How to improve AAP and General Ed Together

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they are receiving advanced services and differentiation, isn't that what matters??? How is Gen Ed a derogatory 'label'?

The point is that the quality of and exposure to advanced services and differentiation varies widely by school in the same district, e.g., some classrooms are essentially capped at so that kids willing and able to do more aren't challenged (see upthread). This the resentment and the "us v them" mentality when it comes to kids who have close IQs. If Sally and Diego's WiSC scores differ by a couple points, and the one who gets into AAP can get the impression he/she are smart while the other is not so smart. Silly, but it can and does happen. So OP wants to know how to break down this barrier.

But this is life. Better to learn the lesson now. When you and co-worker X get a review and co-worker X has a few more accolades, he/she gets the bonus, promotion, or award, whatever. It may make you feel bad. Get used to it.

It is an artificial class-divide created using government funds. Worse the inconsistent delivery of services creates an environment that discriminates with low expectations. For example:

Diego has a 139 CoGAT, while Katrina has a 141. GenEd: "Well, Diego, you're already at grade level that puts you at the top of your classmates. You can coast for the rest of the year while I catch everyone up. Maybe sometime this month the AART will pull you out to do something new." AAP: "Well, Katrina, you're already at grade level, how much higher can you go? Let's delve deeper into this subject?"

FCPS has a lot of Diegos that would qualify for gifted in many other communities, yet in one of the wealthiest counties in the nation they are "held back" at more than one school here. Telling parents to move is a non-starter. We live where we live. We should expect better from our school system, and treat each other with dignity and respect, no matter our test scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not have separate AAP programs with separate qualification criteria for math/science and language arts? This would promote more mixing between AAP and GenEd, since a lot of kids would only qualify AAP in one area and be in GenEd for the other.

This is Level III.

At many schools, Level III is a mere 1 hour/week pull out. The students certainly aren't getting anything remotely equivalent to Level IV services in their areas of strength.

This +1000. When my son was receiving Level III pullouts at his base school he was lucky to get pulled out once a month. Much of the rest of the time the AART was dealing with parents who wanted their kids in AAP, or putting together folders for AAP or some other AAP-related screening b.s. By the time my son was in 6th grade, he and his friends refused to even go to pullouts which they thought were a hassle. In other words, Level III pullouts at his school (now an AAP center, ironically) were a joke even to the AART who spent more time trying to get kids out of the school than help those advanced kids who were left.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they are receiving advanced services and differentiation, isn't that what matters??? How is Gen Ed a derogatory 'label'?

The point is that the quality of and exposure to advanced services and differentiation varies widely by school in the same district, e.g., some classrooms are essentially capped at so that kids willing and able to do more aren't challenged (see upthread). This the resentment and the "us v them" mentality when it comes to kids who have close IQs. If Sally and Diego's WiSC scores differ by a couple points, and the one who gets into AAP can get the impression he/she are smart while the other is not so smart. Silly, but it can and does happen. So OP wants to know how to break down this barrier.

But this is life. Better to learn the lesson now. When you and co-worker X get a review and co-worker X has a few more accolades, he/she gets the bonus, promotion, or award, whatever. It may make you feel bad. Get used to it.

It is an artificial class-divide created using government funds. Worse the inconsistent delivery of services creates an environment that discriminates with low expectations. For example:

Diego has a 139 CoGAT, while Katrina has a 141. GenEd: "Well, Diego, you're already at grade level that puts you at the top of your classmates. You can coast for the rest of the year while I catch everyone up. Maybe sometime this month the AART will pull you out to do something new." AAP: "Well, Katrina, you're already at grade level, how much higher can you go? Let's delve deeper into this subject?"

FCPS has a lot of Diegos that would qualify for gifted in many other communities, yet in one of the wealthiest counties in the nation they are "held back" at more than one school here. Telling parents to move is a non-starter. We live where we live. We should expect better from our school system, and treat each other with dignity and respect, no matter our test scores.

??? a 139 IQ will get you AAP services. Easily. But I like how you made the poor downtrodden kid Latino there. Nice touch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Does anyone have any comments on my recommendations?

Any suggestions on how to provide enrichment at non-center schools without a level IV program?

Implement Level IV curriculum in every single class. Centers can move at a faster pace, regular classes at a regular pace. SAME curriculum (it's not just for gifted kids), SAME teacher training.

