Does anyone have language immersion regrets?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:there is a remarkable amount of vitriol on this thread considering we're talking about elementary school. who knew where kids attend second grade could incite so such anger? everyone is so angry.

I actually think there are just a couple of angry, bitter posters—everyone else is flummoxed at their angry responses.

Come on, pps who rightly point out obvious problems with DC's current half-baked charter immersion programs aren't "angry and bitter posters." Get a grip.

You've got to supplement a lot to ensure that the kids can really speak these languages. Most immersion parents don't do this because they don't understand what it takes for the kids to grow up bilingual, don't care if the kids can really speak the languages taught, can't afford to supplement much, or some combination of these three things.

In DC, immersion is mainly a path to public schools with few poor AA kids who complicate learning for UMC kids of all races. No different than buying or renting pricey real estate to access the dozen DCPS schools with really low FARMs rates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Much of the discussion in this thread ignores the fact that almost 80% of DCPS students are economically disadvantaged (not sure about charter %), many of whom come from tough/unstable home environments and/or neighborhoods. We are lucky enough to afford to travel for further language exposure, hire tutors/au pairs, etc.

However, most DC families cannot do this. And I doubt most would argue that a family in Ward 8 is trying to exploit immigrants by trying to lottery into an immersion school. Should poor English-speaking DC families not be given the opportunity to send their kids to an immersion school?

Very good points.

[Anonymous]

Honestly, as someone who grew up going to public schools with both high FARMS and large AA populations, immersion programs are a benefit, whatever your motivation. In my career I've prioritized intenrational companies and organizations, and have learned to speak multiple languages. I wish that I'd had the opportunity to participate as a child instead of laboring as an adult/college student.

Please don't underestimate people's ability to recognize the value of immersion. Maybe perfection isn't the goal? Just broader world view. There are proven benefits, even though it can be challenging, and also impact kids learning.

We are friends with those categorized as either AA or farms, and from our anecdotal exposure they are just like everyone else- trying to get their kids to have a good education, a bright future, period.

There should be enough happiness to go around for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Much of the discussion in this thread ignores the fact that almost 80% of DCPS students are economically disadvantaged (not sure about charter %), many of whom come from tough/unstable home environments and/or neighborhoods. We are lucky enough to afford to travel for further language exposure, hire tutors/au pairs, etc.

However, most DC families cannot do this. And I doubt most would argue that a family in Ward 8 is trying to exploit immigrants by trying to lottery into an immersion school. Should poor English-speaking DC families not be given the opportunity to send their kids to an immersion school?

Very good points.

OSSE (therefore DCPS) isn't reporting economically disadvantaged anymore; they are publicly tracking at-risk students (children in foster care, in families that qualify for TANF or SNAP, homess students and high school students more than one-grade behind their expected grade based on their age).

In 17-18
48% of DCPS students are at-risk.
44% of charters students are at risk (this may be slightly skewed because charters enrollment includes 4543 adult students and DCPS has 403, and adults students are not included in the 'at-risk' category)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Much of the discussion in this thread ignores the fact that almost 80% of DCPS students are economically disadvantaged (not sure about charter %), many of whom come from tough/unstable home environments and/or neighborhoods. We are lucky enough to afford to travel for further language exposure, hire tutors/au pairs, etc.

However, most DC families cannot do this. And I doubt most would argue that a family in Ward 8 is trying to exploit immigrants by trying to lottery into an immersion school. Should poor English-speaking DC families not be given the opportunity to send their kids to an immersion school?

Very good points.

OSSE (therefore DCPS) isn't reporting economically disadvantaged anymore; they are publicly tracking at-risk students (children in foster care, in families that qualify for TANF or SNAP, homess students and high school students more than one-grade behind their expected grade based on their age).

