Is Cold Spring HGC the only HGC targeted by MCPS for denying entrance to MS magnet programs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
DP.. I think it's just looking at the numbers.

1. URM statistically score lower than Asian/white counterparts
2. there is a much lower acceptance rate among the students in the higher Asian/white concentrated areas compared to years past
3. MCPS changed the way they look at students when determining acceptance
4. MCPS no longer provides the median test scores of accepted students (this is the case in CES, to my knowlege, not sure about MS magnet)

All of this makes it seems suspicious, and so parents would like more transparency in how MCPS is determining who gets accepted. Again, no one is saying that there aren't smart URM students in MCPS, but the stats show how the test scores lay out among the groups.

If one claims that test scores shouldn't be the only thing used for magnet acceptance, then it goes back to the "holistic" approach argument, which usually means affirmative action of some sort.

They don't admit average scores. They admit individual kids.

Also, MCPS has said that it's not only test scores. Haven't you read their FAQs? It also wasn't only test scores under the previous admissions process. And it shouldn't be only test scores.

Here's your argument, boiled down: "My kid had high test scores. My kid didn't get in. This shows that MCPS is admitting undeserving black and brown kids with lower test scores." Yuck.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Excellent! That means that your DC deserves to be there. Good for her,

The issue is whether MCPS is accepting kids who are less qualified simply due to their race.

If they release the data and that is not the case, it will be fantastic news.

No. There, I answered your question.

Oh please. Everyone saw the writing on the wall when they changed this. Of course it is. That was their whole point in doing it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Excellent! That means that your DC deserves to be there. Good for her,

The issue is whether MCPS is accepting kids who are less qualified simply due to their race.

If they release the data and that is not the case, it will be fantastic news.

No. There, I answered your question.

Oh please. Everyone saw the writing on the wall when they changed this. Of course it is. That was their whole point in doing it.

-MCPS is accepting unqualified kids based on race!
-Oh, how do you know?
-Everybody knows that! It's obvious!

That's not really a high-quality argument, there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How are black and Latino kids being denied access?

Read the darn Metis report. (Your taxes paid for it, the least you can do is try to get your money's worth out of it.) You can do a search on "barriers to access", if you don't want to read the whole thing.

Here's a great example of the type of reasoning contained in the Metis report:

"Data on applications and acceptances to elementary centers and secondary magnet and application programs show that Hispanic/Latino, Black/African American, Limited English Proficient (LEP), special education, and low-income students are less likely than White, Asian, and higher income students to be selected and enroll in these programs[u]. [u]As a result, Hispanic/Latino, Black/African American, LEP, special education, and low-income students are underrepresented in academically selective programs when compared with districtwide enrollment data."

Seriously, just apply some simple logical reasoning to the quoted text. They argue in the first sentence that data on applications and acceptances shows that certain groups are less likely to be selected and enroll. As a result, these groups are underrepresented.

So the reason for the underrepresentation of these groups in the program is that... wait for it... data shows these groups are selected and enroll less. Circular reasoning at its best.

Not really. Here are some possible reasons for underrepresentation by Group X: they apply less, they're selected less, they enroll less. Metis is saying here that it's all three. But it wouldn't have to be all three. And different reasons require different solutions.

Some apply less because they are not aware.
Some don't apply b/c they've been told others who look like them never get admitted.
Some apply and get invited, but turn down the invitation when they go to the open house and see almost no-one staff or students who looks like them.

One result-- underrepresentation, different causes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
DP.. I think it's just looking at the numbers.

1. URM statistically score lower than Asian/white counterparts
2. there is a much lower acceptance rate among the students in the higher Asian/white concentrated areas compared to years past
3. MCPS changed the way they look at students when determining acceptance
4. MCPS no longer provides the median test scores of accepted students (this is the case in CES, to my knowlege, not sure about MS magnet)

All of this makes it seems suspicious, and so parents would like more transparency in how MCPS is determining who gets accepted. Again, no one is saying that there aren't smart URM students in MCPS, but the stats show how the test scores lay out among the groups.

If one claims that test scores shouldn't be the only thing used for magnet acceptance, then it goes back to the "holistic" approach argument, which usually means affirmative action of some sort.

They don't admit average scores. They admit individual kids.

Also, MCPS has said that it's not only test scores. Haven't you read their FAQs? It also wasn't only test scores under the previous admissions process. And it shouldn't be only test scores.

Here's your argument, boiled down: "My kid had high test scores. My kid didn't get in. This shows that MCPS is admitting undeserving black and brown kids with lower test scores." Yuck.

Are you saying that there is no way that MCPS is hiding anything? Since when MCPS becomes so credible? Nobody is saying that scores should be the only factor for consideration. The parents are just asking for transparency, nothing wrong with that and they have the right to know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How are black and Latino kids being denied access?

Read the darn Metis report. (Your taxes paid for it, the least you can do is try to get your money's worth out of it.) You can do a search on "barriers to access", if you don't want to read the whole thing.

Here's a great example of the type of reasoning contained in the Metis report:

"Data on applications and acceptances to elementary centers and secondary magnet and application programs show that Hispanic/Latino, Black/African American, Limited English Proficient (LEP), special education, and low-income students are less likely than White, Asian, and higher income students to be selected and enroll in these programs[u]. [u]As a result, Hispanic/Latino, Black/African American, LEP, special education, and low-income students are underrepresented in academically selective programs when compared with districtwide enrollment data."

Seriously, just apply some simple logical reasoning to the quoted text. They argue in the first sentence that data on applications and acceptances shows that certain groups are less likely to be selected and enroll. As a result, these groups are underrepresented.

So the reason for the underrepresentation of these groups in the program is that... wait for it... data shows these groups are selected and enroll less. Circular reasoning at its best.

