Donut hole reality

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of why it's gotten so insanely expensive to go to many colleges is because families that are UMC are expected to shoulder not just the cost of their own kid attending but all the kids that are attending for free or at low rates. I want those kids to go to college too but that should be funded from either government money or endowments not jacking up tuition on other families struggling to pay for school too.

💯

That’s the big secret of the schools that no one talks about. Who is really funding all of the need blind awards. It’s not the endowments. And it’s def not the government.

It’s the fact that tuition goes up every year and insane amount and families with over $300,000 in income are expected to be full pay. That is robbery from one group to satisfy the other.

Another +1

TO me the bigger issue is merit aid that takes away from the pot of money for financial need. If all that emrit aid went into the financial need jar, the income level you need to have to qualify for need based aid would be higher.

My nieces and nephews and cousins got 20 to 30k in merit aid for tons of schools. These are very well off kids whose parents can absolutely afford to be full pay. I'd rather see that money go to middle class kids, not kids whose parents make half a million a year.

The merit aid is an illusion. The "real" price of the college is less than the sticker price. They mark it up with the intent of marking it down for most students. IME, mid range schools that give merit are generally matching a relatively expensive in-state school or a bit more. If they stuck with the (not real) sticker price, you'd lose those kids currently getting merit aid to a good in-state public. Plenty of parents making good salaries want to feel they are getting a decent value for their education dollars.

Nothing about college pricing is accidental or not thoroughly considered, modeled, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A tiny subset of people think it's smart and shows "value" by saving for 18 years - skipping out on taking kids to see London or having an apartment with a third bedroom - so you can blow it all for 4 years of Vassar. Just so that kid can then grow up to save and scrimp for 18 years in their 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom apartment with 1.4 kids

Most Americans making 250k feel fine about having a 4th kid, putting in a pool, buying that Serena and Lilly patio set, going to see the World Cup, sending their parents on a cruise, buying their 18 year old a car, throwing a big wedding, writing a check for kid's downpayment and generally enjoying life. Sure, their kids go to U of Illinois or Wisconsin. Guess what? They have a ball and then get the same jobs as our kids.

DCUM is home to that first tiny subset. Most Americans do not find this life at all aspirational.

No, honey, we live like that to pay for a state school. So, yes, I'd love to take my kid to London but I'd rather pay for college and grad school for them.

ah yes. the "honey" poster who makes 250k and pays for state school. gotchu.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A tiny subset of people think it's smart and shows "value" by saving for 18 years - skipping out on taking kids to see London or having an apartment with a third bedroom - so you can blow it all for 4 years of Vassar. Just so that kid can then grow up to save and scrimp for 18 years in their 2 bedroom, 1 bathroom apartment with 1.4 kids

Most Americans making 250k feel fine about having a 4th kid, putting in a pool, buying that Serena and Lilly patio set, going to see the World Cup, sending their parents on a cruise, buying their 18 year old a car, throwing a big wedding, writing a check for kid's downpayment and generally enjoying life. Sure, their kids go to U of Illinois or Wisconsin. Guess what? They have a ball and then get the same jobs as our kids.

DCUM is home to that first tiny subset. Most Americans do not find this life at all aspirational.

I agree, it does make more sense to live life. Save for in-state at a minimum and then maybe for mid tier private (if instate is $35-40K now, perhaps $50K/year). Then live your life as you want and send your kids to schools you can afford. But do not complain that you cannot afford $80-90K/year. You could have still lives life some and chosen to save more for college if that was your top choice. I agree, most should not do that.

But if you want the elite, tippy top school then you have to save. Nobody is entitled to it. And yes, those making Sub 100K will get great aid at those schools---those schools can choose how to provide aid as they see fit. If you don't like it nobody is forcing you to attend

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of why it's gotten so insanely expensive to go to many colleges is because families that are UMC are expected to shoulder not just the cost of their own kid attending but all the kids that are attending for free or at low rates. I want those kids to go to college too but that should be funded from either government money or endowments not jacking up tuition on other families struggling to pay for school too.

💯

That’s the big secret of the schools that no one talks about. Who is really funding all of the need blind awards. It’s not the endowments. And it’s def not the government.

It’s the fact that tuition goes up every year and insane amount and families with over $300,000 in income are expected to be full pay. That is robbery from one group to satisfy the other.

Another +1

TO me the bigger issue is merit aid that takes away from the pot of money for financial need. If all that emrit aid went into the financial need jar, the income level you need to have to qualify for need based aid would be higher.

My nieces and nephews and cousins got 20 to 30k in merit aid for tons of schools. These are very well off kids whose parents can absolutely afford to be full pay. I'd rather see that money go to middle class kids, not kids whose parents make half a million a year.

