Random Michelle Duggar question

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kudos to them. Lots of happy, healthy families that live by different ways. The Duggars are self-sufficient and likely not as oppressed as posters want to believe they are. Many here can't seem to conceptualize that others may be happy to live differently than they do. Do I want their life - nope! Having grown up in a large family with parents with faith and traditional roles, and knowing what a great life I have had I am not going to assume they can't be having the same.

Many young adults around the world don't move out at 18, that isn't necessarily a sign of anything. It is likely cultural.

Sure, the family as it is structured now is self-sufficient, and seemingly happy, but the parents are not equipping their children with the necessary life skills to be similarly self-sufficient. The children have no means or skills to make life choices for themselves. No education beyond age 16, no pursuit of outside interests, total dedication to parents and siblings (read - free caregiving for parents). So what happens when these kids, especially the girls, come of age and want to move out? Or make some life choices for themselves? They can't as they have been completely crippled by their parent's choice to raise them in an insular world where they don't have access to education, life skills, or life choices. To me it borders on child abuse. The parent's made their choice, but they are not giving their children the same opportunity. And no, marrying at 20, immediately starting to have children (probably many children) and working in your father's used car lot doesn't constitute making a choice. It's merely doing what is expected to keep the family structure intact. Had the eldest boy gone to college, traveled, gained some life experiences outside of his family, then returned to that lifestyle, that would be a different story. These poor kids don't have a chance.

It seems as though the parents don't trust their children to make good choices, or maintain the values they were raised with. If they were truly confident in their own beliefs and convictions, they would give their children the tools to experience the outside world and allow them to make mistakes, while trusting that they will make good choices for themselves. And god forbid one of the the kids is gay.

I agree none of these kids is equipped to go study astronomy at MIT, or even history at Bard. You mention college, but not every family is focused on college, especially outside the DMV bubble. Do you judge every family that doesn't send their kids to college? A college degree isn't required for the many well-paying trades where you do an apprenticeship instead. The guys that paint our house haven't been to college, and the owner of the housepainting business seems to be doing really well.

These kids are equipped to do other things. For example one of them absolutely could, if he wanted, leave the family nest and go sell cars in upstate New York. One of them could become a plumber's or mason's apprentice. You ask what happens when the girls come of age, but you don't know the answer to that, either. Maybe they'll move to Canada and wait tables. It's not inconceivable.

[Anonymous]

I get that college isn't for everyone. But with 19 kids, surely one or two would be interested in college. And the girls waitressing in Canada? Really? I've waited tables, and yes, it was a great life experience, but hardly a long-term career choice unless you are going to climb the ladder to a high-end establishment. That serves alcohol. It also requires a certain amount of sophistication and experience in fine dining and cuisine. Yes they could learn, but going from tater tot casseroles to a red-wine reductions?

And even a basic trade (besides the stuff that their dad teaches them) requires some sort of training. Auto repair requires an understanding of computers and engineering, etc. So unless you are talking about a minimum wage gig like flipping burgers or pumping gas, they aren't educated or experienced to compete in today's job market. And how would you support yourself on minimum wage? Good luck with that. And apprenticeships are a viable option, but as in internships, in requires some sort of income to live on while you are training. Not to mention that the economy hasn't quite recovered, so the construction industry is probably glutted with willing workers or would-be apprenticeships. It's pretty tough to make a living wage in this country without some sort of higher education, whether it be college or trade school. And while they all have their GEDs, it's a competitive world out there, and just getting into college would be tough. (then there's the whole bible-based education thing - you know - the rejection of science and all - but that's another topic).

I'm just advocating (and yes, judging!) that every young person deserves the right to make their own choices in life, and the Duggars have robbed their 19 children of that right in the name of the belief system that THEY chose, and chose to impose on their children. Yes, if one or more of the kids were very determined, they could leave. But that is fairly unrealistic, given the cultish nature of the family:

"Cults are designed to keep a clear separation between those inside and outside. The more faithful a follower, the more reliant the person is on the group. It becomes everything--family, friends, church, home, work, dwelling, community. Extracting oneself from that after decades is difficult, and sometimes impossible. It is both terrifying and isolating."
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/04/generation_cult.html

Again, child abuse.

