Anonymous wrote:Legally, consent for evaluation is only required for initial 504s and IEP. Re-evaluations do not require consent. However, schools make every effort to gain consent and typically only move forward with assessments without consent when a parent has been unresponsive. If it were an initial, consent would be required. It sounds like OP asked for accommodations based on a new condition. The new condition required evidence. The Connors screens for anxiety, depression, autism, and anxiety, among other things. They cannot add new accommodations just based on OPs word. Based on results, a 504 can sometimes become an IEP instead.
I do not think that is true.
Ok. You should google it then and see for yourself. Consent is only legally required by federal law for initials only. For re-evaluations, at least 3 attempts need to be made to get consent. Districts can move forward with assessments if the parent is unresponsive. It's not hidden information.
That’s very different from “no parental consent required.” The parent can refuse the reevaluation.
It really isn't. The law says that consent is only required for an initial. What schools choose to do about re-evaluations is entirely up to them. But, consent is not legally required. If the parent refuses the re-evaluation the school can dismiss based on majority vote of the team and the parent would then need to pursue via due process. But, again, they'd come up against the need for assessments.
All this is irrelevant. OP consented to the evaluation.
You don’t have to consent to everything the school wants to do in an evaluation, obviously. You can give partial consent.
Anonymous wrote:Legally, consent for evaluation is only required for initial 504s and IEP. Re-evaluations do not require consent. However, schools make every effort to gain consent and typically only move forward with assessments without consent when a parent has been unresponsive. If it were an initial, consent would be required. It sounds like OP asked for accommodations based on a new condition. The new condition required evidence. The Connors screens for anxiety, depression, autism, and anxiety, among other things. They cannot add new accommodations just based on OPs word. Based on results, a 504 can sometimes become an IEP instead.
I do not think that is true.
Ok. You should google it then and see for yourself. Consent is only legally required by federal law for initials only. For re-evaluations, at least 3 attempts need to be made to get consent. Districts can move forward with assessments if the parent is unresponsive. It's not hidden information.
That’s very different from “no parental consent required.” The parent can refuse the reevaluation.
It really isn't. The law says that consent is only required for an initial. What schools choose to do about re-evaluations is entirely up to them. But, consent is not legally required. If the parent refuses the re-evaluation the school can dismiss based on majority vote of the team and the parent would then need to pursue via due process. But, again, they'd come up against the need for assessments.
All this is irrelevant. OP consented to the evaluation.
You don’t have to consent to everything the school wants to do in an evaluation, obviously. You can give partial consent.
Yes, and if OP was not informed of all the testing to take place then she was denied the opportunity for partial consent.
Anonymous wrote:Legally, consent for evaluation is only required for initial 504s and IEP. Re-evaluations do not require consent. However, schools make every effort to gain consent and typically only move forward with assessments without consent when a parent has been unresponsive. If it were an initial, consent would be required. It sounds like OP asked for accommodations based on a new condition. The new condition required evidence. The Connors screens for anxiety, depression, autism, and anxiety, among other things. They cannot add new accommodations just based on OPs word. Based on results, a 504 can sometimes become an IEP instead.
I do not think that is true.
Ok. You should google it then and see for yourself. Consent is only legally required by federal law for initials only. For re-evaluations, at least 3 attempts need to be made to get consent. Districts can move forward with assessments if the parent is unresponsive. It's not hidden information.
That’s very different from “no parental consent required.” The parent can refuse the reevaluation.
It really isn't. The law says that consent is only required for an initial. What schools choose to do about re-evaluations is entirely up to them. But, consent is not legally required. If the parent refuses the re-evaluation the school can dismiss based on majority vote of the team and the parent would then need to pursue via due process. But, again, they'd come up against the need for assessments.
All this is irrelevant. OP consented to the evaluation.
You don’t have to consent to everything the school wants to do in an evaluation, obviously. You can give partial consent.
But OP didn't do that. OP consented to the evaluation.
Anonymous wrote:School Psychologist here...I have given the conners thousands of times...I always wondered if any parent would get upset over the nature of some of the questions....but not once in my years as a veteran psych...until I saw this thread.
Same here!
I have been a school psychologist for 24 years. (To my school psych peeps- on the Conners 4 you can now disable conduct disorder questions and print out the questionnaires without them!) I do warn parents that the Connors is for ages 6 to 18 so a few of the questions are not appropriate for elementary school students, so don't be alarmed if there are a few questions about using a weapon, etc. They can skip those or put never or if they have occurred to call me to discuss it. The reason those questions are there is that they are from taken from the criteria to meet Conduct Disorder in the DSM-5. The criteria to meet it is:
A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following 15 criteria in the past 12 months from any of the categories below, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:
Aggression to people and animals
often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others
often initiates physical fights
has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)
has been physically cruel to people
has been physically cruel to animals
has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)
has forced someone into sexual activity
Destruction of property
has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage
has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting)
Deceitfulness or theft
has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car
often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others)
has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)
Serious violations of rules
often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years
has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period)
is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
Thanks for this. My DD took this test for ADHD and it seemed like they were trying to determine if there was some severe behavior or personality disorder, not just ADHD and if you answered affirmative to these then it was not ADHD and something else. Seems an odd way to determine ADHD. As if well, it's not anti-social or borderline personality so must be ADHD, because there's nothing else left. Is this really the best way to determine this?
yes
Comorbid conditions, confounding factors, and validation of screening tools to identify disorders are all at play. What do you prefer instead of one of the validated tools that is designed to distinguish the interplay of potentially comorbid and/or confounding disorders?
Look, if a child isn't following instructions, that could be because they have a problem with their hearing. Maybe they don't understand the language. Maybe they try but become easily distracted from the intended path. Maybe they don't hear the instruction because they are shifting focus on different sensations or moving their body. Maybe they can hear and understand, but don't want to follow instructions. Maybe they want to rile the teacher up and know that disobeying will do it.
These all can look the same. Just think about it. And now, how do you think someone is supposed to distinguish between these possible explanations in a systematic way that is validated in research trials to most closely approximate a more detailed assessment (since this is a screen we are talking about)?
No, you don’t screen a 9 year old for conduct disorder when the concern is anxiety or ADHD. The PP school psychologist already explained you can take the sexual/physical violence questions out for younger kids.
Yes, you do, for that and ODD. That is why it is in the original validated tool. It sounds like you can remove certain questions, but I do not believe any professional organizations or academic treatment centers recommend it -- I certainly invite anyone who identified as a school psychologist to link to information otherwise. Would be interested in reading it. I suspect this is secondary to parental pressure, rather than medical or psychological professional recommendations, but I could be wrong.
Again, I'd like the cite.
Per the research evidence, roughly half of children who qualify for a diagnosis of ADHD end up also qualifying for a diagnosis of ODD or CD. CD is generally diagnosed between 8 and 16 years old, and incidence increases with age. It's important to know if that is developing because it affects how aggressive the recommendations in treatment are.
Of course, I still support parental decisions not to assess for or address these matters, but let's not assume it doesn't go against standard practice.