In 17-18
48% of DCPS students are at-risk.
44% of charters students are at risk (this may be slightly skewed because charters enrollment includes 4543 adult students and DCPS has 403, and adults students are not included in the 'at-risk' category)

I'm the PP that mentioned economically disadvantaged. I was referring to this site, where it states based on 2017-2018 data, that 77% of DCPS students are considered economically disadvantaged.

https://dcps.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/dcps/publication/attachments/DCPS%20Fast%20Facts%202017-18.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:there is a remarkable amount of vitriol on this thread considering we're talking about elementary school. who knew where kids attend second grade could incite so such anger? everyone is so angry.

I actually think there are just a couple of angry, bitter posters—everyone else is flummoxed at their angry responses.

Come on, pps who rightly point out obvious problems with DC's current half-baked charter immersion programs aren't "angry and bitter posters." Get a grip.

You've got to supplement a lot to ensure that the kids can really speak these languages. Most immersion parents don't do this because they don't understand what it takes for the kids to grow up bilingual, don't care if the kids can really speak the languages taught, can't afford to supplement much, or some combination of these three things.

In DC, immersion is mainly a path to public schools with few poor AA kids who complicate learning for UMC kids of all races. No different than buying or renting pricey real estate to access the dozen DCPS schools with really low FARMs rates.

I would say that depending on your viewpoint and particularly your expectations, what some might see as “obvious problems” are not necessarily seen as such by others. I would not characterize parents “not caring if the kids can really speak the languages taught”... parents may simply have different expectations: some may expect near-perfect bilingualism (which in reality is almost never achieved) and therefore feel the need to supplement with nannies, au pairs, vacations; whereas other parents may be happy if their kids acquire some proficiency (enough to follow along and participate in class, of course) without being truly bilingual at the end. I would not judge one approach as being better than the other, particularly at the elementary school level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, as someone who grew up going to public schools with both high FARMS and large AA populations, immersion programs are a benefit, whatever your motivation. In my career I've prioritized intenrational companies and organizations, and have learned to speak multiple languages. I wish that I'd had the opportunity to participate as a child instead of laboring as an adult/college student.

Please don't underestimate people's ability to recognize the value of immersion. Maybe perfection isn't the goal? Just broader world view. There are proven benefits, even though it can be challenging, and also impact kids learning.

We are friends with those categorized as either AA or farms, and from our anecdotal exposure they are just like everyone else- trying to get their kids to have a good education, a bright future, period.

There should be enough happiness to go around for everyone.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:YY and DCI, what a recipe for mediocrity.

More than 90% of the parents simply can't afford JKLM, Georgetown, Dupont for Ross, Capitol Hill for Brent or Maury, so they try to convince you that they're eager for the kids to speak Mandarin. Mostly crappy Mandarin but they can't hear it.

This argument is stale and reeks of elitism.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:YY and DCI, what a recipe for mediocrity.

More than 90% of the parents simply can't afford JKLM, Georgetown, Dupont for Ross, Capitol Hill for Brent or Maury, so they try to convince you that they're eager for the kids to speak Mandarin. Mostly crappy Mandarin but they can't hear it.

This argument is stale and reeks of elitism.

I think in China elitism is considered ok. Communism history notwithstanding. Racism, too.

[Anonymous]

These are public schools and children we are talking about. Parents not fluent in the target language are not "taking" anything from "more deserving" kids. This would be like saying that the children of immigrants are "taking" school resources because their parents are non native English speakers and valuable class time is spent on trying to close the very real achievement gap in English language for these students. If we reject that kind of bigoted thinking, then we must reject the idea that immersion programs should be limited to the languages parents can support on a native level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The tyranny of low expectations guides your thinking, PP. You've set up a false dichotomy - a binary choice between a program which wholeheartedly rejects best practices in immersion instruction and failing in-boundary school. Why not aim higher, at least in your thinking about options, including those you can work to create?

We left YY because admins clearly didn't have a clue about what they were doing with "immersion," among other things. Yes, it was a cozy, eye-pleasing, pleasantly diverse school. But the Chinese wasn't being taught well, and the rest of the program was merely passable.

We're New Yorkers, magnet high school grads, used to better quality public school offerings. We bailed for a strong in-boundary DCPS EotP (that's right), home schooling in Chinese (one of us is a native speaker), and MoCo heritage school where immersion really works.

