TPMS MAP-M scores

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a shortcoming of MAP, although NWEA doesn’t look at it that way. You should remember MAP was designed to measure progress and identify students who aren’t meeting benchmarks.

It was never intended for finding students eligible for access to higher level math or gifted programs. And if it’s used for such the data only works when a lower cut off score is applied around 90%.

As far moving from 2-5 to 6+. It is not so much the increased difficulty of questions in 6+ that causes a dip, but the *lack* difficult questions in 2-5. High achieving kids with focus can score high on 2-5 just by answering arithmetic problems with high accuracy. There are questions drawn from 6th and 7th grade, but a student does not necessarily need to answer these to get a score in the 99%. If they do they score jumps up, perhaps artificially so. The closer a student is to the ceiling of a test the less accurate the score.

The 6+ includes content from 3rd grade through high school algebra and geometry. Disclaimer: MAP is a norm-referenced assessment. It’s not a criterion-referenced assessment. That means you cannot use it to assess a child’s grade level. You cannot determine your 6th grader is *at* a ninth grade level from this test.

Bottom line: MAP is almost meaningless for kid in the top percentiles. It’s not designed for them.

Take this post with a grain of salt. PP's child must have gotten a 90th percentile score. Only some of what you wrote is true. You just made up the 90th percentile. That is not at all what MAP says and what school districts that use the test say. But if it makes you feel better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a shortcoming of MAP, although NWEA doesn’t look at it that way. You should remember MAP was designed to measure progress and identify students who aren’t meeting benchmarks.

It was never intended for finding students eligible for access to higher level math or gifted programs. And if it’s used for such the data only works when a lower cut off score is applied around 90%.

As far moving from 2-5 to 6+. It is not so much the increased difficulty of questions in 6+ that causes a dip, but the *lack* difficult questions in 2-5. High achieving kids with focus can score high on 2-5 just by answering arithmetic problems with high accuracy. There are questions drawn from 6th and 7th grade, but a student does not necessarily need to answer these to get a score in the 99%. If they do they score jumps up, perhaps artificially so. The closer a student is to the ceiling of a test the less accurate the score.

The 6+ includes content from 3rd grade through high school algebra and geometry. Disclaimer: MAP is a norm-referenced assessment. It’s not a criterion-referenced assessment. That means you cannot use it to assess a child’s grade level. You cannot determine your 6th grader is *at* a ninth grade level from this test.

Bottom line: MAP is almost meaningless for kid in the top percentiles. It’s not designed for them.

Take this post with a grain of salt. PP's child must have gotten a 90th percentile score. Only some of what you wrote is true. You just made up the 90th percentile. That is not at all what MAP says and what school districts that use the test say. But if it makes you feel better.

My children have never taken the NWEA MAP.

“MAP” doesn’t say anything about what percentile to use. In fact “MAP”, or representatives from NWEA, explicitly state that MAP scores should not be used for gifted and talented selection. At all.

My 90 percentile comes from the fact that reliability of scores nearing 99% breaks down. Many school districts use MAP as a screener for further gifted testing. Many use, for example, a threshold of 90 or 95 scores in 2 of 3 successive test administrations.

[Anonymous]

are the percentage scores 92-95-99 etc. based on state or school district? I also didn't realize there was such huge range of scores at 99 percent level. DC got high 230's(4th grade fall) and it was 99 % but it sounds like this range goes well over 260. we're in DC but moving to MD and was wondering if the ranges are different in different states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:are the percentage scores 92-95-99 etc. based on state or school district? I also didn't realize there was such huge range of scores at 99 percent level. DC got high 230's(4th grade fall) and it was 99 % but it sounds like this range goes well over 260. we're in DC but moving to MD and was wondering if the ranges are different in different states.

The student report lists the scores at the school and county and state level. The percentage in the national score.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:are the percentage scores 92-95-99 etc. based on state or school district? I also didn't realize there was such huge range of scores at 99 percent level. DC got high 230's(4th grade fall) and it was 99 % but it sounds like this range goes well over 260. we're in DC but moving to MD and was wondering if the ranges are different in different states.

The student report lists the scores at the school and county and state level. The percentage in the national score.

Remember, it is a percentile not a percentage.
Percentiles compare students to other students who also took the test, typically by grade or age at the national or state level. Once you reach the upper end percentiles there can be quite a range of scores.

[Anonymous]

MAP scores are absolutely not the right measurement. Why? Because kids can take their own time doing it. The schools are pushing URM students to take days to finish their MAP exams and then they show their scores as a proof that these kids are equally competitive as someone who has done it in a timed manner in a few hours. Sorry, but they are doing no group any favors by doing so.

The URMs continue to be academically underachieving because no one really wants to really solve the unsolvable. The magnet programs has provided the big distraction from the issue of underachievement of URMs. Achievement gap will continue to grow even if magnet programs will eventually come to an end. This is very interesting times because these kids will be entering the workforce not able to cope because they really do not have the skills.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MAP scores are absolutely not the right measurement. Why? Because kids can take their own time doing it. The schools are pushing URM students to take days to finish their MAP exams and then they show their scores as a proof that these kids are equally competitive as someone who has done it in a timed manner in a few hours. Sorry, but they are doing no group any favors by doing so.