Please provide a cite supporting that a 9 yr old child with anxiety & attention symptoms must be screened for ODD and conduct disorder. That’s just completely stupid. If OP said the kid was being violent or oppositional maybe.
I don't believe what that poster is saying at all. It's pure bs. Half the kids with adhd do not have odd or cd. What a load of crap.
The wording is not the same as what you assumed, and that makes it a different claim, but it's correct.
ADHD is difficult to manage on its own; it is even harder to handle in conjunction with co-existing disorders. Roughly half of all children with ADHD will also develop ODD or CD. The prevalence of co-occurring CD increases with age and the disorder may affect as many as 50 percent of teens with ADHD. Likewise, about 60 percent of teens with CD also have co-occurring ADHD. CD is most likely to develop in those with severe ADHD symptoms. Those with both disorders tend to experience an earlier age of symptom onset, more severe symptoms, and more emotional and psychiatric problems than those with just ADHD or CD.
Disruptive behavior disorders [ODD, CD] are comorbid with ADHD roughly 50% of the time, and anxiety and depressive disorders are comorbid with ADHD approximately 25-30% of the time (Barkley, 2006, pp.206-207).
Rates of comorbidities among children with ADHD vary across settings, and tend to be lower in community samples (Barkley, 2006; Bauermeister et al., 2007; Jarrett & Ollendick, 2008). Bauermeister and colleagues (2007) report the following prevalence of comorbid disorders in community and clinical settings respectively: oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) 38.9% vs. 61.2%; conduct disorder (CD) 13.2% vs. 10.2%; any anxiety disorder 24.5% vs. 33.5%; and any depressive disorder 9.3% vs. 22.7%.
Comorbidity between ADHD and ODD is substantial; one-third to one-half of children with one disorder also meet criteria for the other [not including CD, just ODD] (Nock et al., 2007; Waschbusch, 2002).
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD): Almost one-third of children with ADHD have symptoms of conduct disorder [this does not necessarily include ODD] and other central nervous system dysfunction or damage.
That doesn't mean your child with ADHD has a 50% chance of setting animals on fire, or something. It also doesn't mean that if you look around at a snapshot in time, half of the kids with ADHD are committing legal crimes. For one thing, this is about whether certain children will screen positive over the course of their adolescence, not that they are all doing it at one.
It does mean that development of some maladaptive coping skills is sometimes confused with ADHD, sometimes comorbid with ADHD, and sometimes intertwined in a way that justifies jumping the queue to get some services or resources. It's also why screens for ADHD classically include a few questions about this. But, as always, screens are not definitive -- they are sensitive (not necessarily specific) tools that serve as guides for further discussion and deeper assessment when flagged.
Anonymous wrote:Legally, consent for evaluation is only required for initial 504s and IEP. Re-evaluations do not require consent. However, schools make every effort to gain consent and typically only move forward with assessments without consent when a parent has been unresponsive. If it were an initial, consent would be required. It sounds like OP asked for accommodations based on a new condition. The new condition required evidence. The Connors screens for anxiety, depression, autism, and anxiety, among other things. They cannot add new accommodations just based on OPs word. Based on results, a 504 can sometimes become an IEP instead.
I do not think that is true.
Ok. You should google it then and see for yourself. Consent is only legally required by federal law for initials only. For re-evaluations, at least 3 attempts need to be made to get consent. Districts can move forward with assessments if the parent is unresponsive. It's not hidden information.
That’s very different from “no parental consent required.” The parent can refuse the reevaluation.
It really isn't. The law says that consent is only required for an initial. What schools choose to do about re-evaluations is entirely up to them. But, consent is not legally required. If the parent refuses the re-evaluation the school can dismiss based on majority vote of the team and the parent would then need to pursue via due process. But, again, they'd come up against the need for assessments.
All this is irrelevant. OP consented to the evaluation.
You don’t have to consent to everything the school wants to do in an evaluation, obviously. You can give partial consent.
But OP didn't do that. OP consented to the evaluation.
OP is saying she didn’t understand about the types of questions and did not consent to them. Not sure why this is hard for you to understand.
Anonymous wrote:School Psychologist here...I have given the conners thousands of times...I always wondered if any parent would get upset over the nature of some of the questions....but not once in my years as a veteran psych...until I saw this thread.
Same here!
I have been a school psychologist for 24 years. (To my school psych peeps- on the Conners 4 you can now disable conduct disorder questions and print out the questionnaires without them!) I do warn parents that the Connors is for ages 6 to 18 so a few of the questions are not appropriate for elementary school students, so don't be alarmed if there are a few questions about using a weapon, etc. They can skip those or put never or if they have occurred to call me to discuss it. The reason those questions are there is that they are from taken from the criteria to meet Conduct Disorder in the DSM-5. The criteria to meet it is:
A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following 15 criteria in the past 12 months from any of the categories below, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:
Aggression to people and animals
often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others
often initiates physical fights
has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)
has been physically cruel to people
has been physically cruel to animals
has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)
has forced someone into sexual activity
Destruction of property
has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage
has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting)
Deceitfulness or theft
has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car
often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others)
has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)
Serious violations of rules
often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years
has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period)
is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
Thanks for this. My DD took this test for ADHD and it seemed like they were trying to determine if there was some severe behavior or personality disorder, not just ADHD and if you answered affirmative to these then it was not ADHD and something else. Seems an odd way to determine ADHD. As if well, it's not anti-social or borderline personality so must be ADHD, because there's nothing else left. Is this really the best way to determine this?
yes
Comorbid conditions, confounding factors, and validation of screening tools to identify disorders are all at play. What do you prefer instead of one of the validated tools that is designed to distinguish the interplay of potentially comorbid and/or confounding disorders?
Look, if a child isn't following instructions, that could be because they have a problem with their hearing. Maybe they don't understand the language. Maybe they try but become easily distracted from the intended path. Maybe they don't hear the instruction because they are shifting focus on different sensations or moving their body. Maybe they can hear and understand, but don't want to follow instructions. Maybe they want to rile the teacher up and know that disobeying will do it.
These all can look the same. Just think about it. And now, how do you think someone is supposed to distinguish between these possible explanations in a systematic way that is validated in research trials to most closely approximate a more detailed assessment (since this is a screen we are talking about)?
No, you don’t screen a 9 year old for conduct disorder when the concern is anxiety or ADHD. The PP school psychologist already explained you can take the sexual/physical violence questions out for younger kids.
Yes, you do, for that and ODD. That is why it is in the original validated tool. It sounds like you can remove certain questions, but I do not believe any professional organizations or academic treatment centers recommend it -- I certainly invite anyone who identified as a school psychologist to link to information otherwise. Would be interested in reading it. I suspect this is secondary to parental pressure, rather than medical or psychological professional recommendations, but I could be wrong.
Again, I'd like the cite.
Per the research evidence, roughly half of children who qualify for a diagnosis of ADHD end up also qualifying for a diagnosis of ODD or CD. CD is generally diagnosed between 8 and 16 years old, and incidence increases with age. It's important to know if that is developing because it affects how aggressive the recommendations in treatment are.
