Selingo WSJ Essay

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in the South and many of the SEC grads around me are living very comfortable lives- professional careers, beautiful homes, private schools for the kids, country club memberships, the second home, etc. the refreshing thing is that many of them aren’t hung up on the Ivies and other Ivy-type schools- it makes for a much more pleasant, normal high school experience for the kids down here. The Ivies and WASP’s and Ivy+ aren’t the only ticket to the “good life”.

And I think that's the ideal. But if your southern state school friends were to try to make it in New York, San Francisco, Boston, DC, or Chicago, they'd probably have a very tough time. And that's the reality most people are living with. A place like Charleston, SC is fine and all - but that is a place that runs on connections and family. It's not accessible for a random graduate from Northwestern or Brown. Whereas in NY and SF, talent does make a difference, and most bright kids will have better opportunities in those places rather than a southern town where family and history matter more.

Outside of Atlanta or Nashville, talent can't break through in the South. So it remains a very comfortable backwater for locals with all the connections.

Do you really believe it is impossible for someone who say graduated from Alabama to get a job in DC NYC or Boston? Conversely do you think someone who goes to South Carolina and stay there is destined for destitution? I think that is exactly the kind of deluded/panicked self regard that the oped is calling out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in the South and many of the SEC grads around me are living very comfortable lives- professional careers, beautiful homes, private schools for the kids, country club memberships, the second home, etc. the refreshing thing is that many of them aren’t hung up on the Ivies and other Ivy-type schools- it makes for a much more pleasant, normal high school experience for the kids down here. The Ivies and WASP’s and Ivy+ aren’t the only ticket to the “good life”.

I work with a guy who is likely one of the 10 richest in Alabama and he sends his kids to Vandy and Princeton and he said most of the kids from the private Hs are attending the same elite private colleges as private schools in the northeast. Very few of the school’s grads attend Auburn or Alabama (Alabama is 60% OOS).

I don’t think the truly wealthy are much different regardless of where they live.

I'm from Alabama and this is a good point. My well regarded public high school had as many Ivy League matriculations as my husband's private New England private school. This was before FGLI was a thing, and most were from high income and socially established families.

But there were an equal number of wealthy and socially well established families whose kids who went on to Alabama and auburn too.

Both sets of kids are now doing well.

People need to stop trying to make this into a false dichotomy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These articles focus on career “success” and not money “success”.

The insurance policy is that the graduates have rich friends and/or marry someone rich. How many parents on this board earned their 1% vs married their 1%? I am semi-successful professsionally from a meh-private college; my money comes from my husband’s family, not my career.

Both former low-income, heavily aided students who met at an ivy, went to med school at a different but top school, and earn top2%. Most of our adult friends are in medicine or law. About half came from no money and did not marry into significant (top-5%)money. We are younger than the ave college parents, just turned 50, college '97. Our friends are all similar. In fact the smartest two from '97 are a top lawyer and a research MD-phD.about 40% of my ivy was on need-based aid when I attended now it is 55%. parents on dcum who went to college in the 80s have a very different understanding of college compared to people from the late 90s. The legacy friends in my adult involved alum group are predominantly new to the top incomes, and were not legacies ourselves. My ivy absolutely changed my trajectory and it continues to do the same for a larger and larger portion of the undergraduate population.

People gravitate towards people like themselves.
I am going to take a guess that you didn't know anyone of generational wealth in college or grad school - because you don't know how to recognize it. While your ivy opened doors for your generation, the next generation will have a very hard time getting into an ivy because there is no pity party for children of ivy grads.
Many 1st gens that graduate into high salary figures think they have reached an UMC level of wealth but if it's not generational, the children will be wage slaves too trying to maintain the same lifestyle and similarly without any cushion.
Wealth has cushion, those kids can choose careers like art curator or non-profit work because they just need to get by. They don't need to save.

Nailed it.