[Anonymous]

They have more money than you will ever have so #youlose.

But the kids need college....

#youlose, they can buy a small college, but they don't believe in debt. #winning

But the kids career....

#youlose they can buy their kids a career or inspire them to create their own paths #theywin #youlose

Meanwhile your kids will be working for people like their kids.
#youlose

[Anonymous]

I truly don't get why everyone is against them. I would rather have any of those 19 kids as my neighbor or as the friend of one of my kid any day over the kids that come out of Landon, Sidwell, Holton etc.

Do you hate them because they believe in God? for this crowd, probably
Is it because they have traditional roles in their family? probably.
Is it because no one here can figure out how to turn their own family into a money-making machine like they have? yeah, most likely.
Is it because none of the kid's are disrespectful to their parents or to each other? a little envy here maybe?
Is it because Michelle still looks like a freaking teenager after having 19 kids?

I don't get it guys. All of you are so tolerant of every other alternative lifestyle....which I would consider this one to be for sure but because God and religion is attached to it all bets are off. Those Duggers are some evil, scary people for sure!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I truly don't get why everyone is against them. I would rather have any of those 19 kids as my neighbor or as the friend of one of my kid any day over the kids that come out of Landon, Sidwell, Holton etc.

Do you hate them because they believe in God? for this crowd, probably
Is it because they have traditional roles in their family? probably.
Is it because no one here can figure out how to turn their own family into a money-making machine like they have? yeah, most likely.
Is it because none of the kid's are disrespectful to their parents or to each other? a little envy here maybe?
Is it because Michelle still looks like a freaking teenager after having 19 kids?

I don't get it guys. All of you are so tolerant of every other alternative lifestyle....which I would consider this one to be for sure but because God and religion is attached to it all bets are off. Those Duggers are some evil, scary people for sure!

No, I don't care how they live.

I'm not a big fan of them advocating to take away the rights of women and gays however.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I truly don't get why everyone is against them. I would rather have any of those 19 kids as my neighbor or as the friend of one of my kid any day over the kids that come out of Landon, Sidwell, Holton etc.

Do you hate them because they believe in God? for this crowd, probably
Is it because they have traditional roles in their family? probably.
Is it because no one here can figure out how to turn their own family into a money-making machine like they have? yeah, most likely.
Is it because none of the kid's are disrespectful to their parents or to each other? a little envy here maybe?
Is it because Michelle still looks like a freaking teenager after having 19 kids?

I don't get it guys. All of you are so tolerant of every other alternative lifestyle....which I would consider this one to be for sure but because God and religion is attached to it all bets are off. Those Duggers are some evil, scary people for sure!

No, I don't care how they live.

I'm not a big fan of them advocating to take away the rights of women and gays however.

How they live seems to bother you a great deal. I suggest you learn to ignore others' lifestyles. You will be a much happier person if you can.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I get that college isn't for everyone. But with 19 kids, surely one or two would be interested in college. And the girls waitressing in Canada? Really? I've waited tables, and yes, it was a great life experience, but hardly a long-term career choice unless you are going to climb the ladder to a high-end establishment. That serves alcohol. It also requires a certain amount of sophistication and experience in fine dining and cuisine. Yes they could learn, but going from tater tot casseroles to a red-wine reductions?

And even a basic trade (besides the stuff that their dad teaches them) requires some sort of training. Auto repair requires an understanding of computers and engineering, etc. So unless you are talking about a minimum wage gig like flipping burgers or pumping gas, they aren't educated or experienced to compete in today's job market. And how would you support yourself on minimum wage? Good luck with that. And apprenticeships are a viable option, but as in internships, in requires some sort of income to live on while you are training. Not to mention that the economy hasn't quite recovered, so the construction industry is probably glutted with willing workers or would-be apprenticeships. It's pretty tough to make a living wage in this country without some sort of higher education, whether it be college or trade school. And while they all have their GEDs, it's a competitive world out there, and just getting into college would be tough. (then there's the whole bible-based education thing - you know - the rejection of science and all - but that's another topic).