Of course, I still support parental decisions not to assess for or address these matters, but let's not assume it doesn't go against standard practice.
Please provide a cite supporting that a 9 yr old child with anxiety & attention symptoms must be screened for ODD and conduct disorder. That’s just completely stupid. If OP said the kid was being violent or oppositional maybe.
I don't believe what that poster is saying at all. It's pure bs. Half the kids with adhd do not have odd or cd. What a load of crap.
The wording is not the same as what you assumed, and that makes it a different claim, but it's correct.
ADHD is difficult to manage on its own; it is even harder to handle in conjunction with co-existing disorders. Roughly half of all children with ADHD will also develop ODD or CD. The prevalence of co-occurring CD increases with age and the disorder may affect as many as 50 percent of teens with ADHD. Likewise, about 60 percent of teens with CD also have co-occurring ADHD. CD is most likely to develop in those with severe ADHD symptoms. Those with both disorders tend to experience an earlier age of symptom onset, more severe symptoms, and more emotional and psychiatric problems than those with just ADHD or CD.
Disruptive behavior disorders [ODD, CD] are comorbid with ADHD roughly 50% of the time, and anxiety and depressive disorders are comorbid with ADHD approximately 25-30% of the time (Barkley, 2006, pp.206-207).
Rates of comorbidities among children with ADHD vary across settings, and tend to be lower in community samples (Barkley, 2006; Bauermeister et al., 2007; Jarrett & Ollendick, 2008). Bauermeister and colleagues (2007) report the following prevalence of comorbid disorders in community and clinical settings respectively: oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) 38.9% vs. 61.2%; conduct disorder (CD) 13.2% vs. 10.2%; any anxiety disorder 24.5% vs. 33.5%; and any depressive disorder 9.3% vs. 22.7%.
Comorbidity between ADHD and ODD is substantial; one-third to one-half of children with one disorder also meet criteria for the other [not including CD, just ODD] (Nock et al., 2007; Waschbusch, 2002).
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD): Almost one-third of children with ADHD have symptoms of conduct disorder [this does not necessarily include ODD] and other central nervous system dysfunction or damage.
That doesn't mean your child with ADHD has a 50% chance of setting animals on fire, or something. It also doesn't mean that if you look around at a snapshot in time, half of the kids with ADHD are committing legal crimes. For one thing, this is about whether certain children will screen positive over the course of their adolescence, not that they are all doing it at one.
It does mean that development of some maladaptive coping skills is sometimes confused with ADHD, sometimes comorbid with ADHD, and sometimes intertwined in a way that justifies jumping the queue to get some services or resources. It's also why screens for ADHD classically include a few questions about this. But, as always, screens are not definitive -- they are sensitive (not necessarily specific) tools that serve as guides for further discussion and deeper assessment when flagged.
Just stop. It’s already been established that the sexual vioence & weapons questions can be omitted from the Conners. Kids presenting with simple anxiety or inattention, with no complaints about aggression or defiance, do not need to be screened for ODD and conduct disorder.
Anonymous wrote:School Psychologist here...I have given the conners thousands of times...I always wondered if any parent would get upset over the nature of some of the questions....but not once in my years as a veteran psych...until I saw this thread.
Same here!
I have been a school psychologist for 24 years. (To my school psych peeps- on the Conners 4 you can now disable conduct disorder questions and print out the questionnaires without them!) I do warn parents that the Connors is for ages 6 to 18 so a few of the questions are not appropriate for elementary school students, so don't be alarmed if there are a few questions about using a weapon, etc. They can skip those or put never or if they have occurred to call me to discuss it. The reason those questions are there is that they are from taken from the criteria to meet Conduct Disorder in the DSM-5. The criteria to meet it is:
A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following 15 criteria in the past 12 months from any of the categories below, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:
Aggression to people and animals
often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others
often initiates physical fights
has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)
has been physically cruel to people
has been physically cruel to animals
has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)
has forced someone into sexual activity
Destruction of property
has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage
has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting)
Deceitfulness or theft
has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car
often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others)
has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)
Serious violations of rules
often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years
has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period)
is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
Thanks for this. My DD took this test for ADHD and it seemed like they were trying to determine if there was some severe behavior or personality disorder, not just ADHD and if you answered affirmative to these then it was not ADHD and something else. Seems an odd way to determine ADHD. As if well, it's not anti-social or borderline personality so must be ADHD, because there's nothing else left. Is this really the best way to determine this?
yes
Comorbid conditions, confounding factors, and validation of screening tools to identify disorders are all at play. What do you prefer instead of one of the validated tools that is designed to distinguish the interplay of potentially comorbid and/or confounding disorders?
Look, if a child isn't following instructions, that could be because they have a problem with their hearing. Maybe they don't understand the language. Maybe they try but become easily distracted from the intended path. Maybe they don't hear the instruction because they are shifting focus on different sensations or moving their body. Maybe they can hear and understand, but don't want to follow instructions. Maybe they want to rile the teacher up and know that disobeying will do it.
These all can look the same. Just think about it. And now, how do you think someone is supposed to distinguish between these possible explanations in a systematic way that is validated in research trials to most closely approximate a more detailed assessment (since this is a screen we are talking about)?
No, you don’t screen a 9 year old for conduct disorder when the concern is anxiety or ADHD. The PP school psychologist already explained you can take the sexual/physical violence questions out for younger kids.
Yes, you do, for that and ODD. That is why it is in the original validated tool. It sounds like you can remove certain questions, but I do not believe any professional organizations or academic treatment centers recommend it -- I certainly invite anyone who identified as a school psychologist to link to information otherwise. Would be interested in reading it. I suspect this is secondary to parental pressure, rather than medical or psychological professional recommendations, but I could be wrong.
Again, I'd like the cite.
Per the research evidence, roughly half of children who qualify for a diagnosis of ADHD end up also qualifying for a diagnosis of ODD or CD. CD is generally diagnosed between 8 and 16 years old, and incidence increases with age. It's important to know if that is developing because it affects how aggressive the recommendations in treatment are.
Of course, I still support parental decisions not to assess for or address these matters, but let's not assume it doesn't go against standard practice.
Please provide a cite supporting that a 9 yr old child with anxiety & attention symptoms must be screened for ODD and conduct disorder. That’s just completely stupid. If OP said the kid was being violent or oppositional maybe.
I don't believe what that poster is saying at all. It's pure bs. Half the kids with adhd do not have odd or cd. What a load of crap.
The wording is not the same as what you assumed, and that makes it a different claim, but it's correct.
ADHD is difficult to manage on its own; it is even harder to handle in conjunction with co-existing disorders. Roughly half of all children with ADHD will also develop ODD or CD. The prevalence of co-occurring CD increases with age and the disorder may affect as many as 50 percent of teens with ADHD. Likewise, about 60 percent of teens with CD also have co-occurring ADHD. CD is most likely to develop in those with severe ADHD symptoms. Those with both disorders tend to experience an earlier age of symptom onset, more severe symptoms, and more emotional and psychiatric problems than those with just ADHD or CD.
