in April, and wind chill is -20, some people feel that a strong friend group would be helpful. As a freshman with no sport, I personally had a hard time generating that friend group. That was my only point.

+1 A bit defensive; zero empathy.

DD attends SLAC. Academically, everything we hoped for: STEM research position in her major and small seminar classes first year, all the instructors in the dance department know and like her. Socially it was difficult. Going in we knew varsity athletes averaged 25% of the school, but really surprised how fast people cliqued up: athletes, rich kids, URMs, LGBTQ+, first gen/low income. Small pool of non-attached kids spread out over campus. She has friends, but no posse or BFF. I think a bigger school offers a tradeoff with more people to meet but probably fewer academic opportunities.

Even 20 years ago, those groups cliqued fast because affinity groups were part of orientation and started opening their doors as soon as freshman were on campus

Were you a social outcast?

DP but that’s a non sequitur. Nice try.

Agree that at least since the 80s, LACs have had special interest houses, dorms, clubs, parties, lunch tables etc that facilitated the Balkanization of college students along many different lines. The small size of these schools in combination with that creates the cliquey atmosphere.

Not so much a "nice try" as a real question. To me the bigger problem is with the large colleges/universities with their frats, hazing, rushes, misogyny, racism, homophobia, hypermasculinity, etc. That's much more toxic and divisive.

Ahh-I think I misread the tone/ intension. My apologies. 😃

But— most of the items you added on are in LACs too, so…

Actually, SLAC's like Amherst, Bowdoin, etc. prohibit frats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Curious, how many of the kids/athletes at Amherst, Williams, etc. come from boarding school? Looking at the roster in DS's sport, the teams appear to be compromised of mostly boarding school kids.

Boarding school or private school for DD’s sports. Not too many public school athletes at these schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Amherst grad here. Academics by far dominates over athletics. Not even close. Hell, the a capella group at Amherst is more popular than the athletic teams.

One of my coworkers graduated from Amherst in 2018 and he regretted going there because of the  cost.  He didn't get any discount and had to pay in-full.  He graduated with 150K in student loan debt for a bachelor degree.  He is currently making about 90K/year with a monthly payment of 1,800 in student loans. He could have gotten the same degree from UVA for less than the cost and without student loans.

A lot of anecdotal accounts. Some like it, and some don't. True for all colleges. Just do your best to find the best fit. Granted, it may be a leap of faith in some cases but most students adapt - its a part of life.

Very reasonable perspective.

The way that I view this thread is that it is not to condemn elite SLACs such as Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Williams, etc, but that it is to inform those who have the option to attend one or more of these outstanding academic institutions. This is important for a variety of reasons: college is a huge investment of time & money at a very sensitive & formative time for most, and students admitted to any of these super elite SLACs may have other options that include top 25 National Universities.

No college or university is perfect. But, for most, these four years of undergraduate study have a life-long effect.

Maybe this is not fair, but if a student does not fit-in at an LAC, I tend to blame the school culture whereas if a student does not fit in at a National University, I blame the student. Why ? Because size matters with respect to options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Williams grad. I felt out of place NOT being an athlete. Especially true freshman year when the teams had been together already for two weeks. I started a sport just to try to make some friends. Honestly it was a bit hard.

If I may ask, where do you wish that you had attended college/university if you were accepted to any school of interest to you ?

I ask because I think that Williams College deserves its top ranking among LACs, and I am attracted to many aspects of the school, but I also attended a rural LAC and really regret the experience (even though I was very athletic).

I should have gone to somewhere closer to DC, with more options than drinking for fun. Bryn Mawr, Haverford, Swarthmore? I was rejected from Princeton. The rural aspect of Williams has some shades of Deliverance in the winter. It can be pretty isolating without a strong friend group.

Thank you for responding to my question.

I, too, was rejected by Princeton and I wish that I had attended another school with more social options that did not involve drinking.

[b]

NP -- I don't know if this is any consolation, but my DH went to Princeton and his experience was that people there drank a ton (and still do at reunions). He got a great education at Princeton and has good friends from his college years, but he found suburban NJ pretty dull.

The two most-LAC-like Ivies, Princeton & Dartmouth, are well known in this respect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Amherst grad here. Academics by far dominates over athletics. Not even close. Hell, the a capella group at Amherst is more popular than the athletic teams.

One of my coworkers graduated from Amherst in 2018 and he regretted going there because of the  cost.  He didn't get any discount and had to pay in-full.  He graduated with 150K in student loan debt for a bachelor degree.  He is currently making about 90K/year with a monthly payment of 1,800 in student loans. He could have gotten the same degree from UVA for less than the cost and without student loans.

A lot of anecdotal accounts. Some like it, and some don't. True for all colleges. Just do your best to find the best fit. Granted, it may be a leap of faith in some cases but most students adapt - its a part of life.

Very reasonable perspective.

The way that I view this thread is that it is not to condemn elite SLACs such as Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Williams, etc, but that it is to inform those who have the option to attend one or more of these outstanding academic institutions. This is important for a variety of reasons: college is a huge investment of time & money at a very sensitive & formative time for most, and students admitted to any of these super elite SLACs may have other options that include top 25 National Universities.

No college or university is perfect. But, for most, these four years of undergraduate study have a life-long effect.

Maybe this is not fair, but if a student does not fit-in at an LAC, I tend to blame the school culture whereas if a student does not fit in at a National University, I blame the student. Why ? Because size matters with respect to options.

I don’t think “blame” is the right attitude. Students in general make the best decision they can at the time. I would also add that at a larger school, a student may (perhaps paradoxically) feel even more isolated

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Amherst grad here. Academics by far dominates over athletics. Not even close. Hell, the a capella group at Amherst is more popular than the athletic teams.

One of my coworkers graduated from Amherst in 2018 and he regretted going there because of the  cost.  He didn't get any discount and had to pay in-full.  He graduated with 150K in student loan debt for a bachelor degree.  He is currently making about 90K/year with a monthly payment of 1,800 in student loans. He could have gotten the same degree from UVA for less than the cost and without student loans.

He might have gotten the same degree, but not the same education. You have to decide if the difference is worth it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Amherst grad here. Academics by far dominates over athletics. Not even close. Hell, the a capella group at Amherst is more popular than the athletic teams.

One of my coworkers graduated from Amherst in 2018 and he regretted going there because of the  cost.  He didn't get any discount and had to pay in-full.  He graduated with 150K in student loan debt for a bachelor degree.  He is currently making about 90K/year with a monthly payment of 1,800 in student loans. He could have gotten the same degree from UVA for less than the cost and without student loans.

He might have gotten the same degree, but not the same education. You have to decide if the difference is worth it.

Sounds like they have