TPMS MAP-M scores

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about all the kids who had MAP-M scores that high and did NOT get in. Did they also not deserve to be there?

This is the heart of the complaint. That MCPS uses murky selection tools to select a certain profile from the pool of qualified students. IE, prioritizing students from lower-income areas in a bid to reduce specific ethnic gaps. Now whether that complaint will hold up as the cohorts are selected year after year, remains to be seen.

Oddly, nobody on DCUM ever asked that question when MCPS used the previous murky selection process. It only became a concern when affluent west-county parents became worried that their children were being passed over for those other children, over there, who must be less deserving.

First, there is nothing odd when parents are concerned about unfairness towards their own kids.
Also these questions arise only because the changes MCPS are making, are clearly aimed at selecting more students from certain groups. If people do not believe these certain groups were treated unfairly by MCPS in previous selection process, then increasing their share would certainly raise alarms.

Right. You're not worried about kids who deserve to be there but didn't get to go. You're worried about YOUR OWN KID. All the other kids who deserved to be there but didn't get to go? ¯\_(?)_/¯

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about all the kids who had MAP-M scores that high and did NOT get in. Did they also not deserve to be there?

This is the heart of the complaint. That MCPS uses murky selection tools to select a certain profile from the pool of qualified students. IE, prioritizing students from lower-income areas in a bid to reduce specific ethnic gaps. Now whether that complaint will hold up as the cohorts are selected year after year, remains to be seen.

Oddly, nobody on DCUM ever asked that question when MCPS used the previous murky selection process. It only became a concern when affluent west-county parents became worried that their children were being passed over for those other children, over there, who must be less deserving.

First, there is nothing odd when parents are concerned about unfairness towards their own kids.
Also these questions arise only because the changes MCPS are making, are clearly aimed at selecting more students from certain groups. If people do not believe these certain groups were treated unfairly by MCPS in previous selection process, then increasing their share would certainly raise alarms.

Right. You're not worried about kids who deserve to be there but didn't get to go. You're worried about YOUR OWN KID. All the other kids who deserved to be there but didn't get to go? ¯\_(?)_/¯

1. I was only telling you it is NOT ODD that people are more concerned about the unfairness toward their kids. Whether people should all be concerned about other unfairness in the world, is not my point. Maybe you want to force everyone to be concerned about every issue involving some unfairness?

2. Apparently I hold the opinion that the previous selection criteria were more fair, treating students in difference groups in a less biased manner. And that is likely the opinion of many who raised the issue with the current MCPS selection.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could be an aberration we'll see for that class and the current 5th graders. Remember the 4th graders this year are the first full class to go through universal screening.

It could be the "right" or top candidates weren't being identified for the CESes in the past.

More likely, there just aren't enough spots in the CES or in the MS Magnet to accept all the kids. The Wait List for our CES was something like 80 kids? Probably all of those kids should have been offered an accelerated curriculum, but they were not. Such a ridiculous system where we ignore the needs of SO MANY high performing, motivated students for 2 years in ES.

What do you propose?

Coming into MCPS from outside, I guess I just don't get why there aren't enough CES classes and MS / HS Magnets for every kid who qualifies. We have buildings, we have teachers, we have a proven curriculum, clearly we have loads of qualified kids who aren't being served, so why not just shift some regular classrooms into gifted classrooms? Add more Magnet schools and distribute them geographically so that kids who are accepted don't decline because of transportation issues? Why choose the number of kids who can participate based on the number of assigned seats, rather than decide the number of seats/classrooms based on the number of qualified kids?

Sorry, but this isn't Harvard. It's public K-12 education. Doesn't MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education, ethically if not legally?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Coming into MCPS from outside, I guess I just don't get why there aren't enough CES classes and MS / HS Magnets for every kid who qualifies. We have buildings, we have teachers, we have a proven curriculum, clearly we have loads of qualified kids who aren't being served, so why not just shift some regular classrooms into gifted classrooms? Add more Magnet schools and distribute them geographically so that kids who are accepted don't decline because of transportation issues? Why choose the number of kids who can participate based on the number of assigned seats, rather than decide the number of seats/classrooms based on the number of qualified kids?

Sorry, but this isn't Harvard. It's public K-12 education. Doesn't MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education, ethically if not legally?