Disruptive behavior disorders [ODD, CD] are comorbid with ADHD roughly 50% of the time, and anxiety and depressive disorders are comorbid with ADHD approximately 25-30% of the time (Barkley, 2006, pp.206-207).
Rates of comorbidities among children with ADHD vary across settings, and tend to be lower in community samples (Barkley, 2006; Bauermeister et al., 2007; Jarrett & Ollendick, 2008). Bauermeister and colleagues (2007) report the following prevalence of comorbid disorders in community and clinical settings respectively: oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) 38.9% vs. 61.2%; conduct disorder (CD) 13.2% vs. 10.2%; any anxiety disorder 24.5% vs. 33.5%; and any depressive disorder 9.3% vs. 22.7%.
Comorbidity between ADHD and ODD is substantial; one-third to one-half of children with one disorder also meet criteria for the other [not including CD, just ODD] (Nock et al., 2007; Waschbusch, 2002).
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD): Almost one-third of children with ADHD have symptoms of conduct disorder [this does not necessarily include ODD] and other central nervous system dysfunction or damage.
That doesn't mean your child with ADHD has a 50% chance of setting animals on fire, or something. It also doesn't mean that if you look around at a snapshot in time, half of the kids with ADHD are committing legal crimes. For one thing, this is about whether certain children will screen positive over the course of their adolescence, not that they are all doing it at one.
It does mean that development of some maladaptive coping skills is sometimes confused with ADHD, sometimes comorbid with ADHD, and sometimes intertwined in a way that justifies jumping the queue to get some services or resources. It's also why screens for ADHD classically include a few questions about this. But, as always, screens are not definitive -- they are sensitive (not necessarily specific) tools that serve as guides for further discussion and deeper assessment when flagged.
Just stop. It’s already been established that the sexual vioence & weapons questions can be omitted from the Conners. Kids presenting with simple anxiety or inattention, with no complaints about aggression or defiance, do not need to be screened for ODD and conduct disorder.
How do you know to ask for questions to be ommitted if you don't know what questions will be asked until after the evaluation?
Anonymous wrote:Legally, consent for evaluation is only required for initial 504s and IEP. Re-evaluations do not require consent. However, schools make every effort to gain consent and typically only move forward with assessments without consent when a parent has been unresponsive. If it were an initial, consent would be required. It sounds like OP asked for accommodations based on a new condition. The new condition required evidence. The Connors screens for anxiety, depression, autism, and anxiety, among other things. They cannot add new accommodations just based on OPs word. Based on results, a 504 can sometimes become an IEP instead.
I do not think that is true.
Ok. You should google it then and see for yourself. Consent is only legally required by federal law for initials only. For re-evaluations, at least 3 attempts need to be made to get consent. Districts can move forward with assessments if the parent is unresponsive. It's not hidden information.
That’s very different from “no parental consent required.” The parent can refuse the reevaluation.
It really isn't. The law says that consent is only required for an initial. What schools choose to do about re-evaluations is entirely up to them. But, consent is not legally required. If the parent refuses the re-evaluation the school can dismiss based on majority vote of the team and the parent would then need to pursue via due process. But, again, they'd come up against the need for assessments.
All this is irrelevant. OP consented to the evaluation.
You don’t have to consent to everything the school wants to do in an evaluation, obviously. You can give partial consent.
But OP didn't do that. OP consented to the evaluation.
OP is saying she didn’t understand about the types of questions and did not consent to them. Not sure why this is hard for you to understand.
If OP consented without asking, that’s on OP. I do think her post serves as a warning though. If that level of control is important to you, you need to ask questions and be involved before you agree. And you can get your own evaluations instead of relying on the school.
Anonymous wrote:School Psychologist here...I have given the conners thousands of times...I always wondered if any parent would get upset over the nature of some of the questions....but not once in my years as a veteran psych...until I saw this thread.
Same here!
I have been a school psychologist for 24 years. (To my school psych peeps- on the Conners 4 you can now disable conduct disorder questions and print out the questionnaires without them!) I do warn parents that the Connors is for ages 6 to 18 so a few of the questions are not appropriate for elementary school students, so don't be alarmed if there are a few questions about using a weapon, etc. They can skip those or put never or if they have occurred to call me to discuss it. The reason those questions are there is that they are from taken from the criteria to meet Conduct Disorder in the DSM-5. The criteria to meet it is:
A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following 15 criteria in the past 12 months from any of the categories below, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:
Aggression to people and animals
often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others
often initiates physical fights
has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)
has been physically cruel to people
has been physically cruel to animals
has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)
has forced someone into sexual activity
Destruction of property
has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage
has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting)
Deceitfulness or theft
has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car
often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others)
has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)
Serious violations of rules
often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years
has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period)
is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
Thanks for this. My DD took this test for ADHD and it seemed like they were trying to determine if there was some severe behavior or personality disorder, not just ADHD and if you answered affirmative to these then it was not ADHD and something else. Seems an odd way to determine ADHD. As if well, it's not anti-social or borderline personality so must be ADHD, because there's nothing else left. Is this really the best way to determine this?
yes
Comorbid conditions, confounding factors, and validation of screening tools to identify disorders are all at play. What do you prefer instead of one of the validated tools that is designed to distinguish the interplay of potentially comorbid and/or confounding disorders?
Look, if a child isn't following instructions, that could be because they have a problem with their hearing. Maybe they don't understand the language. Maybe they try but become easily distracted from the intended path. Maybe they don't hear the instruction because they are shifting focus on different sensations or moving their body. Maybe they can hear and understand, but don't want to follow instructions. Maybe they want to rile the teacher up and know that disobeying will do it.
These all can look the same. Just think about it. And now, how do you think someone is supposed to distinguish between these possible explanations in a systematic way that is validated in research trials to most closely approximate a more detailed assessment (since this is a screen we are talking about)?
No, you don’t screen a 9 year old for conduct disorder when the concern is anxiety or ADHD. The PP school psychologist already explained you can take the sexual/physical violence questions out for younger kids.
Yes, you do, for that and ODD. That is why it is in the original validated tool. It sounds like you can remove certain questions, but I do not believe any professional organizations or academic treatment centers recommend it -- I certainly invite anyone who identified as a school psychologist to link to information otherwise. Would be interested in reading it. I suspect this is secondary to parental pressure, rather than medical or psychological professional recommendations, but I could be wrong.
Again, I'd like the cite.
Per the research evidence, roughly half of children who qualify for a diagnosis of ADHD end up also qualifying for a diagnosis of ODD or CD. CD is generally diagnosed between 8 and 16 years old, and incidence increases with age. It's important to know if that is developing because it affects how aggressive the recommendations in treatment are.
Of course, I still support parental decisions not to assess for or address these matters, but let's not assume it doesn't go against standard practice.
Please provide a cite supporting that a 9 yr old child with anxiety & attention symptoms must be screened for ODD and conduct disorder. That’s just completely stupid. If OP said the kid was being violent or oppositional maybe.