I'm just advocating (and yes, judging!) that every young person deserves the right to make their own choices in life, and the Duggars have robbed their 19 children of that right in the name of the belief system that THEY chose, and chose to impose on their children. Yes, if one or more of the kids were very determined, they could leave. But that is fairly unrealistic, given the cultish nature of the family:

"Cults are designed to keep a clear separation between those inside and outside. The more faithful a follower, the more reliant the person is on the group. It becomes everything--family, friends, church, home, work, dwelling, community. Extracting oneself from that after decades is difficult, and sometimes impossible. It is both terrifying and isolating."
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/04/generation_cult.html

Again, child abuse.

And you haven't done the same? You haven't imposed a belief system that your kids will go to college? Do your kids really have freedom and the right to make any choice in life they want and you support that? You are perfectly fine with them wanting to wait tables and fix cars rather than going to college? There are many people who wait tables for a living and who work in car lots for many reasons. You may see all people who aren't college educated as oppressed losers but for many people that is where life took them for many reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get that college isn't for everyone. But with 19 kids, surely one or two would be interested in college. And the girls waitressing in Canada? Really? I've waited tables, and yes, it was a great life experience, but hardly a long-term career choice unless you are going to climb the ladder to a high-end establishment. That serves alcohol. It also requires a certain amount of sophistication and experience in fine dining and cuisine. Yes they could learn, but going from tater tot casseroles to a red-wine reductions?

And even a basic trade (besides the stuff that their dad teaches them) requires some sort of training. Auto repair requires an understanding of computers and engineering, etc. So unless you are talking about a minimum wage gig like flipping burgers or pumping gas, they aren't educated or experienced to compete in today's job market. And how would you support yourself on minimum wage? Good luck with that. And apprenticeships are a viable option, but as in internships, in requires some sort of income to live on while you are training. Not to mention that the economy hasn't quite recovered, so the construction industry is probably glutted with willing workers or would-be apprenticeships. It's pretty tough to make a living wage in this country without some sort of higher education, whether it be college or trade school. And while they all have their GEDs, it's a competitive world out there, and just getting into college would be tough. (then there's the whole bible-based education thing - you know - the rejection of science and all - but that's another topic).

I'm just advocating (and yes, judging!) that every young person deserves the right to make their own choices in life, and the Duggars have robbed their 19 children of that right in the name of the belief system that THEY chose, and chose to impose on their children. Yes, if one or more of the kids were very determined, they could leave. But that is fairly unrealistic, given the cultish nature of the family:

"Cults are designed to keep a clear separation between those inside and outside. The more faithful a follower, the more reliant the person is on the group. It becomes everything--family, friends, church, home, work, dwelling, community. Extracting oneself from that after decades is difficult, and sometimes impossible. It is both terrifying and isolating."
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/04/generation_cult.html

Again, child abuse.

And you haven't done the same? You haven't imposed a belief system that your kids will go to college? Do your kids really have freedom and the right to make any choice in life they want and you support that? You are perfectly fine with them wanting to wait tables and fix cars rather than going to college? There are many people who wait tables for a living and who work in car lots for many reasons. You may see all people who aren't college educated as oppressed losers but for many people that is where life took them for many reasons.

Good answer, 2nd PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get that college isn't for everyone. But with 19 kids, surely one or two would be interested in college. And the girls waitressing in Canada? Really? I've waited tables, and yes, it was a great life experience, but hardly a long-term career choice unless you are going to climb the ladder to a high-end establishment. That serves alcohol. It also requires a certain amount of sophistication and experience in fine dining and cuisine. Yes they could learn, but going from tater tot casseroles to a red-wine reductions?