We are not super wealthy but we have generational wealth (say $20-$25M NW and 1% salary). Kids are high achieving and will do well but there is a safety net for them that most just don’t have because they will never need to save for college expenses or housing down payments. Trusts will cover those things.

Nailed what? Yes you are rich. No it is not necessary to have $20 mil to lead a good life. No, your money does not guarantee your children will be happy and productive, much less your grandchildren. Nor does it prove that a kid going to UVA will never get to the same level you are at.

I only said that we aren’t desperate for Ivy+ schools as many seem to be because there is a safety net for my kids that most don’t have. I personally went to a Public school, not an elite private.

And I am saying you are delusional about your “safety net.” Acting like you have to have $25 mil to be “safe” otherwise you have to make sure your kid gets into Harvard is … deluded. And that is what the article/book says.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in the South and many of the SEC grads around me are living very comfortable lives- professional careers, beautiful homes, private schools for the kids, country club memberships, the second home, etc. the refreshing thing is that many of them aren’t hung up on the Ivies and other Ivy-type schools- it makes for a much more pleasant, normal high school experience for the kids down here. The Ivies and WASP’s and Ivy+ aren’t the only ticket to the “good life”.

I work with a guy who is likely one of the 10 richest in Alabama and he sends his kids to Vandy and Princeton and he said most of the kids from the private Hs are attending the same elite private colleges as private schools in the northeast. Very few of the school’s grads attend Auburn or Alabama (Alabama is 60% OOS).

I don’t think the truly wealthy are much different regardless of where they live.

I'm from Alabama and this is a good point. My well regarded public high school had as many Ivy League matriculations as my husband's private New England private school. This was before FGLI was a thing, and most were from high income and socially established families.

But there were an equal number of wealthy and socially well established families whose kids who went on to Alabama and auburn too.

Both sets of kids are now doing well.

People need to stop trying to make this into a false dichotomy

Except something doesn’t compute for Alabama…it’s the only flagship with a majority of OOS kids (60%) which doesn’t make much sense to me. Even Auburn is only 40% OOS.

Something about Alabama turns off a lot of in state folks and I have to believe the wealthiest are most likely to not care about OOS rates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.wsj.com/us-news/education/the-elite-college-myth-268c4371?st=zZtGi8&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

Excerpt from his new book. His basic point is that career paths are more affected by personal ties, such as what region you come from, than the brand of the school. He claims that Ivy-plus outcomes are no different than highly ranked public universities such as Texas, UCLA and Ohio State (although I wouldn't put Ohio in that list, LOL) for most fields.

The problem, of course, is that in the DMV, desirable career paths are affected by the brand of the school, hence the worrying and lamentations on this board.

I haven’t read through the pages of comments, so maybe someone has already pointed out how wrong you are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in the South and many of the SEC grads around me are living very comfortable lives- professional careers, beautiful homes, private schools for the kids, country club memberships, the second home, etc. the refreshing thing is that many of them aren’t hung up on the Ivies and other Ivy-type schools- it makes for a much more pleasant, normal high school experience for the kids down here. The Ivies and WASP’s and Ivy+ aren’t the only ticket to the “good life”.

I work with a guy who is likely one of the 10 richest in Alabama and he sends his kids to Vandy and Princeton and he said most of the kids from the private Hs are attending the same elite private colleges as private schools in the northeast. Very few of the school’s grads attend Auburn or Alabama (Alabama is 60% OOS).

I don’t think the truly wealthy are much different regardless of where they live.

I'm from Alabama and this is a good point. My well regarded public high school had as many Ivy League matriculations as my husband's private New England private school. This was before FGLI was a thing, and most were from high income and socially established families.

But there were an equal number of wealthy and socially well established families whose kids who went on to Alabama and auburn too.

Both sets of kids are now doing well.

People need to stop trying to make this into a false dichotomy

Except something doesn’t compute for Alabama…it’s the only flagship with a majority of OOS kids (60%) which doesn’t make much sense to me. Even Auburn is only 40% OOS.