I don't believe what that poster is saying at all. It's pure bs. Half the kids with adhd do not have odd or cd. What a load of crap.
The wording is not the same as what you assumed, and that makes it a different claim, but it's correct.
ADHD is difficult to manage on its own; it is even harder to handle in conjunction with co-existing disorders. Roughly half of all children with ADHD will also develop ODD or CD. The prevalence of co-occurring CD increases with age and the disorder may affect as many as 50 percent of teens with ADHD. Likewise, about 60 percent of teens with CD also have co-occurring ADHD. CD is most likely to develop in those with severe ADHD symptoms. Those with both disorders tend to experience an earlier age of symptom onset, more severe symptoms, and more emotional and psychiatric problems than those with just ADHD or CD.
Disruptive behavior disorders [ODD, CD] are comorbid with ADHD roughly 50% of the time, and anxiety and depressive disorders are comorbid with ADHD approximately 25-30% of the time (Barkley, 2006, pp.206-207).
Rates of comorbidities among children with ADHD vary across settings, and tend to be lower in community samples (Barkley, 2006; Bauermeister et al., 2007; Jarrett & Ollendick, 2008). Bauermeister and colleagues (2007) report the following prevalence of comorbid disorders in community and clinical settings respectively: oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) 38.9% vs. 61.2%; conduct disorder (CD) 13.2% vs. 10.2%; any anxiety disorder 24.5% vs. 33.5%; and any depressive disorder 9.3% vs. 22.7%.
Comorbidity between ADHD and ODD is substantial; one-third to one-half of children with one disorder also meet criteria for the other [not including CD, just ODD] (Nock et al., 2007; Waschbusch, 2002).
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD): Almost one-third of children with ADHD have symptoms of conduct disorder [this does not necessarily include ODD] and other central nervous system dysfunction or damage.
That doesn't mean your child with ADHD has a 50% chance of setting animals on fire, or something. It also doesn't mean that if you look around at a snapshot in time, half of the kids with ADHD are committing legal crimes. For one thing, this is about whether certain children will screen positive over the course of their adolescence, not that they are all doing it at one.
It does mean that development of some maladaptive coping skills is sometimes confused with ADHD, sometimes comorbid with ADHD, and sometimes intertwined in a way that justifies jumping the queue to get some services or resources. It's also why screens for ADHD classically include a few questions about this. But, as always, screens are not definitive -- they are sensitive (not necessarily specific) tools that serve as guides for further discussion and deeper assessment when flagged.
Just stop. It’s already been established that the sexual vioence & weapons questions can be omitted from the Conners. Kids presenting with simple anxiety or inattention, with no complaints about aggression or defiance, do not need to be screened for ODD and conduct disorder.
"Can be" is not the same as "is recommended," but sure. Just be a little more clear about why these things come up. It's not random, and it's not unsubstantiated by evidence-based research.
But you always get to be the parent for your own child, absolutely. You are in charge of your own house, however that shakes out.
Anonymous wrote:School Psychologist here...I have given the conners thousands of times...I always wondered if any parent would get upset over the nature of some of the questions....but not once in my years as a veteran psych...until I saw this thread.
Same here!
I have been a school psychologist for 24 years. (To my school psych peeps- on the Conners 4 you can now disable conduct disorder questions and print out the questionnaires without them!) I do warn parents that the Connors is for ages 6 to 18 so a few of the questions are not appropriate for elementary school students, so don't be alarmed if there are a few questions about using a weapon, etc. They can skip those or put never or if they have occurred to call me to discuss it. The reason those questions are there is that they are from taken from the criteria to meet Conduct Disorder in the DSM-5. The criteria to meet it is:
A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following 15 criteria in the past 12 months from any of the categories below, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:
Aggression to people and animals
often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others
often initiates physical fights
has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)
has been physically cruel to people
has been physically cruel to animals
has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)
has forced someone into sexual activity
Destruction of property
has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage
has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting)
Deceitfulness or theft
has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car
often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others)
has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)
Serious violations of rules
often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years
has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period)
is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
Thanks for this. My DD took this test for ADHD and it seemed like they were trying to determine if there was some severe behavior or personality disorder, not just ADHD and if you answered affirmative to these then it was not ADHD and something else. Seems an odd way to determine ADHD. As if well, it's not anti-social or borderline personality so must be ADHD, because there's nothing else left. Is this really the best way to determine this?
yes
Comorbid conditions, confounding factors, and validation of screening tools to identify disorders are all at play. What do you prefer instead of one of the validated tools that is designed to distinguish the interplay of potentially comorbid and/or confounding disorders?
Look, if a child isn't following instructions, that could be because they have a problem with their hearing. Maybe they don't understand the language. Maybe they try but become easily distracted from the intended path. Maybe they don't hear the instruction because they are shifting focus on different sensations or moving their body. Maybe they can hear and understand, but don't want to follow instructions. Maybe they want to rile the teacher up and know that disobeying will do it.
These all can look the same. Just think about it. And now, how do you think someone is supposed to distinguish between these possible explanations in a systematic way that is validated in research trials to most closely approximate a more detailed assessment (since this is a screen we are talking about)?
No, you don’t screen a 9 year old for conduct disorder when the concern is anxiety or ADHD. The PP school psychologist already explained you can take the sexual/physical violence questions out for younger kids.
Yes, you do, for that and ODD. That is why it is in the original validated tool. It sounds like you can remove certain questions, but I do not believe any professional organizations or academic treatment centers recommend it -- I certainly invite anyone who identified as a school psychologist to link to information otherwise. Would be interested in reading it. I suspect this is secondary to parental pressure, rather than medical or psychological professional recommendations, but I could be wrong.
Again, I'd like the cite.
Per the research evidence, roughly half of children who qualify for a diagnosis of ADHD end up also qualifying for a diagnosis of ODD or CD. CD is generally diagnosed between 8 and 16 years old, and incidence increases with age. It's important to know if that is developing because it affects how aggressive the recommendations in treatment are.
Of course, I still support parental decisions not to assess for or address these matters, but let's not assume it doesn't go against standard practice.
Please provide a cite supporting that a 9 yr old child with anxiety & attention symptoms must be screened for ODD and conduct disorder. That’s just completely stupid. If OP said the kid was being violent or oppositional maybe.
I don't believe what that poster is saying at all. It's pure bs. Half the kids with adhd do not have odd or cd. What a load of crap.
The wording is not the same as what you assumed, and that makes it a different claim, but it's correct.
ADHD is difficult to manage on its own; it is even harder to handle in conjunction with co-existing disorders. Roughly half of all children with ADHD will also develop ODD or CD. The prevalence of co-occurring CD increases with age and the disorder may affect as many as 50 percent of teens with ADHD. Likewise, about 60 percent of teens with CD also have co-occurring ADHD. CD is most likely to develop in those with severe ADHD symptoms. Those with both disorders tend to experience an earlier age of symptom onset, more severe symptoms, and more emotional and psychiatric problems than those with just ADHD or CD.
