European Expansion: Eye-Opening, Frustrating, and Possibly Not Worth It - Underperforming employee culture

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I joined a British company (tho based in US) as part of a turnaround and was shocked at the low salaries. We had US based exec assistants making more than senior professionals in the UK. Seniorish leaders making what I made a couple of years out of grad school. It had nothing to do with health care. US healthcare was a stipend on top of an already huge salary differential. There’s a somewhat bigger govt safety net there, but here there’s more disposable income to save and invest for your future. Before I left, we had moved most of the operations to Britain to save on costs although that creates less flexibility for layoffs (don’t get me started on the consultation process). It’s a poorer quality labor market too. I found you can’t really turnaround a company when no one really is motivated to work hard, and will think much harder about any kind of Europe based opps in the future — particularly the UK which is struggling mightily from a global perspective.

What industry is this? I was in financial services working for a huge firm and our salaries were similar, all over the world. We had offices in NYC, Houston, Singapore, London and Montreal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yup. And they live longer, generally healthier and have happy lives.

And they have health care.

It sounds like a dream to me.

[Anonymous]

I worked in europe till i was 30 and never experienced what you describe. what you describe is extreme by european standards. find a way around it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup. And they live longer, generally healthier and have happy lives.

And they have health care.

It sounds like a dream to me.

Managed care isn't great as there are often long waits. We have tricare and it sucks. I wait months for appointments, tests also take months so if its something serious plan on dying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup. And they live longer, generally healthier and have happy lives.

And they have health care.

It sounds like a dream to me.

Managed care isn't great as there are often long waits. We have tricare and it sucks. I wait months for appointments, tests also take months so if its something serious plan on dying.

Yeah I lived in Switzerland (one of the better ones, mostly private system). Still -- months and months of wait lists.
Good luck getting any elective care during the summer. the country basically shuts down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My company did this too. You nailed it in your first post though - the company did it I guess because it saw it could pay employees half the amount it would pay US employees. But it didn’t factor in a) the additional costs of hiring employees in Europe, like the maternity leave, notice period, etc; and b) when people aren’t afraid they are going to lose their job at a moment’s notice and when the pay isn’t even that good anyway, people are a lot less motivated!

Bingo. Now US employees are "too expensive". I have to say that euro counterparts work their butts off (and work late!) when they are in the office, but it's very true that we have projects that stop for all of August. There are a few people who seem to be on holiday about 50% of the time, no exaggeration. They keep things moving and with the few Americans working all the time, things are getting done.

The Indians are a different slice of the same picture. Very very inexpensive. Lots of national holidays but not the 50% off personal holidays. However, the choices they make when they are working demonstrate why they are inexpensive. Nothing really gets done. There's lots of passivity, too much waiting on direction and other people, so the Americans step in to keep things moving.

If they get rid of the last few Americans because they are comparatively soooo expensive (and this thread has demonstrated why) then good luck with that I guess. I kind of want to sit back and laugh. You get what you pay for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Switzerland is never mentioned on these discussions (it’s not part of the EU but geographically in the center of Europe). It’s a huge employment center for internationals with the highest salaries in Europe and the world AND with European benefits.

Strange the Europe negaters never mention this.

It’s also ranked one of the most innovative countries.

It’s not mentioned likely because it doesn’t have as generous of social benefits as other Western European countries. For example, much more limited maternity leave.

The sad reality is that it’s very difficult to have a robust, dynamic economy with growth industries if people don’t go to work or work very little.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of these happiness studies are a bit odd.

Here are the results of one where the U.S. is ranked 24th, just behind Germany and the UK, but well above France:

https://data.worldhappiness.report/table

What struck if that one of the factors measured is freedom, and the study ranks the US 115th in the world. That makes no sense to me.

Why? We talk a lot about freedom in the US, but talk is cheap and the rule of law including the Constitution doesn't seem to mean much currently.

And yet China ranks 65 in freedom on this list. Whatever definition of freedom is being used, it is not one that is commonly understood. The freedom factor is the one that really drags down the US happiness rating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yup. And they live longer, generally healthier and have happy lives.

And they have health care.

It sounds like a dream to me.

Managed care isn't great as there are often long waits. We have tricare and it sucks. I wait months for appointments, tests also take months so if its something serious plan on dying.

Tricare is nothing like what they have in Europe. The long waits is what Americans have to tell each other yo justify the instance companies we have robbing us blind.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

[Anonymous]

PP the point is that you are the rich that make most Americans more miserable than Europeans. Yes it's great for your elite ilk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Completely agree. It sounds wonderful

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

really and you are complaining?

i worked for 40 years , switched jobs, and hired folks in Dublin for Mastercard. the entry level workers in Ireland were getting more vacation than myself in US.

we are screwed in US.

but is a function of supply and demand. if we have more workers than demand, the price goes down. and our gov has been flooding the IT markets for 35 years with cheap low wage H1Bs/OPTs/L1s/H4EADs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP the point is that you are the rich that make most Americans more miserable than Europeans. Yes it's great for your elite ilk.

That’s what a lot of PP miss. They are comparing UMC Americans to average Europeans. Being an Average American is way way worse.

People complain about waits, but the alternative for 1/3 of the country is no healthcare.