Something about Alabama turns off a lot of in state folks and I have to believe the wealthiest are most likely to not care about OOS rates.

Public education in Alabama is extremely weak. To fill a school the size of Alabama necessitates getting OOS students to maintain a baseline level of academic performance. If Alabama were to go nearly all in-state, it’d be the UDC of the South.

To Alabama’s credit, they are really good with merit scholarships for OOS students. They are trying and I think it’s paying off. It’s a perfectly good school today.

As for the rich, of course they are going to prefer Vanderbilt and Princeton. Same with rich people in Manhattan. SUNY Binghamton is also a good school. But hedge fund kids don’t go there. Same in Alabama.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who needs Selingo when the parents of DCUM know everything there is to know about colleges.

Clearly, DCUM not primary intended audience for his Dream School book. Interesting choice to publish this article on WSJ. Isn’t he local?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who needs Selingo when the parents of DCUM know everything there is to know about colleges.

Frankly I think he misses the point a lot of the time. UMC families stress about elite schools because they fear their children are not going to be able to do as well as they did.

Example: Fictional Jones went to his alma mater, Ithaca College in the 90s. Came from modest means, worked hard in professional jobs, had some lucky breaks and did well. Both Mr and Mrs Jones are now in the professional class that has exposed them to the privileges of generational wealth, but they are not there. Since they teeter between both worlds, they see the huge benefits of having financially carefree friends, spouses and colleagues are, vs. having debt-strapped, drama filled of the same.

Do you think Jeff would be super excited about his kid trying to break into journalism these days without the benefits of access to wealth? Working at a local paper is much easier if your spouse comes from money, vs. has student loan debt and no professional connections.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I live in the South and many of the SEC grads around me are living very comfortable lives- professional careers, beautiful homes, private schools for the kids, country club memberships, the second home, etc. the refreshing thing is that many of them aren’t hung up on the Ivies and other Ivy-type schools- it makes for a much more pleasant, normal high school experience for the kids down here. The Ivies and WASP’s and Ivy+ aren’t the only ticket to the “good life”.

I work with a guy who is likely one of the 10 richest in Alabama and he sends his kids to Vandy and Princeton and he said most of the kids from the private Hs are attending the same elite private colleges as private schools in the northeast. Very few of the school’s grads attend Auburn or Alabama (Alabama is 60% OOS).

I don’t think the truly wealthy are much different regardless of where they live.

I'm from Alabama and this is a good point. My well regarded public high school had as many Ivy League matriculations as my husband's private New England private school. This was before FGLI was a thing, and most were from high income and socially established families.

But there were an equal number of wealthy and socially well established families whose kids who went on to Alabama and auburn too.

Both sets of kids are now doing well.

People need to stop trying to make this into a false dichotomy

Except something doesn’t compute for Alabama…it’s the only flagship with a majority of OOS kids (60%) which doesn’t make much sense to me. Even Auburn is only 40% OOS.

Something about Alabama turns off a lot of in state folks and I have to believe the wealthiest are most likely to not care about OOS rates.

Public education in Alabama is extremely weak. To fill a school the size of Alabama necessitates getting OOS students to maintain a baseline level of academic performance. If Alabama were to go nearly all in-state, it’d be the UDC of the South.

To Alabama’s credit, they are really good with merit scholarships for OOS students. They are trying and I think it’s paying off. It’s a perfectly good school today.

As for the rich, of course they are going to prefer Vanderbilt and Princeton. Same with rich people in Manhattan. SUNY Binghamton is also a good school. But hedge fund kids don’t go there. Same in Alabama.

Again…this doesn’t make sense when 80% of LSU and Ole Miss (not to mention UGA and other highly rated schools) are in state.

Are you claiming those schools are the UDC of the south? Not like MS and LA are knocking it out of the park for public education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These articles focus on career “success” and not money “success”.

