Why are conservatives creepy? OH legislature votes to require genital inspections for kids’ sports

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

And no one has been discussing professional sports. PP is full of crap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

We do organize athletics by gender - whether we should is a discussion that cannot be had because no one is willing to engage at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

We do organize athletics by gender - whether we should is a discussion that cannot be had because no one is willing to engage at all.

Sorry, you are late to the party. This topic has been extensively discussed. You’re beating a dead horse.

We will never “agree” because Rs don’t do anything in good faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

We do organize athletics by gender - whether we should is a discussion that cannot be had because no one is willing to engage at all.

Sorry, you are late to the party. This topic has been extensively discussed. You’re beating a dead horse.

We will never “agree” because Rs don’t do anything in good faith.

On this thread, very few posters are arguing in good faith. And it's mostly liberals who are posting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

We do organize athletics by gender - whether we should is a discussion that cannot be had because no one is willing to engage at all.

Sorry, you are late to the party. This topic has been extensively discussed. You’re beating a dead horse.

We will never “agree” because Rs don’t do anything in good faith.

On this thread, very few posters are arguing in good faith. And it's mostly liberals who are posting.

Sorry, you are late to the party. If you had spent any time here you’d realize that 99.9999% of the time it’s the Rs.

Hang around and you’ll see. Or go read any other thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

We do organize athletics by gender - whether we should is a discussion that cannot be had because no one is willing to engage at all.

Sorry, you are late to the party. This topic has been extensively discussed. You’re beating a dead horse.

We will never “agree” because Rs don’t do anything in good faith.

On this thread, very few posters are arguing in good faith. And it's mostly liberals who are posting.

Sorry, you are late to the party. If you had spent any time here you’d realize that 99.9999% of the time it’s the Rs.

Hang around and you’ll see. Or go read any other thread.

I thought we were talking about this thread. And I agree with PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

We do organize athletics by gender - whether we should is a discussion that cannot be had because no one is willing to engage at all.

Sorry, you are late to the party. This topic has been extensively discussed. You’re beating a dead horse.

We will never “agree” because Rs don’t do anything in good faith.

On this thread, very few posters are arguing in good faith. And it's mostly liberals who are posting.

Sorry, you are late to the party. If you had spent any time here you’d realize that 99.9999% of the time it’s the Rs.

Hang around and you’ll see. Or go read any other thread.

I thought we were talking about this thread. And I agree with PP.

No, we are discussing Ds/Rs and conservatives/liberals “coming together to have tough conversations” about transgender topics.

Try to keep up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

We do organize athletics by gender - whether we should is a discussion that cannot be had because no one is willing to engage at all.

Sorry, you are late to the party. This topic has been extensively discussed. You’re beating a dead horse.

We will never “agree” because Rs don’t do anything in good faith.

On this thread, very few posters are arguing in good faith. And it's mostly liberals who are posting.

Sorry, you are late to the party. If you had spent any time here you’d realize that 99.9999% of the time it’s the Rs.

Hang around and you’ll see. Or go read any other thread.

I thought we were talking about this thread. And I agree with PP.

No, we are discussing Ds/Rs and conservatives/liberals “coming together to have tough conversations” about transgender topics.

Try to keep up.

Read the bolded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

We do organize athletics by gender - whether we should is a discussion that cannot be had because no one is willing to engage at all.

Sorry, you are late to the party. This topic has been extensively discussed. You’re beating a dead horse.

We will never “agree” because Rs don’t do anything in good faith.

On this thread, very few posters are arguing in good faith. And it's mostly liberals who are posting.

Sorry, you are late to the party. If you had spent any time here you’d realize that 99.9999% of the time it’s the Rs.

Hang around and you’ll see. Or go read any other thread.

I thought we were talking about this thread. And I agree with PP.

No, we are discussing Ds/Rs and conservatives/liberals “coming together to have tough conversations” about transgender topics.

Try to keep up.

+1

I don’t think that, past puberty, transwomen who went through puberty as males should be playing with women. It’s a ridiculously unfair advantage that peels off a few more spots for elite female athletes.