Disruptive behavior disorders [ODD, CD] are comorbid with ADHD roughly 50% of the time, and anxiety and depressive disorders are comorbid with ADHD approximately 25-30% of the time (Barkley, 2006, pp.206-207).
Rates of comorbidities among children with ADHD vary across settings, and tend to be lower in community samples (Barkley, 2006; Bauermeister et al., 2007; Jarrett & Ollendick, 2008). Bauermeister and colleagues (2007) report the following prevalence of comorbid disorders in community and clinical settings respectively: oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) 38.9% vs. 61.2%; conduct disorder (CD) 13.2% vs. 10.2%; any anxiety disorder 24.5% vs. 33.5%; and any depressive disorder 9.3% vs. 22.7%.
Comorbidity between ADHD and ODD is substantial; one-third to one-half of children with one disorder also meet criteria for the other [not including CD, just ODD] (Nock et al., 2007; Waschbusch, 2002).
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD): Almost one-third of children with ADHD have symptoms of conduct disorder [this does not necessarily include ODD] and other central nervous system dysfunction or damage.
That doesn't mean your child with ADHD has a 50% chance of setting animals on fire, or something. It also doesn't mean that if you look around at a snapshot in time, half of the kids with ADHD are committing legal crimes. For one thing, this is about whether certain children will screen positive over the course of their adolescence, not that they are all doing it at one.
It does mean that development of some maladaptive coping skills is sometimes confused with ADHD, sometimes comorbid with ADHD, and sometimes intertwined in a way that justifies jumping the queue to get some services or resources. It's also why screens for ADHD classically include a few questions about this. But, as always, screens are not definitive -- they are sensitive (not necessarily specific) tools that serve as guides for further discussion and deeper assessment when flagged.
Just stop. It’s already been established that the sexual vioence & weapons questions can be omitted from the Conners. Kids presenting with simple anxiety or inattention, with no complaints about aggression or defiance, do not need to be screened for ODD and conduct disorder.
How do you know to ask for questions to be ommitted if you don't know what questions will be asked until after the evaluation?
Maybe it would be a good idea to look at the freely available questions on a given screen that is suggested, if this is important to you?
Anonymous wrote:Legally, consent for evaluation is only required for initial 504s and IEP. Re-evaluations do not require consent. However, schools make every effort to gain consent and typically only move forward with assessments without consent when a parent has been unresponsive. If it were an initial, consent would be required. It sounds like OP asked for accommodations based on a new condition. The new condition required evidence. The Connors screens for anxiety, depression, autism, and anxiety, among other things. They cannot add new accommodations just based on OPs word. Based on results, a 504 can sometimes become an IEP instead.
I do not think that is true.
Ok. You should google it then and see for yourself. Consent is only legally required by federal law for initials only. For re-evaluations, at least 3 attempts need to be made to get consent. Districts can move forward with assessments if the parent is unresponsive. It's not hidden information.
That’s very different from “no parental consent required.” The parent can refuse the reevaluation.
It really isn't. The law says that consent is only required for an initial. What schools choose to do about re-evaluations is entirely up to them. But, consent is not legally required. If the parent refuses the re-evaluation the school can dismiss based on majority vote of the team and the parent would then need to pursue via due process. But, again, they'd come up against the need for assessments.
All this is irrelevant. OP consented to the evaluation.
You don’t have to consent to everything the school wants to do in an evaluation, obviously. You can give partial consent.
But OP didn't do that. OP consented to the evaluation.
OP is saying she didn’t understand about the types of questions and did not consent to them. Not sure why this is hard for you to understand.
If OP consented without asking, that’s on OP. I do think her post serves as a warning though. If that level of control is important to you, you need to ask questions and be involved before you agree. And you can get your own evaluations instead of relying on the school.
DP - +1 to the bolded. This issue is about how controlling you are as a parent. People consent to things all.the.time without reading the fine print. It’s perfectly reasonable for a parent to ask what measures will be included in an assessment. If you don’t do that, throwing a fit after the fact is your right, but it’s not productive (or fair, IMO).
Anonymous wrote:School Psychologist here...I have given the conners thousands of times...I always wondered if any parent would get upset over the nature of some of the questions....but not once in my years as a veteran psych...until I saw this thread.
Same here!
I have been a school psychologist for 24 years. (To my school psych peeps- on the Conners 4 you can now disable conduct disorder questions and print out the questionnaires without them!) I do warn parents that the Connors is for ages 6 to 18 so a few of the questions are not appropriate for elementary school students, so don't be alarmed if there are a few questions about using a weapon, etc. They can skip those or put never or if they have occurred to call me to discuss it. The reason those questions are there is that they are from taken from the criteria to meet Conduct Disorder in the DSM-5. The criteria to meet it is:
A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following 15 criteria in the past 12 months from any of the categories below, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:
Aggression to people and animals
often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others
often initiates physical fights
has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)
has been physically cruel to people
has been physically cruel to animals
has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)
has forced someone into sexual activity
Destruction of property
has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage
has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting)
Deceitfulness or theft
has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car
often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others)
has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)
Serious violations of rules
often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years
has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period)
is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
Thanks for this. My DD took this test for ADHD and it seemed like they were trying to determine if there was some severe behavior or personality disorder, not just ADHD and if you answered affirmative to these then it was not ADHD and something else. Seems an odd way to determine ADHD. As if well, it's not anti-social or borderline personality so must be ADHD, because there's nothing else left. Is this really the best way to determine this?
yes
Comorbid conditions, confounding factors, and validation of screening tools to identify disorders are all at play. What do you prefer instead of one of the validated tools that is designed to distinguish the interplay of potentially comorbid and/or confounding disorders?
Look, if a child isn't following instructions, that could be because they have a problem with their hearing. Maybe they don't understand the language. Maybe they try but become easily distracted from the intended path. Maybe they don't hear the instruction because they are shifting focus on different sensations or moving their body. Maybe they can hear and understand, but don't want to follow instructions. Maybe they want to rile the teacher up and know that disobeying will do it.
These all can look the same. Just think about it. And now, how do you think someone is supposed to distinguish between these possible explanations in a systematic way that is validated in research trials to most closely approximate a more detailed assessment (since this is a screen we are talking about)?
No, you don’t screen a 9 year old for conduct disorder when the concern is anxiety or ADHD. The PP school psychologist already explained you can take the sexual/physical violence questions out for younger kids.
Yes, you do, for that and ODD. That is why it is in the original validated tool. It sounds like you can remove certain questions, but I do not believe any professional organizations or academic treatment centers recommend it -- I certainly invite anyone who identified as a school psychologist to link to information otherwise. Would be interested in reading it. I suspect this is secondary to parental pressure, rather than medical or psychological professional recommendations, but I could be wrong.
Again, I'd like the cite.
Per the research evidence, roughly half of children who qualify for a diagnosis of ADHD end up also qualifying for a diagnosis of ODD or CD. CD is generally diagnosed between 8 and 16 years old, and incidence increases with age. It's important to know if that is developing because it affects how aggressive the recommendations in treatment are.