The URMs continue to be academically underachieving because no one really wants to really solve the unsolvable. The magnet programs has provided the big distraction from the issue of underachievement of URMs. Achievement gap will continue to grow even if magnet programs will eventually come to an end. This is very interesting times because these kids will be entering the workforce not able to cope because they really do not have the skills.

Do you even know how MAP M test is graded. True that there’s not much time limit so to say but if a student does not answer the question right, the next question is easier and there’s a drop in the MAP M score. So how goes it help so called URM who in your theory take their sweet time to solve the same question as your high scoring non urm snowflake. BTW, a w parent with a very high performing magnet DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MAP scores are absolutely not the right measurement. Why? Because kids can take their own time doing it. The schools are pushing URM students to take days to finish their MAP exams and then they show their scores as a proof that these kids are equally competitive as someone who has done it in a timed manner in a few hours. Sorry, but they are doing no group any favors by doing so.

The URMs continue to be academically underachieving because no one really wants to really solve the unsolvable. The magnet programs has provided the big distraction from the issue of underachievement of URMs. Achievement gap will continue to grow even if magnet programs will eventually come to an end. This is very interesting times because these kids will be entering the workforce not able to cope because they really do not have the skills.

Do you even know how MAP M test is graded. True that there’s not much time limit so to say but if a student does not answer the question right, the next question is easier and there’s a drop in the MAP M score. So how goes it help so called URM who in your theory take their sweet time to solve the same question as your high scoring non urm snowflake. BTW, a w parent with a very high performing magnet DC.

Not the PP, but just playing the devil's advocate: theoretically it is possible to improve MAP-M scores if a student is allowed to, as the PP says, "take days to finish.." For any question that stumps the student, he or she can discuss the concept with an adult and then come back to complete it ... javascript:emoticon('');

But I have personally never heard of kids being allowed to take days to finish the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So your child's scores fell from a 99-99-99 number to a 98-99-99 number? That's unfortunate, but that probably means he wasn't at the high end of the 99th percentile kids in the first place. I don't think it will change his chances to get in to a magnet very much.

Our experience is with the CES this year so obviously different from applying to MS magnets but it seemed like all the real outliers with 99th percentile scores for several grades higher got into the CES. No matter what you hear on DCUM there are not a lot of these kids.

For the 99th percentile at grade level kids it seemed like a crap shoot. Some got in and some did not. DD's CES class is filled with these kids and there are at least a dozen more at her home school who are excellent students too.

You have no understanding of standardized testing and MAP. The difference between a 98th percentile score and a 99th percentile score is meaningless; it is will within the margin of error for testing. If MCPS is using such fine score cuts as distinguishing one candidate as meaningfully different and better able to succeed from another, than they are misusing the data.

Also, tests like the MAP and other standardized tests largely have difficulty distinguishing between highly able students at the high end of the tale. Both Einstein and his highly able college professor probably could score on the 99th percentile of a math achievement test, but they clearly have different levels of ability.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MAP scores are absolutely not the right measurement. Why? Because kids can take their own time doing it. The schools are pushing URM students to take days to finish their MAP exams and then they show their scores as a proof that these kids are equally competitive as someone who has done it in a timed manner in a few hours. Sorry, but they are doing no group any favors by doing so.

The URMs continue to be academically underachieving because no one really wants to really solve the unsolvable. The magnet programs has provided the big distraction from the issue of underachievement of URMs. Achievement gap will continue to grow even if magnet programs will eventually come to an end. This is very interesting times because these kids will be entering the workforce not able to cope because they really do not have the skills.

Do you even know how MAP M test is graded. True that there’s not much time limit so to say but if a student does not answer the question right, the next question is easier and there’s a drop in the MAP M score. So how goes it help so called URM who in your theory take their sweet time to solve the same question as your high scoring non urm snowflake. BTW, a w parent with a very high performing magnet DC.

Not the PP, but just playing the devil's advocate: theoretically it is possible to improve MAP-M scores if a student is allowed to, as the PP says, "take days to finish.." For any question that stumps the student, he or she can discuss the concept with an adult and then come back to complete it ... javascript:emoticon('');

But I have personally never heard of kids being allowed to take days to finish the test.

There is no time limit on the test, and I personally know of students who take extra days. There is always someone whose Chrome Book doesn't work. Once kids get into Middle School, many schools have shorter class periods (45 minutes) and by the time there is intro, set up, log in, etc., children are left with 30 minutes per session and may need more time. Often, kids have issues that would be the basis for a time accommodation in timed tests, but in MAP it just gets pushed to extra days. The test resets after 28 days, though, so if you miss the deadline you have to start again at the beginning.