But this isn’t that. Republicans hate women and Republicans hate transpeople. They’re going after birth control and abortion, bodily autonomy and the basic notion of women as full citizens. They oppose Title IX. In various states they are blocking transpeople’s ability to transition and for parents of minor trans children to even work with doctors. The GOP has a documented problem with pedophilia in its midst.

Here, they are forcing girls to undergo a medical examination of their genitals to prove that they’re “real girls,” and while Republicans are quick to dismiss the notion that it will require an internal examination, I’m not. The GOP hates women. They have no issue with rape of a minor digitally or by an instrument (as was the case with the forced internal ultrasound in Virginia).

So there’s no having a conversation with these people. They just call names, call us “hysterical.” But no one actually believes that regressives care about women or women athletes or bodily autonomy or anything else and I’m appalled at all the dodos who are going along with their faux respectability politics crap and dismissing everyone else who has actually paid attention to what the GOP does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

We do organize athletics by gender - whether we should is a discussion that cannot be had because no one is willing to engage at all.

Sorry, you are late to the party. This topic has been extensively discussed. You’re beating a dead horse.

We will never “agree” because Rs don’t do anything in good faith.

On this thread, very few posters are arguing in good faith. And it's mostly liberals who are posting.

Sorry, you are late to the party. If you had spent any time here you’d realize that 99.9999% of the time it’s the Rs.

Hang around and you’ll see. Or go read any other thread.

I thought we were talking about this thread. And I agree with PP.

No, we are discussing Ds/Rs and conservatives/liberals “coming together to have tough conversations” about transgender topics.

Try to keep up.

+1

I don’t think that, past puberty, transwomen who went through puberty as males should be playing with women. It’s a ridiculously unfair advantage that peels off a few more spots for elite female athletes.

But this isn’t that. Republicans hate women and Republicans hate transpeople. They’re going after birth control and abortion, bodily autonomy and the basic notion of women as full citizens. They oppose Title IX. In various states they are blocking transpeople’s ability to transition and for parents of minor trans children to even work with doctors. The GOP has a documented problem with pedophilia in its midst.

Here, they are forcing girls to undergo a medical examination of their genitals to prove that they’re “real girls,” and while Republicans are quick to dismiss the notion that it will require an internal examination, I’m not. The GOP hates women. They have no issue with rape of a minor digitally or by an instrument (as was the case with the forced internal ultrasound in Virginia).

So there’s no having a conversation with these people. They just call names, call us “hysterical.” But no one actually believes that regressives care about women or women athletes or bodily autonomy or anything else and I’m appalled at all the dodos who are going along with their faux respectability politics crap and dismissing everyone else who has actually paid attention to what the GOP does.

So there’s no evidence that this will happen, but you’re going to go on a tirade because you’re still convinced it might?

[Anonymous]

Didn't Trump inspect the Miss Teen USA pageants? Trumpers were fine with that, so this is no surprise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Didn't Trump inspect the Miss Teen USA pageants? Trumpers were fine with that, so this is no surprise.

It's consistent with the current GOP brand and moral platform right now, so no surprises here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

We do organize athletics by gender - whether we should is a discussion that cannot be had because no one is willing to engage at all.

Sorry, you are late to the party. This topic has been extensively discussed. You’re beating a dead horse.

We will never “agree” because Rs don’t do anything in good faith.

On this thread, very few posters are arguing in good faith. And it's mostly liberals who are posting.

Sorry, you are late to the party. If you had spent any time here you’d realize that 99.9999% of the time it’s the Rs.

Hang around and you’ll see. Or go read any other thread.

I thought we were talking about this thread. And I agree with PP.

No, we are discussing Ds/Rs and conservatives/liberals “coming together to have tough conversations” about transgender topics.

Try to keep up.

Read the bolded.

Ok. Read the blue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

We do organize athletics by gender - whether we should is a discussion that cannot be had because no one is willing to engage at all.

Sorry, you are late to the party. This topic has been extensively discussed. You’re beating a dead horse.

We will never “agree” because Rs don’t do anything in good faith.