Do you think it's a good idea for the school system to take every smart kid out of the regular classroom and put them into separate classrooms in separate schools? I don't.

Also, does MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education? No.

[Anonymous]

Coming into MCPS from outside, I guess I just don't get why there aren't enough CES classes and MS / HS Magnets for every kid who qualifies. We have buildings, we have teachers, we have a proven curriculum, clearly we have loads of qualified kids who aren't being served, so why not just shift some regular classrooms into gifted classrooms? Add more Magnet schools and distribute them geographically so that kids who are accepted don't decline because of transportation issues? Why choose the number of kids who can participate based on the number of assigned seats, rather than decide the number of seats/classrooms based on the number of qualified kids?

Sorry, but this isn't Harvard. It's public K-12 education. Doesn't MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education, ethically if not legally?

In some ways, this is what MCPS is trying to do. They are expanding the "local centers" and adding accelerated programming at the middle school level. However, if you track DCUM you will see that folks are resisting those efforts, claiming that the curriculum is being "watered down" by the addition of additional kids/classes.

Honestly, I think MCPS can't win. If they keep the previous system, in which 1-2% of kids were able to access the CES and magnet middle school programs, they will be criticized for gatekeeping. If they expand the programs to meet the needs of more like 10% of kids, they are accused of sabotaging the magnets in the name of social justice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Coming into MCPS from outside, I guess I just don't get why there aren't enough CES classes and MS / HS Magnets for every kid who qualifies. We have buildings, we have teachers, we have a proven curriculum, clearly we have loads of qualified kids who aren't being served, so why not just shift some regular classrooms into gifted classrooms? Add more Magnet schools and distribute them geographically so that kids who are accepted don't decline because of transportation issues? Why choose the number of kids who can participate based on the number of assigned seats, rather than decide the number of seats/classrooms based on the number of qualified kids?

Sorry, but this isn't Harvard. It's public K-12 education. Doesn't MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education, ethically if not legally?

Do you think it's a good idea for the school system to take every smart kid out of the regular classroom and put them into separate classrooms in separate schools? I don't.

Also, does MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education? No.

Then give up the pull-out system entirely and go to an inclusive model where appropriate differentiation is provided in-classroom and all the kids are mixed. That would also be fair.

Free and appropriate education should be the expectation for kids across the bell curve. It's only a federal mandate for kids with diagnosed special needs, but there are states that require it for everyone. Shouldn't the goal of public education be to help each child reach their potential?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Coming into MCPS from outside, I guess I just don't get why there aren't enough CES classes and MS / HS Magnets for every kid who qualifies. We have buildings, we have teachers, we have a proven curriculum, clearly we have loads of qualified kids who aren't being served, so why not just shift some regular classrooms into gifted classrooms? Add more Magnet schools and distribute them geographically so that kids who are accepted don't decline because of transportation issues? Why choose the number of kids who can participate based on the number of assigned seats, rather than decide the number of seats/classrooms based on the number of qualified kids?

Sorry, but this isn't Harvard. It's public K-12 education. Doesn't MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education, ethically if not legally?

Do you think it's a good idea for the school system to take every smart kid out of the regular classroom and put them into separate classrooms in separate schools? I don't.

Also, does MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education? No.

Then give up the pull-out system entirely and go to an inclusive model where appropriate differentiation is provided in-classroom and all the kids are mixed. That would also be fair.

Free and appropriate education should be the expectation for kids across the bell curve. It's only a federal mandate for kids with diagnosed special needs, but there are states that require it for everyone. Shouldn't the goal of public education be to help each child reach their potential?

This is the "If I can't have you, nobody can have you" model.

It would be great if every kid received a free and appropriate education. Does MCPS owe this? No.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

In some ways, this is what MCPS is trying to do. They are expanding the "local centers" and adding accelerated programming at the middle school level. However, if you track DCUM you will see that folks are resisting those efforts, claiming that the curriculum is being "watered down" by the addition of additional kids/classes.

Honestly, I think MCPS can't win. If they keep the previous system, in which 1-2% of kids were able to access the CES and magnet middle school programs, they will be criticized for gatekeeping. If they expand the programs to meet the needs of more like 10% of kids, they are accused of sabotaging the magnets in the name of social justice.