Of course, I still support parental decisions not to assess for or address these matters, but let's not assume it doesn't go against standard practice.
Please provide a cite supporting that a 9 yr old child with anxiety & attention symptoms must be screened for ODD and conduct disorder. That’s just completely stupid. If OP said the kid was being violent or oppositional maybe.
I don't believe what that poster is saying at all. It's pure bs. Half the kids with adhd do not have odd or cd. What a load of crap.
The wording is not the same as what you assumed, and that makes it a different claim, but it's correct.
ADHD is difficult to manage on its own; it is even harder to handle in conjunction with co-existing disorders. Roughly half of all children with ADHD will also develop ODD or CD. The prevalence of co-occurring CD increases with age and the disorder may affect as many as 50 percent of teens with ADHD. Likewise, about 60 percent of teens with CD also have co-occurring ADHD. CD is most likely to develop in those with severe ADHD symptoms. Those with both disorders tend to experience an earlier age of symptom onset, more severe symptoms, and more emotional and psychiatric problems than those with just ADHD or CD.
Disruptive behavior disorders [ODD, CD] are comorbid with ADHD roughly 50% of the time, and anxiety and depressive disorders are comorbid with ADHD approximately 25-30% of the time (Barkley, 2006, pp.206-207).
Rates of comorbidities among children with ADHD vary across settings, and tend to be lower in community samples (Barkley, 2006; Bauermeister et al., 2007; Jarrett & Ollendick, 2008). Bauermeister and colleagues (2007) report the following prevalence of comorbid disorders in community and clinical settings respectively: oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) 38.9% vs. 61.2%; conduct disorder (CD) 13.2% vs. 10.2%; any anxiety disorder 24.5% vs. 33.5%; and any depressive disorder 9.3% vs. 22.7%.
Comorbidity between ADHD and ODD is substantial; one-third to one-half of children with one disorder also meet criteria for the other [not including CD, just ODD] (Nock et al., 2007; Waschbusch, 2002).
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD): Almost one-third of children with ADHD have symptoms of conduct disorder [this does not necessarily include ODD] and other central nervous system dysfunction or damage.
That doesn't mean your child with ADHD has a 50% chance of setting animals on fire, or something. It also doesn't mean that if you look around at a snapshot in time, half of the kids with ADHD are committing legal crimes. For one thing, this is about whether certain children will screen positive over the course of their adolescence, not that they are all doing it at one.
It does mean that development of some maladaptive coping skills is sometimes confused with ADHD, sometimes comorbid with ADHD, and sometimes intertwined in a way that justifies jumping the queue to get some services or resources. It's also why screens for ADHD classically include a few questions about this. But, as always, screens are not definitive -- they are sensitive (not necessarily specific) tools that serve as guides for further discussion and deeper assessment when flagged.
Just stop. It’s already been established that the sexual vioence & weapons questions can be omitted from the Conners. Kids presenting with simple anxiety or inattention, with no complaints about aggression or defiance, do not need to be screened for ODD and conduct disorder.
How do you know to ask for questions to be ommitted if you don't know what questions will be asked until after the evaluation?
Anonymous wrote:Legally, consent for evaluation is only required for initial 504s and IEP. Re-evaluations do not require consent. However, schools make every effort to gain consent and typically only move forward with assessments without consent when a parent has been unresponsive. If it were an initial, consent would be required. It sounds like OP asked for accommodations based on a new condition. The new condition required evidence. The Connors screens for anxiety, depression, autism, and anxiety, among other things. They cannot add new accommodations just based on OPs word. Based on results, a 504 can sometimes become an IEP instead.
I do not think that is true.
Ok. You should google it then and see for yourself. Consent is only legally required by federal law for initials only. For re-evaluations, at least 3 attempts need to be made to get consent. Districts can move forward with assessments if the parent is unresponsive. It's not hidden information.
That’s very different from “no parental consent required.” The parent can refuse the reevaluation.
It really isn't. The law says that consent is only required for an initial. What schools choose to do about re-evaluations is entirely up to them. But, consent is not legally required. If the parent refuses the re-evaluation the school can dismiss based on majority vote of the team and the parent would then need to pursue via due process. But, again, they'd come up against the need for assessments.
All this is irrelevant. OP consented to the evaluation.
You don’t have to consent to everything the school wants to do in an evaluation, obviously. You can give partial consent.
But OP didn't do that. OP consented to the evaluation.
OP is saying she didn’t understand about the types of questions and did not consent to them. Not sure why this is hard for you to understand.
If OP consented without asking, that’s on OP. I do think her post serves as a warning though. If that level of control is important to you, you need to ask questions and be involved before you agree. And you can get your own evaluations instead of relying on the school.
I think the point is that we as parents have the right to expect that evaluations will be properly tailored and will not contain any inappropriate questions. We shouldn’t have to ask for this.
Anonymous wrote:School Psychologist here...I have given the conners thousands of times...I always wondered if any parent would get upset over the nature of some of the questions....but not once in my years as a veteran psych...until I saw this thread.
Same here!
I have been a school psychologist for 24 years. (To my school psych peeps- on the Conners 4 you can now disable conduct disorder questions and print out the questionnaires without them!) I do warn parents that the Connors is for ages 6 to 18 so a few of the questions are not appropriate for elementary school students, so don't be alarmed if there are a few questions about using a weapon, etc. They can skip those or put never or if they have occurred to call me to discuss it. The reason those questions are there is that they are from taken from the criteria to meet Conduct Disorder in the DSM-5. The criteria to meet it is:
A repetitive and persistent pattern of behavior in which the basic rights of others or major age-appropriate societal norms or rules are violated, as manifested by the presence of three (or more) of the following 15 criteria in the past 12 months from any of the categories below, with at least one criterion present in the past 6 months:
Aggression to people and animals
often bullies, threatens, or intimidates others
often initiates physical fights
has used a weapon that can cause serious physical harm to others (e.g., a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife, gun)
has been physically cruel to people
has been physically cruel to animals
has stolen while confronting a victim (e.g., mugging, purse snatching, extortion, armed robbery)
has forced someone into sexual activity
Destruction of property
has deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention of causing serious damage
has deliberately destroyed others’ property (other than by fire setting)
Deceitfulness or theft
has broken into someone else’s house, building, or car
often lies to obtain goods or favors or to avoid obligations (i.e., “cons” others)
has stolen items of nontrivial value without confronting a victim (e.g., shoplifting, but without breaking and entering; forgery)
Serious violations of rules
often stays out at night despite parental prohibitions, beginning before age 13 years
has run away from home overnight at least twice while living in parental or parental surrogate home (or once without returning for a lengthy period)
is often truant from school, beginning before age 13 years The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
Thanks for this. My DD took this test for ADHD and it seemed like they were trying to determine if there was some severe behavior or personality disorder, not just ADHD and if you answered affirmative to these then it was not ADHD and something else. Seems an odd way to determine ADHD. As if well, it's not anti-social or borderline personality so must be ADHD, because there's nothing else left. Is this really the best way to determine this?
yes
Comorbid conditions, confounding factors, and validation of screening tools to identify disorders are all at play. What do you prefer instead of one of the validated tools that is designed to distinguish the interplay of potentially comorbid and/or confounding disorders?