Well fortunately for me, that is not your choice. It's up to the school how they want to attract top students (top for their university). That's exactly what merit aid is. Why should a kid be penalized simply because their parents make more or chose to save more than someone else? A kid who excels in HS has the option to find a place that is really affordable, if they want. Maybe their parents only saved $400K and the kid wants medical school/professional school. A smart kid will go to a good school that only costs them $20K/year and save the rest for medical/law/dental/wahtever grad school. Colleges want to attract "top students" and they use merit aid to do so. It's their choice.

Affordable for everyone is out there---every state has a large state schools that majority of good students can get admission to (in VA that might be VCU/JMU) but there are affordable places to get an education if you really want to do it without debt. It might not be the TOP school in the state but there are options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s not donut hole. That’s a comfortable family. The rest of our kids go to state schools.

This. If you have sticker shock, but the ability to pay you aren't really a donut hole.

Ability to pay when that ability means constant struggle, isn’t really comfortable.

Families with more than one kid and $250-300k don’t get financial aid. Paying $180-200k/year for kids’ tuition isn’t easy.

250k does at top tier schools, especially with more than one in at the same time.

Apparently, not this year...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just filled out the NPC for Boston College with 180 AGI + 30k untaxed. Total cost of attendance $63K. Not nothing but not $100k.

we make a bit more than that (not a lot) and qualify for nada.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s not donut hole. That’s a comfortable family. The rest of our kids go to state schools.

This. If you have sticker shock, but the ability to pay you aren't really a donut hole.

Ability to pay is often at the cost of liquidating retirement funds, home equity, life style and nursing home savings.

Shouldn't be. The top schools have excellent need based FA. Many who would be a fafsa doughnut hole would get FA. To be paying full price means, you are well off in earnings and non-retirement assets. Even home equity is often capped (not 2nd or 3rd home of course).

The real problem is failing to save. No one should expect to cashflow college. We started saving when kids in elementary and thought we were late to the game.

Bullsh. First of all, by the time you get to college aged kids, you may be making the most salary you've made. But almost no one makes that their entire career. We saved and save a LOT. We have old cars. No second home. No generational wealth. We have good retirement. Those are the things we've funded: college and retirement.

But all of those things are counted against us, as if we can cashflow $50-90k/year. We can't. And we aren't getting aid. We've made our peace with the schools are high stats kid can go (based on finances) and have had to forego much better schools b/c of money. It should not be this way.

I get that those of you not as well off like to dump on higher earners (UMC) to make yourselves feel better. But we've done everything right. Both coming from just above poverty line upbringings. The "American Dream" of work hard and good things flow from that is a bunch of horse sh-- when it comes to college admissions and sending your kids to the best school. The very wealthy get that opportunity. The poor get that opportunity. No one else.

You live under your means, you save starting at birth and when your income increases you save it vs changing your spending.

Will you be repeating this same ridiculous, tone-deaf message when the cost of elite schools exceeds $100K/year? $200K? Just save, sacrifice, drive an old car?

At what point in your view is it just not possible for donut hole families?

And why is this ok again?

DP: why is it okay for you to assume that everyone is entitled to an education at an elite university? There are tons of affordable universities for students that most kids can gain admission to. VCU/JMU/GMU in VA. Towson, UMBC in MD. Just to name a few.
There are places to get a great education that can be affordable to you. Instead of complaining about the elite T25 schools (That are more highly rejective than selective---most likely your kid isn't getting in), focus your efforts on finding schools that are affordable.

There is the CC to 4 year college plan as well. It's extremely affordable. Even more affordable if you do DE in HS and graduate HS with your AA as well. Then the first 2 years cost you maybe $4K (in my area it's cost of books only). Then you only need 2 years at 4 year to finish up.

I agree it's ridiculous things cost $85K+. But that's really only 50-60 schools that cost more than that and some of them do give merit awards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's ridiculous. Send your kid to a decent public school - there are plenty of them.

Most likely what we are doing- W&M or UVA

I just read all these people fighting over prestige and it’s crazy. My kid got into many of these schools they are raving about, but not worth the $.

Don't say you don't care about prestige and then throw out you're planning on UVA or W&M. GMAFB.

Or that their kid applied to the schools and are now not going to accept. Why apply?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's ridiculous. Send your kid to a decent public school - there are plenty of them.

Most likely what we are doing- W&M or UVA

I just read all these people fighting over prestige and it’s crazy. My kid got into many of these schools they are raving about, but not worth the $.

Has your child been accepted to either of those schools? Not an easy get. Also - some kids are not a good fit for huge state schools. So - why do you care how others spend their money?

My DC has been accepted in state to w&m. The estimated cost for in state is $43k. Insane!