Scrap papers have to be turned in, though, so anyone who wanted to boost their score by learning mathematical concepts while the test was in progress would have to have a good memory!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MAP scores are absolutely not the right measurement. Why? Because kids can take their own time doing it. The schools are pushing URM students to take days to finish their MAP exams and then they show their scores as a proof that these kids are equally competitive as someone who has done it in a timed manner in a few hours. Sorry, but they are doing no group any favors by doing so.

The URMs continue to be academically underachieving because no one really wants to really solve the unsolvable. The magnet programs has provided the big distraction from the issue of underachievement of URMs. Achievement gap will continue to grow even if magnet programs will eventually come to an end. This is very interesting times because these kids will be entering the workforce not able to cope because they really do not have the skills.

Do you even know how MAP M test is graded. True that there’s not much time limit so to say but if a student does not answer the question right, the next question is easier and there’s a drop in the MAP M score. So how goes it help so called URM who in your theory take their sweet time to solve the same question as your high scoring non urm snowflake. BTW, a w parent with a very high performing magnet DC.

Not the PP, but just playing the devil's advocate: theoretically it is possible to improve MAP-M scores if a student is allowed to, as the PP says, "take days to finish.." For any question that stumps the student, he or she can discuss the concept with an adult and then come back to complete it ... javascript:emoticon('');

But I have personally never heard of kids being allowed to take days to finish the test.

No, you can't do that. You have to finish the question and you are not displayed the next question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So your child's scores fell from a 99-99-99 number to a 98-99-99 number? That's unfortunate, but that probably means he wasn't at the high end of the 99th percentile kids in the first place. I don't think it will change his chances to get in to a magnet very much.

Our experience is with the CES this year so obviously different from applying to MS magnets but it seemed like all the real outliers with 99th percentile scores for several grades higher got into the CES. No matter what you hear on DCUM there are not a lot of these kids.

For the 99th percentile at grade level kids it seemed like a crap shoot. Some got in and some did not. DD's CES class is filled with these kids and there are at least a dozen more at her home school who are excellent students too.

You have no understanding of standardized testing and MAP. The difference between a 98th percentile score and a 99th percentile score is meaningless; it is will within the margin of error for testing. If MCPS is using such fine score cuts as distinguishing one candidate as meaningfully different and better able to succeed from another, than they are misusing the data.

Also, tests like the MAP and other standardized tests largely have difficulty distinguishing between highly able students at the high end of the tale. Both Einstein and his highly able college professor probably could score on the 99th percentile of a math achievement test, but they clearly have different levels of ability.

I think you need a lesson in basic math and you need to calm down and not spread misinformation. Student a with 260 MAP-r (99th) is statistically different from Student b with a 230 map-r (99th). The score of Student c with a 225 map-r (98th) may be within the margin of error of student b (99th) so their scores are effectively the same. But both Students b and c are not anywhere near Student a. It is the Student As that are being admitted first into these programs. The Student bs and cs are sometimes in and sometimes not in. The standard error does get bigger at the high end but it is closer to 10, not 30.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MAP scores are absolutely not the right measurement. Why? Because kids can take their own time doing it. The schools are pushing URM students to take days to finish their MAP exams and then they show their scores as a proof that these kids are equally competitive as someone who has done it in a timed manner in a few hours. Sorry, but they are doing no group any favors by doing so.

The URMs continue to be academically underachieving because no one really wants to really solve the unsolvable. The magnet programs has provided the big distraction from the issue of underachievement of URMs. Achievement gap will continue to grow even if magnet programs will eventually come to an end. This is very interesting times because these kids will be entering the workforce not able to cope because they really do not have the skills.

Do you even know how MAP M test is graded. True that there’s not much time limit so to say but if a student does not answer the question right, the next question is easier and there’s a drop in the MAP M score. So how goes it help so called URM who in your theory take their sweet time to solve the same question as your high scoring non urm snowflake. BTW, a w parent with a very high performing magnet DC.

Not the PP, but just playing the devil's advocate: theoretically it is possible to improve MAP-M scores if a student is allowed to, as the PP says, "take days to finish.." For any question that stumps the student, he or she can discuss the concept with an adult and then come back to complete it ... javascript:emoticon('');

But I have personally never heard of kids being allowed to take days to finish the test.

No, you can't do that. You have to finish the question and you are not displayed the next question.

You can't do what?

The point is, if the students are allowed to take days to finish their exam, whenever a student is stumped by a question, he can pause and not proceed to the next question, until he gets the answer right.

[Anonymous]

You cannot pause in the middle of a question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You cannot pause in the middle of a question.

Actually you can. You just don't finish it and then come back the next day and resume. In our school many students took days to finish the test. Not that it matters one way or another, except make some students think that they are competitive when they are not. The way many standardized tests are set up - SAT, ACT, APs - you are supposed to be able to answer a set amount of questions in a given finite time. Many students who score high in MAP in MCPS are doing poorly on these standardized exams because they have not really mastered the content and concepts. Perhaps we need to give all of them IEPs for life? Being an MCPS student is a disability at times, is it not?