Raise up all of FCPS, not just a small percentage.

OP here. I don't think that will work. Many kids cannot handle advanced math or language arts. Many kids in FCPS are below grade. This would do them a disservice by teaching above their level and not addressing their needs.

I do agree all teachers should be trained in some level of gifted teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they are receiving advanced services and differentiation, isn't that what matters??? How is Gen Ed a derogatory 'label'?

The point is that the quality of and exposure to advanced services and differentiation varies widely by school in the same district, e.g., some classrooms are essentially capped at so that kids willing and able to do more aren't challenged (see upthread). This the resentment and the "us v them" mentality when it comes to kids who have close IQs. If Sally and Diego's WiSC scores differ by a couple points, and the one who gets into AAP can get the impression he/she are smart while the other is not so smart. Silly, but it can and does happen. So OP wants to know how to break down this barrier.

But this is life. Better to learn the lesson now. When you and co-worker X get a review and co-worker X has a few more accolades, he/she gets the bonus, promotion, or award, whatever. It may make you feel bad. Get used to it.

It is an artificial class-divide created using government funds. Worse the inconsistent delivery of services creates an environment that discriminates with low expectations. For example:

Diego has a 139 CoGAT, while Katrina has a 141. GenEd: "Well, Diego, you're already at grade level that puts you at the top of your classmates. You can coast for the rest of the year while I catch everyone up. Maybe sometime this month the AART will pull you out to do something new." AAP: "Well, Katrina, you're already at grade level, how much higher can you go? Let's delve deeper into this subject?"

FCPS has a lot of Diegos that would qualify for gifted in many other communities, yet in one of the wealthiest counties in the nation they are "held back" at more than one school here. Telling parents to move is a non-starter. We live where we live. We should expect better from our school system, and treat each other with dignity and respect, no matter our test scores.

A 139 Cogat would end up as level IV.

Bad example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Does anyone have any comments on my recommendations?

Any suggestions on how to provide enrichment at non-center schools without a level IV program?

Implement Level IV curriculum in every single class. Centers can move at a faster pace, regular classes at a regular pace. SAME curriculum (it's not just for gifted kids), SAME teacher training.

Raise up all of FCPS, not just a small percentage.

OP here. I don't think that will work. Many kids cannot handle advanced math or language arts. Many kids in FCPS are below grade. This would do them a disservice by teaching above their level and not addressing their needs.

I do agree all teachers should be trained in some level of gifted teaching.

The only thing 'advanced' is that the concepts are taught more quickly so there is less review. The curriculum itself is NOT advanced and would NOT be teaching ''above their level". Which is why I stated that the "Advanced" kids can advance through the text at a quicker pace and the "regular" kids can be taught at at regular pace.

Kids that are below grade level are a much smaller percentage and can still be team taught with the special ed. teacher.

There is ALREADY a disservice to the GenEd students going on and it's coming from people like you who wrongly think a stronger and better curriculum is "above their level" and think it should be reserved strictly for Level IV students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not have separate AAP programs with separate qualification criteria for math/science and language arts? This would promote more mixing between AAP and GenEd, since a lot of kids would only qualify AAP in one area and be in GenEd for the other.

This is Level III.

At many schools, Level III is a mere 1 hour/week pull out. The students certainly aren't getting anything remotely equivalent to Level IV services in their areas of strength.

This +1000. When my son was receiving Level III pullouts at his base school he was lucky to get pulled out once a month. Much of the rest of the time the AART was dealing with parents who wanted their kids in AAP, or putting together folders for AAP or some other AAP-related screening b.s. By the time my son was in 6th grade, he and his friends refused to even go to pullouts which they thought were a hassle. In other words, Level III pullouts at his school (now an AAP center, ironically) were a joke even to the AART who spent more time trying to get kids out of the school than help those advanced kids who were left.

Thus the earlier recommendations to strengthen and ensure standardization of delivery of Level III services.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they are receiving advanced services and differentiation, isn't that what matters??? How is Gen Ed a derogatory 'label'?

The point is that the quality of and exposure to advanced services and differentiation varies widely by school in the same district, e.g., some classrooms are essentially capped at so that kids willing and able to do more aren't challenged (see upthread). This the resentment and the "us v them" mentality when it comes to kids who have close IQs. If Sally and Diego's WiSC scores differ by a couple points, and the one who gets into AAP can get the impression he/she are smart while the other is not so smart. Silly, but it can and does happen. So OP wants to know how to break down this barrier.