Not really. Here are some possible reasons for underrepresentation by Group X: they apply less, they're selected less, they enroll less. Metis is saying here that it's all three. But it wouldn't have to be all three. And different reasons require different solutions.

Some apply less because they are not aware.
Some don't apply b/c they've been told others who look like them never get admitted.
Some apply and get invited, but turn down the invitation when they go to the open house and see almost no-one staff or students who looks like them.

One result-- underrepresentation, different causes.

It would be wonderful if the racial disparities were just because high-test scoring candidates weren't applying or were turning down the program, but that's not what the Metis report says is happening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Excellent! That means that your DC deserves to be there. Good for her,

The issue is whether MCPS is accepting kids who are less qualified simply due to their race.

If they release the data and that is not the case, it will be fantastic news.

No. There, I answered your question.

Oh please. Everyone saw the writing on the wall when they changed this. Of course it is. That was their whole point in doing it.

-MCPS is accepting unqualified kids based on race!
-Oh, how do you know?
-Everybody knows that! It's obvious!

That's not really a high-quality argument, there.

Maybe MCPS used school normal, no matter what, it should be clearly stated. The argument that "why is A is better than B?", " because MCPS said so." doesn't sound good either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Are you saying that there is no way that MCPS is hiding anything? Since when MCPS becomes so credible? Nobody is saying that scores should be the only factor for consideration. The parents are just asking for transparency, nothing wrong with that and they have the right to know.

What do parents have the right to know, and why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Are you saying that there is no way that MCPS is hiding anything? Since when MCPS becomes so credible? Nobody is saying that scores should be the only factor for consideration. The parents are just asking for transparency, nothing wrong with that and they have the right to know.

What do parents have the right to know, and why?

DP

Parents have the right to know what scored were required for a child to get accepted.

Is there a single cut-off score/percentile?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Excellent! That means that your DC deserves to be there. Good for her,

The issue is whether MCPS is accepting kids who are less qualified simply due to their race.

If they release the data and that is not the case, it will be fantastic news.

No. There, I answered your question.

That means nothing to me. Unless you actually work at MCPS and are on the selection committee. Are you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Are you saying that there is no way that MCPS is hiding anything? Since when MCPS becomes so credible? Nobody is saying that scores should be the only factor for consideration. The parents are just asking for transparency, nothing wrong with that and they have the right to know.

What do parents have the right to know, and why?

DP

Parents have the right to know what scored were required for a child to get accepted.

Is there a single cut-off score/percentile?

Are you asking if there's a single country-wide cut-off score? If so, the answer is no. The program director stated that explicitly at the information meetings. The cut-off will be different for each local school. MCPS isn't hiding that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Are you saying that there is no way that MCPS is hiding anything? Since when MCPS becomes so credible? Nobody is saying that scores should be the only factor for consideration. The parents are just asking for transparency, nothing wrong with that and they have the right to know.

What do parents have the right to know, and why?

DP

Parents have the right to know what scored were required for a child to get accepted.

Is there a single cut-off score/percentile?

Are you asking if there's a single country-wide cut-off score? If so, the answer is no. The program director stated that explicitly at the information meetings. The cut-off will be different for each local school. MCPS isn't hiding that.

Are you a MCPS representative or something? Because I do see from MCPS's perspective that it's all for the better if parents can just suck up whatever they are told.

[Anonymous]

I really hope that parents of accepted kids don't bring this attitude with them to the magnet programs. I am picturing them side-eyeing any black and hispanic 11-year-olds who they assume are unqualified.

It is absolutely the case that prior to this new admission procedure, tons of kids with uninformed parents or parents who don't speak English didn't know they were supposed to apply. Testing more kids means correcting for that problem. It doesn't mean admitting unqualified students. It means that the kids who used to be admitted were not the only qualified students out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Are you saying that there is no way that MCPS is hiding anything? Since when MCPS becomes so credible? Nobody is saying that scores should be the only factor for consideration. The parents are just asking for transparency, nothing wrong with that and they have the right to know.

What do parents have the right to know, and why?

DP

Parents have the right to know what scored were required for a child to get accepted.

Is there a single cut-off score/percentile?

Are you asking if there's a single country-wide cut-off score? If so, the answer is no. The program director stated that explicitly at the information meetings. The cut-off will be different for each local school. MCPS isn't hiding that.

So how is MCPS making it’s admission decisions?

If an URM has the same scores as a White/Asian candidate, which one gets chosen and why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Are you saying that there is no way that MCPS is hiding anything? Since when MCPS becomes so credible? Nobody is saying that scores should be the only factor for consideration. The parents are just asking for transparency, nothing wrong with that and they have the right to know.

What do parents have the right to know, and why?

DP

Parents have the right to know what scored were required for a child to get accepted.

Is there a single cut-off score/percentile?

Are you asking if there's a single country-wide cut-off score? If so, the answer is no. The program director stated that explicitly at the information meetings. The cut-off will be different for each local school. MCPS isn't hiding that.

So how is MCPS making it’s admission decisions?

If an URM has the same scores as a White/Asian candidate, which one gets chosen and why?

If they are each coming from the same local school, they'll almost certainly either both be chosen or neither will be chosen. If they're coming from different local schools, the one coming from a school without "peers" is the one that will be chosen.

Think of it this way: if Applicant A is scoring 5 points higher than the next best students at A's local school and Applicant B is scoring 1 point higher than the next best students at B's local school, they will likely pick A, regardless of whether A or B's test scores are higher than the other.

For the record, I'm not an MCPS insider. I'm just describing it based on what I heard the director say at the information meeting, and using some logical inferences to fill in the details.