The insurance policy is that the graduates have rich friends and/or marry someone rich. How many parents on this board earned their 1% vs married their 1%? I am semi-successful professsionally from a meh-private college; my money comes from my husband’s family, not my career.

Both former low-income, heavily aided students who met at an ivy, went to med school at a different but top school, and earn top2%. Most of our adult friends are in medicine or law. About half came from no money and did not marry into significant (top-5%)money. We are younger than the ave college parents, just turned 50, college '97. Our friends are all similar. In fact the smartest two from '97 are a top lawyer and a research MD-phD.about 40% of my ivy was on need-based aid when I attended now it is 55%. parents on dcum who went to college in the 80s have a very different understanding of college compared to people from the late 90s. The legacy friends in my adult involved alum group are predominantly new to the top incomes, and were not legacies ourselves. My ivy absolutely changed my trajectory and it continues to do the same for a larger and larger portion of the undergraduate population.

People gravitate towards people like themselves.
I am going to take a guess that you didn't know anyone of generational wealth in college or grad school - because you don't know how to recognize it. While your ivy opened doors for your generation, the next generation will have a very hard time getting into an ivy because there is no pity party for children of ivy grads.
Many 1st gens that graduate into high salary figures think they have reached an UMC level of wealth but if it's not generational, the children will be wage slaves too trying to maintain the same lifestyle and similarly without any cushion.
Wealth has cushion, those kids can choose careers like art curator or non-profit work because they just need to get by. They don't need to save.

Nailed it.

We are not super wealthy but we have generational wealth (say $20-$25M NW and 1% salary). Kids are high achieving and will do well but there is a safety net for them that most just don’t have because they will never need to save for college expenses or housing down payments. Trusts will cover those things.

Nailed what? Yes you are rich. No it is not necessary to have $20 mil to lead a good life. No, your money does not guarantee your children will be happy and productive, much less your grandchildren. Nor does it prove that a kid going to UVA will never get to the same level you are at.

I only said that we aren’t desperate for Ivy+ schools as many seem to be because there is a safety net for my kids that most don’t have. I personally went to a Public school, not an elite private.

If you had the experience of an elite private/ivy you might feel differently. Plenty of families with safety nets choose elites when their kids get in, Hollywood rich at Brown, Amherst; Bidens at Penn. The ones who do not get kids in are the ones who like to shout about elite not being needed. Of course they are not needed but they do provide a small boost when your kid has goals of top law or similar where certain schools help. Generational-wealth families have kids at my kid's ivy and at sibling's kid's WASP school. The kids are almost all driven and chasing big goals that their elite school will help them get, whether uber rich, regular full pay, or the more than half on aid. My kid has a very good friend with true generational wealth and another on lots of aid. They are real friends and have been since freshman year. There is more mixing than people on DCUM think.
The WSJ Essay does not argue elite doesn't help it just provides a counter that it is not the end all be all. And it isn't. But it is nice to have that elite degree and the uber rich smart families agree

PP: I did have that experience for grad school, just not for undergraduate and that is likely what forms most of my opinion. I went to a solid Public because it was where my seventeen year old self wanted to go. I worked hard and did well. After working for a few years I go into a top grad school, worked hard and did well. I do not doubt the possible benefits of going to top schools. My oldest child is at a elite SLAC because that is where she wanted to go and she is thriving. She had the profile to be competitive anywhere but she had zero interest in the Ivies and also had the freedom to choose without anyone worrying about future economic benefits. I would have been fine (maybe slightly disappointed) if she had wanted to go to a large Public as well.

My brothers kids were able to do the same. One went to a very good Catholic school, one is in a Public, and one turned down both Cornell and Yale to attend Northeastern. She finished with a 4.0 and is at a top medical school so she chose what was right for her which goes to the point that I was trying to make so long ago. Nobody in our family is choosing where to go because it is part of an Athletic Conference which somehow imbues it's schools with a level of prestige out of proportion to their actual quality but rather they are able to freely choose based on what they want for their college education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These articles focus on career “success” and not money “success”.