We don't hate YY, we just weren't impressed.

We're leaving in the Fall. You nailed it except that the rest of the program is less than passable as evidenced by the test scores. It's amazing how poorly the administration has been running this school considering the strong demographics of the school with great diversity and very involved parents. The Chinese program isn't strong enough to make up for everything else you have to give up to get it. It's a shame because the foundation was there for this to be a great school, but the right leadership isn't in place. I blame the board for not demanding better results.

[Anonymous]

Some ideas:

https://tcf.org/content/commentary/improving-equitable-access-dual-language-immersion-charter-schools-washington-d-c/?agreed=1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Some ideas:

https://tcf.org/content/commentary/improving-equitable-access-dual-language-immersion-charter-schools-washington-d-c/?agreed=1

"Instead, the city could simplify the process by only allowing students whose families qualify as low-income to register their children for the EL preference. This would ensure that, for instance, privileged families who strategically employ linguistically diverse nannies would not qualify, while providing more equitable access for EL children from low-income backgrounds. In addition to being much simpler to implement, this approach would dovetail with existing D.C. policy thinking around whether to allow schools to give “at-risk” students preferential weighting in school lotteries."

Wow this sounds like a great idea. Low-income, language dominant preference at immersion schools. Much like at DCPS dual language schools, but, also targeting at risk kids a bit more. But even if it were just a language dominant preference, or EL preference rather, that would be amazing. I didn't realize there were so many options; I have only ever heard that Congress prevents immersion schools from balancing out their native speakers with English speakers, end of story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The tyranny of low expectations guides your thinking, PP. You've set up a false dichotomy - a binary choice between a program which wholeheartedly rejects best practices in immersion instruction and failing in-boundary school. Why not aim higher, at least in your thinking about options, including those you can work to create?

We left YY because admins clearly didn't have a clue about what they were doing with "immersion," among other things. Yes, it was a cozy, eye-pleasing, pleasantly diverse school. But the Chinese wasn't being taught well, and the rest of the program was merely passable.

We're New Yorkers, magnet high school grads, used to better quality public school offerings. We bailed for a strong in-boundary DCPS EotP (that's right), home schooling in Chinese (one of us is a native speaker), and MoCo heritage school where immersion really works.

We don't hate YY, we just weren't impressed.

We're leaving in the Fall. You nailed it except that the rest of the program is less than passable as evidenced by the test scores. It's amazing how poorly the administration has been running this school considering the strong demographics of the school with great diversity and very involved parents. The Chinese program isn't strong enough to make up for everything else you have to give up to get it. It's a shame because the foundation was there for this to be a great school, but the right leadership isn't in place. I blame the board for not demanding better results.

You're my favorite PP on any YY thread. Fellow New Yorker? I am thoroughly unimpressed with the dumbing down of the curriculum at YY and DCI. The non-immersion Spanish classes we had in middle school were pitched to a higher level than the "advanced immersion" 6th grade Spanish class I sat in on at DCI.

My spouse is bilingual in English and Chinese (speaks a couple dialects, understands several). He left YY convinced that one of the main reasons the administration runs the school poorly is because the head is in no position to manage her big team of teachers effectively. The teachers don't respect her as a group, and not just because she has a tenuous relationship w/Chinese language and culture. She doesn't know when her Chinese teachers are running her down in their dialects, smiling to cover their malice, when she's standing right there. Teachers call her unkind names in her immediate presence and that of other adults, assuming that they're having private conversations. Really too much for us.

We fled to a strong DCPS after one school year.When we politely complained to board members about pervasive poor management and low test scores for the demographic, they shrugged, noted YY's wild popularity, and advised us to find another public school.

New York public school parents wouldn't fall for this paper tiger, whether low or high SES.

[Anonymous]

Hardly anybody cares. YuYing is good enough for more than 90% of parents who take a spot, in the lower grades anyway.

Mandarin works to support the desired high SES demographic.