It is one of the most expensive in-state schools. But, it is more like a private SLAC. It is not your typical public state university--given the very small class sizes and professors teaching each course.

VA publics in general are some of the most expensive in the nation. You could go OOS to Penn State for cheaper than WM and about the same price as UVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's ridiculous. Send your kid to a decent public school - there are plenty of them.

Most likely what we are doing- W&M or UVA

I just read all these people fighting over prestige and it’s crazy. My kid got into many of these schools they are raving about, but not worth the $.

Don't say you don't care about prestige and then throw out you're planning on UVA or W&M. GMAFB.

Or that their kid applied to the schools and are now not going to accept. Why apply?

In case they were shut out of the VA publics which is what we are seeing with a lot of bright VA kids.

They had back-ups that were expensive and, thankfully, got in-state acceptances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s not donut hole. That’s a comfortable family. The rest of our kids go to state schools.

This. If you have sticker shock, but the ability to pay you aren't really a donut hole.

Ability to pay is often at the cost of liquidating retirement funds, home equity, life style and nursing home savings.

Shouldn't be. The top schools have excellent need based FA. Many who would be a fafsa doughnut hole would get FA. To be paying full price means, you are well off in earnings and non-retirement assets. Even home equity is often capped (not 2nd or 3rd home of course).

The real problem is failing to save. No one should expect to cashflow college. We started saving when kids in elementary and thought we were late to the game.

Bullsh. First of all, by the time you get to college aged kids, you may be making the most salary you've made. But almost no one makes that their entire career. We saved and save a LOT. We have old cars. No second home. No generational wealth. We have good retirement. Those are the things we've funded: college and retirement.

But all of those things are counted against us, as if we can cashflow $50-90k/year. We can't. And we aren't getting aid. We've made our peace with the schools are high stats kid can go (based on finances) and have had to forego much better schools b/c of money. It should not be this way.

I get that those of you not as well off like to dump on higher earners (UMC) to make yourselves feel better. But we've done everything right. Both coming from just above poverty line upbringings. The "American Dream" of work hard and good things flow from that is a bunch of horse sh-- when it comes to college admissions and sending your kids to the best school. The very wealthy get that opportunity. The poor get that opportunity. No one else.

You live under your means, you save starting at birth and when your income increases you save it vs changing your spending.

Will you be repeating this same ridiculous, tone-deaf message when the cost of elite schools exceeds $100K/year? $200K? Just save, sacrifice, drive an old car?

At what point in your view is it just not possible for donut hole families?

And why is this ok again?

The point is when you choose an expensive house, cars, vacations and lifestyle while others of us save and don't do those things on equal or less income, why do you feel entitled to tons of aid while we have to full pay?

It's all about choices. You chose to have the house, fancy cars, fancy vacations and fancy lifestyle and not save as much for college. No problem with that. As long as you don't now feel entitled to financial aid.
If I cannot afford a $80K car, I buy a $30K Honda/Toyota. I don't complain that it's not fair. Or I drive my current car another 2-3 years and actively save so that I can afford a nicer car (maybe a $50K). But I dont' complain that others can afford it and life isn't fair.
Same with a house or vacations. We lived our 20s paying off college debt and saving saving saving. Didn't have kids until we were 30+ so we could be financially sound. We were mid to late 30s before we took "fancy vacations". We still enjoyed life, just did it on a reasonable budget. But we knew plenty of people who spent spent spent. Maybe it was worth it for them. maybe not. I just know I don't regret getting a strong financial base when young, even if it meant forgoing "luxury items"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My god— my niece paid $100k freshmen year to attend Boston College.

It’s not very different from Georgetown or any of the SLACs.

My child has been accepted to some very adjective universities (5-6%%) acceptance rate—but paying $70k more per year over the very good VA public university seems ludicrous.

This is the point we have come to in higher education. A $400k undergrad degree?

Yep, we are at this same realization. We've saved a lot and thought it would be enough. It's not. We are foregoing all of those big, fancy schools as it does not make sense. Once out of grad school it will not matter that DC went to Bridgewater vs. Boston College. Sorry, it won't.

These prices are unsustainable and it's absurd we accept them as "normal" now.

Yes. My cousin just received his Master’s at Hopkins (Baltimore campus) after GMU. It’s the last school he attended that employees care about. Landed a great job.

That’s exactly what I told my kid and what he plans to do.

The private expensive colleges are getting weird socially anyway. Multigenerational wealth and low income people is a recipe for clique formation.

+2 Plus the crazy competitive grinders have changed the social dynamics of even then”fun” top tier schools like Northwestern, Vanderbilt, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's ridiculous. Send your kid to a decent public school - there are plenty of them.