But this is life. Better to learn the lesson now. When you and co-worker X get a review and co-worker X has a few more accolades, he/she gets the bonus, promotion, or award, whatever. It may make you feel bad. Get used to it.

It is an artificial class-divide created using government funds. Worse the inconsistent delivery of services creates an environment that discriminates with low expectations. For example:

Diego has a 139 CoGAT, while Katrina has a 141. GenEd: "Well, Diego, you're already at grade level that puts you at the top of your classmates. You can coast for the rest of the year while I catch everyone up. Maybe sometime this month the AART will pull you out to do something new." AAP: "Well, Katrina, you're already at grade level, how much higher can you go? Let's delve deeper into this subject?"

FCPS has a lot of Diegos that would qualify for gifted in many other communities, yet in one of the wealthiest counties in the nation they are "held back" at more than one school here. Telling parents to move is a non-starter. We live where we live. We should expect better from our school system, and treat each other with dignity and respect, no matter our test scores.

??? a 139 IQ will get you AAP services. Easily. But I like how you made the poor downtrodden kid Latino there. Nice touch.

Well, Katrina is African American, so ...?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they are receiving advanced services and differentiation, isn't that what matters??? How is Gen Ed a derogatory 'label'?

The point is that the quality of and exposure to advanced services and differentiation varies widely by school in the same district, e.g., some classrooms are essentially capped at so that kids willing and able to do more aren't challenged (see upthread). This the resentment and the "us v them" mentality when it comes to kids who have close IQs. If Sally and Diego's WiSC scores differ by a couple points, and the one who gets into AAP can get the impression he/she are smart while the other is not so smart. Silly, but it can and does happen. So OP wants to know how to break down this barrier.

But this is life. Better to learn the lesson now. When you and co-worker X get a review and co-worker X has a few more accolades, he/she gets the bonus, promotion, or award, whatever. It may make you feel bad. Get used to it.

It is an artificial class-divide created using government funds. Worse the inconsistent delivery of services creates an environment that discriminates with low expectations. For example:

Diego has a 139 CoGAT, while Katrina has a 141. GenEd: "Well, Diego, you're already at grade level that puts you at the top of your classmates. You can coast for the rest of the year while I catch everyone up. Maybe sometime this month the AART will pull you out to do something new." AAP: "Well, Katrina, you're already at grade level, how much higher can you go? Let's delve deeper into this subject?"

FCPS has a lot of Diegos that would qualify for gifted in many other communities, yet in one of the wealthiest counties in the nation they are "held back" at more than one school here. Telling parents to move is a non-starter. We live where we live. We should expect better from our school system, and treat each other with dignity and respect, no matter our test scores.

A 139 Cogat would end up as level IV.

Bad example.

Fine. Let's make Larlo the down-trodden (to be socially acceptable here) with 1 point below cut-off and Larla 1 point above.

[Anonymous]

OP, you've collected some good ideas. I think the place to start is with leveling the services across FCPS, and dealing with the soft bigotry accompanying children's test score profiles. Each kid is unique and has different needs. But before any of this can be accomplished, you need a champion to sponsor change, or champions at each school bonding together over this, and you need people to walk across each side of the AAP aisle. AAP is not panacea, and non-AAP kids deserve to be challenged appropriately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, you've collected some good ideas. I think the place to start is with leveling the services across FCPS, and dealing with the soft bigotry accompanying children's test score profiles. Each kid is unique and has different needs. But before any of this can be accomplished, you need a champion to sponsor change, or champions at each school bonding together over this, and you need people to walk across each side of the AAP aisle. AAP is not panacea, and non-AAP kids deserve to be challenged appropriately.

OP here. What do you mean by leveling the services? I don't want each classroom to be the same. I do want to make sure each school is welcoming to all students and each school has something to draw people to it. So in that regard I want to level the schools a bit better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, young families move into those huge AAP center zones because oftye higher test scores of the center. Most parents of younger kids believe their kid is of course one of the smartest of their age group and/or gifted, so Of Course they need to get a house in the best ranked centers, no matter the cost.

This is why a "shit shack" (to use a dcum catch phrase) in McLean or Vienna costs $200K more than the same house in an excellent school zone like Lake Braddock or West Springfield. AAP and the higher test scores make buying in one of those TJ mania areas much more desireable than buying in a great school zone like Sangster that might implement AAP much more successfully with regards to balancing gen ed needs and AAP.