And even a basic trade (besides the stuff that their dad teaches them) requires some sort of training. Auto repair requires an understanding of computers and engineering, etc. So unless you are talking about a minimum wage gig like flipping burgers or pumping gas, they aren't educated or experienced to compete in today's job market. And how would you support yourself on minimum wage? Good luck with that. And apprenticeships are a viable option, but as in internships, in requires some sort of income to live on while you are training. Not to mention that the economy hasn't quite recovered, so the construction industry is probably glutted with willing workers or would-be apprenticeships. It's pretty tough to make a living wage in this country without some sort of higher education, whether it be college or trade school. And while they all have their GEDs, it's a competitive world out there, and just getting into college would be tough. (then there's the whole bible-based education thing - you know - the rejection of science and all - but that's another topic).

I'm just advocating (and yes, judging!) that every young person deserves the right to make their own choices in life, and the Duggars have robbed their 19 children of that right in the name of the belief system that THEY chose, and chose to impose on their children. Yes, if one or more of the kids were very determined, they could leave. But that is fairly unrealistic, given the cultish nature of the family:

"Cults are designed to keep a clear separation between those inside and outside. The more faithful a follower, the more reliant the person is on the group. It becomes everything--family, friends, church, home, work, dwelling, community. Extracting oneself from that after decades is difficult, and sometimes impossible. It is both terrifying and isolating."
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/04/generation_cult.html

Again, child abuse.

And you haven't done the same? You haven't imposed a belief system that your kids will go to college? Do your kids really have freedom and the right to make any choice in life they want and you support that? You are perfectly fine with them wanting to wait tables and fix cars rather than going to college? There are many people who wait tables for a living and who work in car lots for many reasons. You may see all people who aren't college educated as oppressed losers but for many people that is where life took them for many reasons.

Good answer, 2nd PP.

No, it isn't (I'm neither of the PPs quoted). Every parent gives their children a belief system. These kids, and others like them, are given a disadvantage anywhere outside their small community. They don't understand science, or scientific principles, they can't grasp critical thinking, and they probably don't understand much of the dominant culture in which we live. That's not at all the same thing as raising your kids to be Bahai, or Muslim, or Presbyterian. Their crappy educations are constructed with the aim of further indoctrinating them and keeping them within their faith. Going to college vs. going to a trade school has nothing to do with stunting your kid. Frankly, I don't care if my kids go to college so long as they are good thinkers, kind people, and can afford to take care of themselves when they grow up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get that college isn't for everyone. But with 19 kids, surely one or two would be interested in college. And the girls waitressing in Canada? Really? I've waited tables, and yes, it was a great life experience, but hardly a long-term career choice unless you are going to climb the ladder to a high-end establishment. That serves alcohol. It also requires a certain amount of sophistication and experience in fine dining and cuisine. Yes they could learn, but going from tater tot casseroles to a red-wine reductions?

And even a basic trade (besides the stuff that their dad teaches them) requires some sort of training. Auto repair requires an understanding of computers and engineering, etc. So unless you are talking about a minimum wage gig like flipping burgers or pumping gas, they aren't educated or experienced to compete in today's job market. And how would you support yourself on minimum wage? Good luck with that. And apprenticeships are a viable option, but as in internships, in requires some sort of income to live on while you are training. Not to mention that the economy hasn't quite recovered, so the construction industry is probably glutted with willing workers or would-be apprenticeships. It's pretty tough to make a living wage in this country without some sort of higher education, whether it be college or trade school. And while they all have their GEDs, it's a competitive world out there, and just getting into college would be tough. (then there's the whole bible-based education thing - you know - the rejection of science and all - but that's another topic).

I'm just advocating (and yes, judging!) that every young person deserves the right to make their own choices in life, and the Duggars have robbed their 19 children of that right in the name of the belief system that THEY chose, and chose to impose on their children. Yes, if one or more of the kids were very determined, they could leave. But that is fairly unrealistic, given the cultish nature of the family:

"Cults are designed to keep a clear separation between those inside and outside. The more faithful a follower, the more reliant the person is on the group. It becomes everything--family, friends, church, home, work, dwelling, community. Extracting oneself from that after decades is difficult, and sometimes impossible. It is both terrifying and isolating."
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/04/generation_cult.html

Again, child abuse.