The insurance policy is that the graduates have rich friends and/or marry someone rich. How many parents on this board earned their 1% vs married their 1%? I am semi-successful professsionally from a meh-private college; my money comes from my husband’s family, not my career.

Both former low-income, heavily aided students who met at an ivy, went to med school at a different but top school, and earn top2%. Most of our adult friends are in medicine or law. About half came from no money and did not marry into significant (top-5%)money. We are younger than the ave college parents, just turned 50, college '97. Our friends are all similar. In fact the smartest two from '97 are a top lawyer and a research MD-phD.about 40% of my ivy was on need-based aid when I attended now it is 55%. parents on dcum who went to college in the 80s have a very different understanding of college compared to people from the late 90s. The legacy friends in my adult involved alum group are predominantly new to the top incomes, and were not legacies ourselves. My ivy absolutely changed my trajectory and it continues to do the same for a larger and larger portion of the undergraduate population.

People gravitate towards people like themselves.
I am going to take a guess that you didn't know anyone of generational wealth in college or grad school - because you don't know how to recognize it. While your ivy opened doors for your generation, the next generation will have a very hard time getting into an ivy because there is no pity party for children of ivy grads.
Many 1st gens that graduate into high salary figures think they have reached an UMC level of wealth but if it's not generational, the children will be wage slaves too trying to maintain the same lifestyle and similarly without any cushion.
Wealth has cushion, those kids can choose careers like art curator or non-profit work because they just need to get by. They don't need to save.

Nailed it.

We are not super wealthy but we have generational wealth (say $20-$25M NW and 1% salary). Kids are high achieving and will do well but there is a safety net for them that most just don’t have because they will never need to save for college expenses or housing down payments. Trusts will cover those things.

Nailed what? Yes you are rich. No it is not necessary to have $20 mil to lead a good life. No, your money does not guarantee your children will be happy and productive, much less your grandchildren. Nor does it prove that a kid going to UVA will never get to the same level you are at.

I only said that we aren’t desperate for Ivy+ schools as many seem to be because there is a safety net for my kids that most don’t have. I personally went to a Public school, not an elite private.

And I am saying you are delusional about your “safety net.” Acting like you have to have $25 mil to be “safe” otherwise you have to make sure your kid gets into Harvard is … deluded. And that is what the article/book says.

That is not at all what I said, you are trying to twist my words. I was pointing out that if you do not have to worry about saving for a down payment on a house when you are starting out or worry about how to save enough in a college fund to put your children through college you have a much wider set of career choices and you may have greater freedom of choice than others. The comment was about the fact that families with generational wealth often do not feel teh same pressuresd that others do when if comes to these schools.

[Anonymous]

Who needs Selingo when Bucknell exists? That is all 1-percenters and DMV parents need to know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who needs Selingo when Bucknell exists? That is all 1-percenters and DMV parents need to know.

Pipeline to the street

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These articles focus on career “success” and not money “success”.

The insurance policy is that the graduates have rich friends and/or marry someone rich. How many parents on this board earned their 1% vs married their 1%? I am semi-successful professsionally from a meh-private college; my money comes from my husband’s family, not my career.

Both former low-income, heavily aided students who met at an ivy, went to med school at a different but top school, and earn top2%. Most of our adult friends are in medicine or law. About half came from no money and did not marry into significant (top-5%)money. We are younger than the ave college parents, just turned 50, college '97. Our friends are all similar. In fact the smartest two from '97 are a top lawyer and a research MD-phD.about 40% of my ivy was on need-based aid when I attended now it is 55%. parents on dcum who went to college in the 80s have a very different understanding of college compared to people from the late 90s. The legacy friends in my adult involved alum group are predominantly new to the top incomes, and were not legacies ourselves. My ivy absolutely changed my trajectory and it continues to do the same for a larger and larger portion of the undergraduate population.