Yup. The appropriate percentage is: the percentage necessary for MY kid to get in. (Plus maybe a few more, so that my kid won't be the dumbest.) Any more, and the program is watered-down, and also social engineering* (because my kid is from an affluent, white family). Any fewer, and it's unjust gate-keeping.

*social engineering is bad

/s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Coming into MCPS from outside, I guess I just don't get why there aren't enough CES classes and MS / HS Magnets for every kid who qualifies. We have buildings, we have teachers, we have a proven curriculum, clearly we have loads of qualified kids who aren't being served, so why not just shift some regular classrooms into gifted classrooms? Add more Magnet schools and distribute them geographically so that kids who are accepted don't decline because of transportation issues? Why choose the number of kids who can participate based on the number of assigned seats, rather than decide the number of seats/classrooms based on the number of qualified kids?

Sorry, but this isn't Harvard. It's public K-12 education. Doesn't MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education, ethically if not legally?

In some ways, this is what MCPS is trying to do. They are expanding the "local centers" and adding accelerated programming at the middle school level. However, if you track DCUM you will see that folks are resisting those efforts, claiming that the curriculum is being "watered down" by the addition of additional kids/classes.

Honestly, I think MCPS can't win. If they keep the previous system, in which 1-2% of kids were able to access the CES and magnet middle school programs, they will be criticized for gatekeeping. If they expand the programs to meet the needs of more like 10% of kids, they are accused of sabotaging the magnets in the name of social justice.

It seems like the problem is deciding a priori that 2% or 10% is the correct number of seats to set aside. The general consensus, from the district, the schools, and the parents, seems to be that there just aren't enough seats to admit all qualified students. This is true even before hashing out the definition of "qualified," which is always going to be a sticking point, especially for kids on the border. Also, the "accelerated programs" at the middle schools are not remotely comparable to the programs at the magnets, so I can see how it's a pretty weak argument to claim that they are a substitute for a student who might have previously qualified for a magnet.

Again, my kids haven't been through the process because we came in from outside, but this is how it looks to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Coming into MCPS from outside, I guess I just don't get why there aren't enough CES classes and MS / HS Magnets for every kid who qualifies. We have buildings, we have teachers, we have a proven curriculum, clearly we have loads of qualified kids who aren't being served, so why not just shift some regular classrooms into gifted classrooms? Add more Magnet schools and distribute them geographically so that kids who are accepted don't decline because of transportation issues? Why choose the number of kids who can participate based on the number of assigned seats, rather than decide the number of seats/classrooms based on the number of qualified kids?

Sorry, but this isn't Harvard. It's public K-12 education. Doesn't MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education, ethically if not legally?

In some ways, this is what MCPS is trying to do. They are expanding the "local centers" and adding accelerated programming at the middle school level. However, if you track DCUM you will see that folks are resisting those efforts, claiming that the curriculum is being "watered down" by the addition of additional kids/classes.

Honestly, I think MCPS can't win. If they keep the previous system, in which 1-2% of kids were able to access the CES and magnet middle school programs, they will be criticized for gatekeeping. If they expand the programs to meet the needs of more like 10% of kids, they are accused of sabotaging the magnets in the name of social justice.

It seems like the problem is deciding a priori that 2% or 10% is the correct number of seats to set aside. The general consensus, from the district, the schools, and the parents, seems to be that there just aren't enough seats to admit all qualified students. This is true even before hashing out the definition of "qualified," which is always going to be a sticking point, especially for kids on the border. Also, the "accelerated programs" at the middle schools are not remotely comparable to the programs at the magnets, so I can see how it's a pretty weak argument to claim that they are a substitute for a student who might have previously qualified for a magnet.

Again, my kids haven't been through the process because we came in from outside, but this is how it looks to me.

For someone who claims to have no skin in the game, you seem pretty sure that the accelerated middle school classes are "not remotely comparable" to the middle school magnets. This is the first year that those classes have even existed - maybe we can slow our roll for a half second before declaring them an unmitigated failure?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Coming into MCPS from outside, I guess I just don't get why there aren't enough CES classes and MS / HS Magnets for every kid who qualifies. We have buildings, we have teachers, we have a proven curriculum, clearly we have loads of qualified kids who aren't being served, so why not just shift some regular classrooms into gifted classrooms? Add more Magnet schools and distribute them geographically so that kids who are accepted don't decline because of transportation issues? Why choose the number of kids who can participate based on the number of assigned seats, rather than decide the number of seats/classrooms based on the number of qualified kids?