And you haven't done the same? You haven't imposed a belief system that your kids will go to college? Do your kids really have freedom and the right to make any choice in life they want and you support that? You are perfectly fine with them wanting to wait tables and fix cars rather than going to college? There are many people who wait tables for a living and who work in car lots for many reasons. You may see all people who aren't college educated as oppressed losers but for many people that is where life took them for many reasons.

Good answer, 2nd PP.

No, it isn't (I'm neither of the PPs quoted). Every parent gives their children a belief system. These kids, and others like them, are given a disadvantage anywhere outside their small community. They don't understand science, or scientific principles, they can't grasp critical thinking, and they probably don't understand much of the dominant culture in which we live. That's not at all the same thing as raising your kids to be Bahai, or Muslim, or Presbyterian. Their crappy educations are constructed with the aim of further indoctrinating them and keeping them within their faith. Going to college vs. going to a trade school has nothing to do with stunting your kid. Frankly, I don't care if my kids go to college so long as they are good thinkers, kind people, and can afford to take care of themselves when they grow up.

What makes you think they can't grasp critical thinking? Every day they have to juggle various tasks, strategize and think things through. This is very different from your objection, that they aren't allowed to criticize their church (out loud, at least, and that's another issue). "Critical thinking" and "absence of criticism" are two very different things.

As for scientific principles, how much science does it take for many of the jobs out there in the real world? Not a whole lot, really. I don't need science for my professional job This is not to say science isn't important, or that I never studied it, but I honestly don't use it in my high-paying job.

As for dominant culture. DS grew up as a foreign service kid and missed all the cartoons and music we grew up with. This was back in the 1970s before videos and DVDs and YouTube and Skype. Once a month the embassy showed a G-rated movie mostly geared to the parents. Guess what, DS now works in a high-paying profession here in Washington, and he's doing just fine.

[Anonymous]

I definitely don't think everyone has to go to college; there is plenty of value in having a skilled trade, being a SAHM etc. The difference here is that the Duggars are giving 19 kids NO choice because they are giving them no skills so they will have no options but to have lower end jobs/stay home. If you expect a child to go to college and he doesn't go/drops out because he realizes he'd rather be a mechanic, chances are he will find an apprenticeship because he has the requisite math etc. skills from high school. But if you subject kids to a religious based computerized home school education ending at age 15, chances are they do not have nearly the same skills as a typical high school grad; so even if they are ok at a used car lot/towing business for now, they will never be able to "upgrade" to a professional job or even a retail management type of job without having to go back to college -- which would be doable if they had the right skills from high school, which the Duggars don't. Their education has completely short-changed these kids out of future options. It's hard enough to live on your own on a min wage job, let alone have a dozen kids; and the Duggar kids are used to living well -- it will be a rough adjustment if the kids have to downsize their lifestyle too much for their own families. And I don't get how they are making decisions for 19 kids based on the oldest. Maybe the 5-6 oldest are happy with their lives and will open used car lots, towing businesses etc. What if kid number 17 wants to go to college a few decades from now? He probably won't be able to, having the same homeschool education of the oldest Duggar.