Actually I know people who won't buy in the AAP center school boundaries, even in Mclean, Vienna, and Great Falls. Others who won't buy in a school that doesn't at least have LLIV. Somehow these schools need to be better equalized.

Yep. We bought in one of these areas because they're known for good schools, not due to AAP (we already knew our kids would not be in AAP). Little did we know how crazy the focus on all things AAP would be. Regretting our move and looking for an area with normal neighborhood schools that do NOT focus on AAP. Does that exist in FCPS or will we have to move out of the county? We'd like a place where ALL kids feel special.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Does anyone have any comments on my recommendations?

Any suggestions on how to provide enrichment at non-center schools without a level IV program?

Implement Level IV curriculum in every single class. Centers can move at a faster pace, regular classes at a regular pace. SAME curriculum (it's not just for gifted kids), SAME teacher training.

Raise up all of FCPS, not just a small percentage.

OP here. I don't think that will work. Many kids cannot handle advanced math or language arts. Many kids in FCPS are below grade. This would do them a disservice by teaching above their level and not addressing their needs.

I do agree all teachers should be trained in some level of gifted teaching.

The only thing 'advanced' is that the concepts are taught more quickly so there is less review. The curriculum itself is NOT advanced and would NOT be teaching ''above their level". Which is why I stated that the "Advanced" kids can advance through the text at a quicker pace and the "regular" kids can be taught at at regular pace.

Kids that are below grade level are a much smaller percentage and can still be team taught with the special ed. teacher.

There is ALREADY a disservice to the GenEd students going on and it's coming from people like you who wrongly think a stronger and better curriculum is "above their level" and think it should be reserved strictly for Level IV students.

OP here. I disagree. I would like it to be ok for all students to be below, on grade, or above grade level. Sometimes I feel that AAP parents think kids on grade level are not smart and this is absurd. I don't see anything wrong with kids being on grade level. Should they all be taught by great teachers and from a great curriculum? Sure. Should the all be challenged? Sure. My goal isn't to stress kids out though by challenging them way above their comfort level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Does anyone have any comments on my recommendations?

Any suggestions on how to provide enrichment at non-center schools without a level IV program?

Implement Level IV curriculum in every single class. Centers can move at a faster pace, regular classes at a regular pace. SAME curriculum (it's not just for gifted kids), SAME teacher training.

Raise up all of FCPS, not just a small percentage.

+100
It's just common sense. Though doing so would eliminate the perceived cache of AAP, so we already know current AAP parents would be dead set against any change to the status quo.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If they are receiving advanced services and differentiation, isn't that what matters??? How is Gen Ed a derogatory 'label'?

The point is that the quality of and exposure to advanced services and differentiation varies widely by school in the same district, e.g., some classrooms are essentially capped at so that kids willing and able to do more aren't challenged (see upthread). This the resentment and the "us v them" mentality when it comes to kids who have close IQs. If Sally and Diego's WiSC scores differ by a couple points, and the one who gets into AAP can get the impression he/she are smart while the other is not so smart. Silly, but it can and does happen. So OP wants to know how to break down this barrier.

But this is life. Better to learn the lesson now. When you and co-worker X get a review and co-worker X has a few more accolades, he/she gets the bonus, promotion, or award, whatever. It may make you feel bad. Get used to it.

It is an artificial class-divide created using government funds. Worse the inconsistent delivery of services creates an environment that discriminates with low expectations. For example:

Diego has a 139 CoGAT, while Katrina has a 141. GenEd: "Well, Diego, you're already at grade level that puts you at the top of your classmates. You can coast for the rest of the year while I catch everyone up. Maybe sometime this month the AART will pull you out to do something new." AAP: "Well, Katrina, you're already at grade level, how much higher can you go? Let's delve deeper into this subject?"

FCPS has a lot of Diegos that would qualify for gifted in many other communities, yet in one of the wealthiest counties in the nation they are "held back" at more than one school here. Telling parents to move is a non-starter. We live where we live. We should expect better from our school system, and treat each other with dignity and respect, no matter our test scores.

Excellent post and scenario, though it would be more relatable if Diego had a 129. Then he'd be right on the cusp, and I could definitely picture the teacher saying just that to him.

You're absolutely right, we should expect more of our publicly funded school system.