Sorry, but this isn't Harvard. It's public K-12 education. Doesn't MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education, ethically if not legally?

Do you think it's a good idea for the school system to take every smart kid out of the regular classroom and put them into separate classrooms in separate schools? I don't.

Also, does MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education? No.

Actually, they do, according to the MD State Board of Education: http://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Gifted-Talented/COMAR_13A0407_GT_Education.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Coming into MCPS from outside, I guess I just don't get why there aren't enough CES classes and MS / HS Magnets for every kid who qualifies. We have buildings, we have teachers, we have a proven curriculum, clearly we have loads of qualified kids who aren't being served, so why not just shift some regular classrooms into gifted classrooms? Add more Magnet schools and distribute them geographically so that kids who are accepted don't decline because of transportation issues? Why choose the number of kids who can participate based on the number of assigned seats, rather than decide the number of seats/classrooms based on the number of qualified kids?

Sorry, but this isn't Harvard. It's public K-12 education. Doesn't MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education, ethically if not legally?

Do you think it's a good idea for the school system to take every smart kid out of the regular classroom and put them into separate classrooms in separate schools? I don't.

Also, does MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education? No.

Actually, they do, according to the MD State Board of Education: http://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Gifted-Talented/COMAR_13A0407_GT_Education.pdf

PP here - I hit submit too soon. And in fact, the regulations I just posted are from 2012. New, stronger regulations for GT education are set to be considered by the MDBoE today:

http://www.dsd.state.md.us/MDR/4526/Assembled.htm#_Toc532899012

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Coming into MCPS from outside, I guess I just don't get why there aren't enough CES classes and MS / HS Magnets for every kid who qualifies. We have buildings, we have teachers, we have a proven curriculum, clearly we have loads of qualified kids who aren't being served, so why not just shift some regular classrooms into gifted classrooms? Add more Magnet schools and distribute them geographically so that kids who are accepted don't decline because of transportation issues? Why choose the number of kids who can participate based on the number of assigned seats, rather than decide the number of seats/classrooms based on the number of qualified kids?

Sorry, but this isn't Harvard. It's public K-12 education. Doesn't MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education, ethically if not legally?

Do you think it's a good idea for the school system to take every smart kid out of the regular classroom and put them into separate classrooms in separate schools? I don't.

Also, does MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education? No.

Actually, they do, according to the MD State Board of Education: http://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Gifted-Talented/COMAR_13A0407_GT_Education.pdf

I don't see that anywhere in your link. Could you point me to where it says that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Coming into MCPS from outside, I guess I just don't get why there aren't enough CES classes and MS / HS Magnets for every kid who qualifies. We have buildings, we have teachers, we have a proven curriculum, clearly we have loads of qualified kids who aren't being served, so why not just shift some regular classrooms into gifted classrooms? Add more Magnet schools and distribute them geographically so that kids who are accepted don't decline because of transportation issues? Why choose the number of kids who can participate based on the number of assigned seats, rather than decide the number of seats/classrooms based on the number of qualified kids?

Sorry, but this isn't Harvard. It's public K-12 education. Doesn't MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education, ethically if not legally?

Do you think it's a good idea for the school system to take every smart kid out of the regular classroom and put them into separate classrooms in separate schools? I don't.

Also, does MCPS owe every gifted student a free and appropriate education? No.

Actually, they do, according to the MD State Board of Education: http://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Gifted-Talented/COMAR_13A0407_GT_Education.pdf

I don't see that anywhere in your link. Could you point me to where it says that?

"03 Programs and ServicesA.Each school system shall provide different services beyond those normally provided by the regular school program in order to develop the gifted and talented student’s potential. Appropriately differentiated programs and services shall accelerate, extend, or enrich instructional content, strategies, and products to demonstrate and apply learning."

[Anonymous]

No, that doesn't say that MCPS must provide a free and appropriate education. Just that MCPS must provide different, additional services. Which MCPS does.