Look, if a child isn't following instructions, that could be because they have a problem with their hearing. Maybe they don't understand the language. Maybe they try but become easily distracted from the intended path. Maybe they don't hear the instruction because they are shifting focus on different sensations or moving their body. Maybe they can hear and understand, but don't want to follow instructions. Maybe they want to rile the teacher up and know that disobeying will do it.
These all can look the same. Just think about it. And now, how do you think someone is supposed to distinguish between these possible explanations in a systematic way that is validated in research trials to most closely approximate a more detailed assessment (since this is a screen we are talking about)?
No, you don’t screen a 9 year old for conduct disorder when the concern is anxiety or ADHD. The PP school psychologist already explained you can take the sexual/physical violence questions out for younger kids.
Yes, you do, for that and ODD. That is why it is in the original validated tool. It sounds like you can remove certain questions, but I do not believe any professional organizations or academic treatment centers recommend it -- I certainly invite anyone who identified as a school psychologist to link to information otherwise. Would be interested in reading it. I suspect this is secondary to parental pressure, rather than medical or psychological professional recommendations, but I could be wrong.
Again, I'd like the cite.
Per the research evidence, roughly half of children who qualify for a diagnosis of ADHD end up also qualifying for a diagnosis of ODD or CD. CD is generally diagnosed between 8 and 16 years old, and incidence increases with age. It's important to know if that is developing because it affects how aggressive the recommendations in treatment are.
Of course, I still support parental decisions not to assess for or address these matters, but let's not assume it doesn't go against standard practice.
Please provide a cite supporting that a 9 yr old child with anxiety & attention symptoms must be screened for ODD and conduct disorder. That’s just completely stupid. If OP said the kid was being violent or oppositional maybe.
I don't believe what that poster is saying at all. It's pure bs. Half the kids with adhd do not have odd or cd. What a load of crap.
The wording is not the same as what you assumed, and that makes it a different claim, but it's correct.
ADHD is difficult to manage on its own; it is even harder to handle in conjunction with co-existing disorders. Roughly half of all children with ADHD will also develop ODD or CD. The prevalence of co-occurring CD increases with age and the disorder may affect as many as 50 percent of teens with ADHD. Likewise, about 60 percent of teens with CD also have co-occurring ADHD. CD is most likely to develop in those with severe ADHD symptoms. Those with both disorders tend to experience an earlier age of symptom onset, more severe symptoms, and more emotional and psychiatric problems than those with just ADHD or CD.
Disruptive behavior disorders [ODD, CD] are comorbid with ADHD roughly 50% of the time, and anxiety and depressive disorders are comorbid with ADHD approximately 25-30% of the time (Barkley, 2006, pp.206-207).
Rates of comorbidities among children with ADHD vary across settings, and tend to be lower in community samples (Barkley, 2006; Bauermeister et al., 2007; Jarrett & Ollendick, 2008). Bauermeister and colleagues (2007) report the following prevalence of comorbid disorders in community and clinical settings respectively: oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) 38.9% vs. 61.2%; conduct disorder (CD) 13.2% vs. 10.2%; any anxiety disorder 24.5% vs. 33.5%; and any depressive disorder 9.3% vs. 22.7%.
Comorbidity between ADHD and ODD is substantial; one-third to one-half of children with one disorder also meet criteria for the other [not including CD, just ODD] (Nock et al., 2007; Waschbusch, 2002).
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD): Almost one-third of children with ADHD have symptoms of conduct disorder [this does not necessarily include ODD] and other central nervous system dysfunction or damage.
That doesn't mean your child with ADHD has a 50% chance of setting animals on fire, or something. It also doesn't mean that if you look around at a snapshot in time, half of the kids with ADHD are committing legal crimes. For one thing, this is about whether certain children will screen positive over the course of their adolescence, not that they are all doing it at one.
It does mean that development of some maladaptive coping skills is sometimes confused with ADHD, sometimes comorbid with ADHD, and sometimes intertwined in a way that justifies jumping the queue to get some services or resources. It's also why screens for ADHD classically include a few questions about this. But, as always, screens are not definitive -- they are sensitive (not necessarily specific) tools that serve as guides for further discussion and deeper assessment when flagged.
Just stop. It’s already been established that the sexual vioence & weapons questions can be omitted from the Conners. Kids presenting with simple anxiety or inattention, with no complaints about aggression or defiance, do not need to be screened for ODD and conduct disorder.
"Can be" is not the same as "is recommended," but sure. Just be a little more clear about why these things come up. It's not random, and it's not unsubstantiated by evidence-based research.
But you always get to be the parent for your own child, absolutely. You are in charge of your own house, however that shakes out.
Please, show me the research that says 9 yr old kids with plain vanilla anxiety or inattention should be screened for conduct disorder.
Anonymous wrote:Legally, consent for evaluation is only required for initial 504s and IEP. Re-evaluations do not require consent. However, schools make every effort to gain consent and typically only move forward with assessments without consent when a parent has been unresponsive. If it were an initial, consent would be required. It sounds like OP asked for accommodations based on a new condition. The new condition required evidence. The Connors screens for anxiety, depression, autism, and anxiety, among other things. They cannot add new accommodations just based on OPs word. Based on results, a 504 can sometimes become an IEP instead.
I do not think that is true.
Ok. You should google it then and see for yourself. Consent is only legally required by federal law for initials only. For re-evaluations, at least 3 attempts need to be made to get consent. Districts can move forward with assessments if the parent is unresponsive. It's not hidden information.
That’s very different from “no parental consent required.” The parent can refuse the reevaluation.
It really isn't. The law says that consent is only required for an initial. What schools choose to do about re-evaluations is entirely up to them. But, consent is not legally required. If the parent refuses the re-evaluation the school can dismiss based on majority vote of the team and the parent would then need to pursue via due process. But, again, they'd come up against the need for assessments.
All this is irrelevant. OP consented to the evaluation.
You don’t have to consent to everything the school wants to do in an evaluation, obviously. You can give partial consent.
But OP didn't do that. OP consented to the evaluation.
OP is saying she didn’t understand about the types of questions and did not consent to them. Not sure why this is hard for you to understand.
If OP consented without asking, that’s on OP. I do think her post serves as a warning though. If that level of control is important to you, you need to ask questions and be involved before you agree. And you can get your own evaluations instead of relying on the school.
DP - +1 to the bolded. This issue is about how controlling you are as a parent. People consent to things all.the.time without reading the fine print. It’s perfectly reasonable for a parent to ask what measures will be included in an assessment. If you don’t do that, throwing a fit after the fact is your right, but it’s not productive (or fair, IMO).
I don’t think that’s fair. The vast majority of reasonable parents would be suprised when if they asked for anxiety accomodations for their *nine* year old, the child was asked if they ever used a gun or raped someone.
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