I agree with the PP that says that they don't seem to trust their kids to continue the lifestyle they were raised in. That's why they are so adamant that the kids don't go to school, socialize with anyone outside their lifestyle etc. I definitely know Utah Mormons who left Utah after high school, went to east coast colleges/grad schools etc. Their parents obviously felt that they raised them well enough to where they could leave Utah and be around non-LDS people, pursue various careers, but still be practicing. And every Utah LDS person that I know here is in fact married to someone who is LDS, follows the faith relatively strictly, and is raising their kids the same way; some will move back to Utah eventually and some won't, but the decade or so that they took to expand their own horizons will only help them in their careers and their child rearing. If the Duggars felt their kids believed in the religion/lifestyle they were raised, they'd be willing to give them some freedom. The fact that they don't give them freedom suggests that the parents feel they need to keep forcing the kids to believe by separating them from anything "different."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get that college isn't for everyone. But with 19 kids, surely one or two would be interested in college. And the girls waitressing in Canada? Really? I've waited tables, and yes, it was a great life experience, but hardly a long-term career choice unless you are going to climb the ladder to a high-end establishment. That serves alcohol. It also requires a certain amount of sophistication and experience in fine dining and cuisine. Yes they could learn, but going from tater tot casseroles to a red-wine reductions?

And even a basic trade (besides the stuff that their dad teaches them) requires some sort of training. Auto repair requires an understanding of computers and engineering, etc. So unless you are talking about a minimum wage gig like flipping burgers or pumping gas, they aren't educated or experienced to compete in today's job market. And how would you support yourself on minimum wage? Good luck with that. And apprenticeships are a viable option, but as in internships, in requires some sort of income to live on while you are training. Not to mention that the economy hasn't quite recovered, so the construction industry is probably glutted with willing workers or would-be apprenticeships. It's pretty tough to make a living wage in this country without some sort of higher education, whether it be college or trade school. And while they all have their GEDs, it's a competitive world out there, and just getting into college would be tough. (then there's the whole bible-based education thing - you know - the rejection of science and all - but that's another topic).

I'm just advocating (and yes, judging!) that every young person deserves the right to make their own choices in life, and the Duggars have robbed their 19 children of that right in the name of the belief system that THEY chose, and chose to impose on their children. Yes, if one or more of the kids were very determined, they could leave. But that is fairly unrealistic, given the cultish nature of the family:

"Cults are designed to keep a clear separation between those inside and outside. The more faithful a follower, the more reliant the person is on the group. It becomes everything--family, friends, church, home, work, dwelling, community. Extracting oneself from that after decades is difficult, and sometimes impossible. It is both terrifying and isolating."
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2009/04/generation_cult.html

Again, child abuse.

And you haven't done the same? You haven't imposed a belief system that your kids will go to college? Do your kids really have freedom and the right to make any choice in life they want and you support that? You are perfectly fine with them wanting to wait tables and fix cars rather than going to college? There are many people who wait tables for a living and who work in car lots for many reasons. You may see all people who aren't college educated as oppressed losers but for many people that is where life took them for many reasons.

Good answer, 2nd PP.

No, it isn't (I'm neither of the PPs quoted). Every parent gives their children a belief system. These kids, and others like them, are given a disadvantage anywhere outside their small community. They don't understand science, or scientific principles, they can't grasp critical thinking, and they probably don't understand much of the dominant culture in which we live. That's not at all the same thing as raising your kids to be Bahai, or Muslim, or Presbyterian. Their crappy educations are constructed with the aim of further indoctrinating them and keeping them within their faith. Going to college vs. going to a trade school has nothing to do with stunting your kid. Frankly, I don't care if my kids go to college so long as they are good thinkers, kind people, and can afford to take care of themselves when they grow up.

What makes you think they can't grasp critical thinking? Every day they have to juggle various tasks, strategize and think things through. This is very different from your objection, that they aren't allowed to criticize their church (out loud, at least, and that's another issue). "Critical thinking" and "absence of criticism" are two very different things.

As for scientific principles, how much science does it take for many of the jobs out there in the real world? Not a whole lot, really. I don't need science for my professional job This is not to say science isn't important, or that I never studied it, but I honestly don't use it in my high-paying job.