What kind of high school did you attend? How did you do well enough at an Ivy to get into Med school? I was low income and loads of aid at an Ivy from a rinky dink rural high school same time as you and my grades were crushed. High school had been no effort, we didn’t even have final exams, no APs, so when I got into college i struggled. Did you come from a high cost of living region, I thought making $50k out of college was “making it” — and didn’t understand the poor career choices I was making following my “passion” and “idealism”.

DP. I was the val at my large urban high school and I studied really hard after I got there. Went to office hours etc. I did not have anywhere near the background of half the school who came from private schools but I was smarter than many of them and was able to beat the means and graduate phi beta kappa. I also crushed the mcat with a 99%ile score though that was not terribly rare from this undergrad. I went to a “known” big name ivy for med. My main lab partners were also from public school, middle class, single parent and they went to T10 med schools, so did some private school kids. Anything is possible if you have the talent and put in the work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These articles focus on career “success” and not money “success”.

The insurance policy is that the graduates have rich friends and/or marry someone rich. How many parents on this board earned their 1% vs married their 1%? I am semi-successful professsionally from a meh-private college; my money comes from my husband’s family, not my career.

Both former low-income, heavily aided students who met at an ivy, went to med school at a different but top school, and earn top2%. Most of our adult friends are in medicine or law. About half came from no money and did not marry into significant (top-5%)money. We are younger than the ave college parents, just turned 50, college '97. Our friends are all similar. In fact the smartest two from '97 are a top lawyer and a research MD-phD.about 40% of my ivy was on need-based aid when I attended now it is 55%. parents on dcum who went to college in the 80s have a very different understanding of college compared to people from the late 90s. The legacy friends in my adult involved alum group are predominantly new to the top incomes, and were not legacies ourselves. My ivy absolutely changed my trajectory and it continues to do the same for a larger and larger portion of the undergraduate population.

People gravitate towards people like themselves.
I am going to take a guess that you didn't know anyone of generational wealth in college or grad school - because you don't know how to recognize it. While your ivy opened doors for your generation, the next generation will have a very hard time getting into an ivy because there is no pity party for children of ivy grads.
Many 1st gens that graduate into high salary figures think they have reached an UMC level of wealth but if it's not generational, the children will be wage slaves too trying to maintain the same lifestyle and similarly without any cushion.
Wealth has cushion, those kids can choose careers like art curator or non-profit work because they just need to get by. They don't need to save.

Nailed it.

We are not super wealthy but we have generational wealth (say $20-$25M NW and 1% salary). Kids are high achieving and will do well but there is a safety net for them that most just don’t have because they will never need to save for college expenses or housing down payments. Trusts will cover those things.

Nailed what? Yes you are rich. No it is not necessary to have $20 mil to lead a good life. No, your money does not guarantee your children will be happy and productive, much less your grandchildren. Nor does it prove that a kid going to UVA will never get to the same level you are at.

I only said that we aren’t desperate for Ivy+ schools as many seem to be because there is a safety net for my kids that most don’t have. I personally went to a Public school, not an elite private.

And I am saying you are delusional about your “safety net.” Acting like you have to have $25 mil to be “safe” otherwise you have to make sure your kid gets into Harvard is … deluded. And that is what the article/book says.

That is not at all what I said, you are trying to twist my words. I was pointing out that if you do not have to worry about saving for a down payment on a house when you are starting out or worry about how to save enough in a college fund to put your children through college you have a much wider set of career choices and you may have greater freedom of choice than others. The comment was about the fact that families with generational wealth often do not feel teh same pressuresd that others do when if comes to these schools.

What parents give their grown kids downpayment money? Not one of my college friends had that. We all saved as well as took out full loans for med school and still found a way to budget. Resident salaries were 26k back then, they are 75k now! It is not that hard to save for a couple of yrs for a downpayment when you make 75k which most people can make within 5 yrs of graduating a good college. Buy smaller, flip it and sell it in a few years. You just have to study the markets.