Most likely what we are doing- W&M or UVA

I just read all these people fighting over prestige and it’s crazy. My kid got into many of these schools they are raving about, but not worth the $.

Has your child been accepted to either of those schools? Not an easy get. Also - some kids are not a good fit for huge state schools. So - why do you care how others spend their money?

My DC has been accepted in state to w&m. The estimated cost for in state is $43k. Insane!

Welcome to the New World. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell family (incl DH) and until they looked it up themselves, they just didn’t believe me. Their “oh just go to [UVA/VT/W&M]” doesn’t fly. First, your DC has to get in (congrats, btw!!), then you’ve literally got to justify the multiple six-figures to go. Our household is having issues with the latter so some plans have been majorly (all puns intended?) changed.

I’m not really complaining but it sure is a bit of a bitter pill to swallow.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That’s not donut hole. That’s a comfortable family. The rest of our kids go to state schools.

This. If you have sticker shock, but the ability to pay you aren't really a donut hole.

Ability to pay is often at the cost of liquidating retirement funds, home equity, life style and nursing home savings.

Shouldn't be. The top schools have excellent need based FA. Many who would be a fafsa doughnut hole would get FA. To be paying full price means, you are well off in earnings and non-retirement assets. Even home equity is often capped (not 2nd or 3rd home of course).

The real problem is failing to save. No one should expect to cashflow college. We started saving when kids in elementary and thought we were late to the game.

Bullsh. First of all, by the time you get to college aged kids, you may be making the most salary you've made. But almost no one makes that their entire career. We saved and save a LOT. We have old cars. No second home. No generational wealth. We have good retirement. Those are the things we've funded: college and retirement.

But all of those things are counted against us, as if we can cashflow $50-90k/year. We can't. And we aren't getting aid. We've made our peace with the schools are high stats kid can go (based on finances) and have had to forego much better schools b/c of money. It should not be this way.

I get that those of you not as well off like to dump on higher earners (UMC) to make yourselves feel better. But we've done everything right. Both coming from just above poverty line upbringings. The "American Dream" of work hard and good things flow from that is a bunch of horse sh-- when it comes to college admissions and sending your kids to the best school. The very wealthy get that opportunity. The poor get that opportunity. No one else.

You live under your means, you save starting at birth and when your income increases you save it vs changing your spending.

Will you be repeating this same ridiculous, tone-deaf message when the cost of elite schools exceeds $100K/year? $200K? Just save, sacrifice, drive an old car?

At what point in your view is it just not possible for donut hole families?

And why is this ok again?

The point is when you choose an expensive house, cars, vacations and lifestyle while others of us save and don't do those things on equal or less income, why do you feel entitled to tons of aid while we have to full pay?

It's all about choices. You chose to have the house, fancy cars, fancy vacations and fancy lifestyle and not save as much for college. No problem with that. As long as you don't now feel entitled to financial aid.
If I cannot afford a $80K car, I buy a $30K Honda/Toyota. I don't complain that it's not fair. Or I drive my current car another 2-3 years and actively save so that I can afford a nicer car (maybe a $50K). But I dont' complain that others can afford it and life isn't fair.
Same with a house or vacations. We lived our 20s paying off college debt and saving saving saving. Didn't have kids until we were 30+ so we could be financially sound. We were mid to late 30s before we took "fancy vacations". We still enjoyed life, just did it on a reasonable budget. But we knew plenty of people who spent spent spent. Maybe it was worth it for them. maybe not. I just know I don't regret getting a strong financial base when young, even if it meant forgoing "luxury items"

You save and forego luxury items and start your 529s early, or you expect your parents and ILs to foot the bill, even though you are a grown arse adult and probably resent them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Part of why it's gotten so insanely expensive to go to many colleges is because families that are UMC are expected to shoulder not just the cost of their own kid attending but all the kids that are attending for free or at low rates. I want those kids to go to college too but that should be funded from either government money or endowments not jacking up tuition on other families struggling to pay for school too.

💯

That’s the big secret of the schools that no one talks about. Who is really funding all of the need blind awards. It’s not the endowments. And it’s def not the government.

It’s the fact that tuition goes up every year and insane amount and families with over $300,000 in income are expected to be full pay. That is robbery from one group to satisfy the other.

Another +1

TO me the bigger issue is merit aid that takes away from the pot of money for financial need. If all that emrit aid went into the financial need jar, the income level you need to have to qualify for need based aid would be higher.

My nieces and nephews and cousins got 20 to 30k in merit aid for tons of schools. These are very well off kids whose parents can absolutely afford to be full pay. I'd rather see that money go to middle class kids, not kids whose parents make half a million a year.

Yup. It should all be need based.