As for dominant culture. DS grew up as a foreign service kid and missed all the cartoons and music we grew up with. This was back in the 1970s before videos and DVDs and YouTube and Skype. Once a month the embassy showed a G-rated movie mostly geared to the parents. Guess what, DS now works in a high-paying profession here in Washington, and he's doing just fine.[/quote]

Absolutely no comparison between a foreign service kid and the Duggar isolation. Sure, your DH may have missed out on the dominant American culture of the times - Jetsons/Wonder Years/whatever - by seeing one American movie a month, but chances are in that in lieu of that he picked up some of the dominant culture of the places he lived - through TV in those places and probably from friends/classmates he interacted with. The Duggars are picking up no culture from anyone besides their parents -- so they only know/see what their parents want them to. They don't go to school, they don't seem to have neighborhood friends or any community participation through sports teams etc. Instead their parents take pride in the fact that they only hang out with each other (and maybe a few other huge families of the same religion/culture - though I don't get the sense that those families live nearby) and are each others' only friends. You can tell how little exposure they get to "new" people by seeing how the older girls have taken to the oldest son's wife and their cousin Amy; those girls are of the same lifestyle but presumably brought something "new" -- new conversation, new inside jokes, a new person to go do things with even if it's the same old things -- just little things that all kids (and adults) need to feel like they aren't languishing in the same routine. Think about it, don't most adults enjoy chatting it up with a new person once in a while -- doesn't matter who, could be a colleague who is in town on a business trip who is telling you that he's house hunting in NYC and it's a crazy process; it has nothing to do with your own life but it is just different conversation from what you get daily. These kids are totally deprived of that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:C9BL, no one is criticizing your lifestyle, we are criticizing the Duggars' lifestyle. But if you think the Duggar girls are being raised to be financially independent, you have been sniffing something other than "stinky diapers."

This. They are bright and capable and hardworking but have been raised to be barefoot and pregnant and dependent and submissive. It is a crime, a form of child abuse IMO to deny your children the opportunity to pursue careers, financial independence and options other than the ones you might want for them.

The modern feminist movement has swallowed y'all whole. Crime? Child abuse?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:C9BL, thanks for the link to the alarmist publication you provided. Nevertheless, US Census figures show that we have 14 births per 1000 people annually in the US, with 8 deaths per thousand. It's been that way for years. So the idea that we are below replacement rate is false. Do the math, don't just buy into Christian Right misleading, blatantly false reporting.

Oh my goodness! I've never been one to use text-speak, but I did laugh out loud over the characterization of USA Today as an "alarmist, "Christian Right" publication! That just happened to be the first article that popped up on Google when I searched for "US birth rate below replacement.". This is not some secret conspiracy theory--it was a big news story this past fall.

Population growth is not a simple "birth rate versus death rate" formula. I am not a social scientist, but I find demographics particularly fascinating, especially as most of the world does not seem to be paying much attention.

There are so many interrelated problems. Welfare states require young, healthy workers to support the elderly and the frail. Due to a combination of longer (but not exactly healthier) life spans with a very sharp drop in birth rates, most first world countries have an unsustainable ratio progression that will soon come to 1:1, or one worker for one dependent.

Some people have said (on this thread) so what? So we have too many old people for about 20 years. We will come out leaner and better.

It's a huge understatement to say it's not that simple.

National Geographic had a really extensive cover story about this issue not too long ago--maybe a year? Don't take my word for these concerns. Why do you think European countries pay women to have children? The Japanese have coined a new word to describe a lonely death. China just created a new law requiring children to take care of their elderly parents.

Children are our greatest natural resource. Individually and collectively, we have tampered with reproduction in such a way as to alter civilization. No human civilization has ever done well with a declining, elderly-majority population. The gender imbalance currently in place in Asia has also never been seen on such a large scale, and societies with even small male-dominated imbalances tend to violence, disorder, and oppression of women. There are no guarantees for success, and we are currently going astray according to all of human history.

Little secret:

These folk are trying to paint you as ignorant because you are Christian. In fact, you are obviously quite intelligent and well-spoken, and they are having issues with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Keep in mind this is a women who compared abortion to The Holocaust.

Ok....and?

It's an example of home schooling.

Just like schools teaching our kids that 9/11 was our fault.

My favorite post. SO SO SO true!! Thank you for pointing this out PP.