On this thread, very few posters are arguing in good faith. And it's mostly liberals who are posting.

Sorry, you are late to the party. If you had spent any time here you’d realize that 99.9999% of the time it’s the Rs.

Hang around and you’ll see. Or go read any other thread.

I thought we were talking about this thread. And I agree with PP.

No, we are discussing Ds/Rs and conservatives/liberals “coming together to have tough conversations” about transgender topics.

Try to keep up.

+1

I don’t think that, past puberty, transwomen who went through puberty as males should be playing with women. It’s a ridiculously unfair advantage that peels off a few more spots for elite female athletes.

But this isn’t that. Republicans hate women and Republicans hate transpeople. They’re going after birth control and abortion, bodily autonomy and the basic notion of women as full citizens. They oppose Title IX. In various states they are blocking transpeople’s ability to transition and for parents of minor trans children to even work with doctors. The GOP has a documented problem with pedophilia in its midst.

Here, they are forcing girls to undergo a medical examination of their genitals to prove that they’re “real girls,” and while Republicans are quick to dismiss the notion that it will require an internal examination, I’m not. The GOP hates women. They have no issue with rape of a minor digitally or by an instrument (as was the case with the forced internal ultrasound in Virginia).

So there’s no having a conversation with these people. They just call names, call us “hysterical.” But no one actually believes that regressives care about women or women athletes or bodily autonomy or anything else and I’m appalled at all the dodos who are going along with their faux respectability politics crap and dismissing everyone else who has actually paid attention to what the GOP does.

But republicans are trying to prevent children from transitioning at all and having access to medical care. They’re forcing kids to go through puberty to maintain a gender type they don’t identify as, then saying because they went through puberty and look like the gender they don’t identify as, they should be treated like that gender forever because they look that way and can’t pass for another gender.

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Anonymous wrote:People complain about conservative disinformation but the liberal disinformation on this thread is insane. An internal pelvic exam on a prepubescent girl would be done in the OR under general anaesthesia—so don’t worry, it’s not something your pediatrician is going to be doing at the office so your kid can play volleyball.

For those crowing about why don’t boys get genital exams to play sports—A hernia check is a pretty standard part of a boys sports physical so they already do.

To comply with this law, the pediatrician would just have to glance at the notes from your kids last well child visit where they most likely commented on the genitalia, then sign the damn form. For children who have ambiguous genitalia, then more investigation (e.g. an ultrasound and labs) is medically indicated so has most likely already been done. This bill would only present a hurdle to participation among kids who want to play on a team that doesn’t align with their biologic sex.

Or, alternatively you can just let kids play sports and their families cheer them on and stop bullying them. Seems easier than the Rube Goldberg machine you just described. Do you even hear yourself?

What Rube Goldberg machine? I was simply countering the disinformation in this thread’s title that girls are going to have forced internal pelvic exams in order to play sports. Realistically, the only kids that will be affected by this bill are trans kids and a very small number of kids with disorders of sexual development.

For the record I am opposed to this bill. I think trans kids participation in sports is a complex issue that requires nuance, which bills like this obviously don’t allow for. But I also think it is totally disingenuous and counter-productive for liberals to spread mass hysteria that this bill is going to force girls to have unnecessary genital exams, which it definitely will not.

Maybe that’s the way to win elections. It works for the Rs. They lie constantly.

(FWIW - I haven’t said they are forcing genital exams)

Absolutely republicans do it too. And it creates a culture where the two sides talk past each other about fake moral panics, while unable to come together to have tough conversations about admittedly difficult issues (see also: CRT). I think trans kids in sports is a difficult issue because it places two ideals at odds—inclusion of kids to play in the category they feel most comfortable in, versus fairness to female athletes who have an enormous physical disadvantage against male athletes after puberty. Republican efforts to ban all trans boys from girls sports, including pre-puberty when they have no physical advantage, is cruel. But some liberals’ insistence that trans woman be fully included in all professional women’s sports, even if a physical advantage can be demonstrated or inferred, seems deeply unfair to female athletes who have dedicated their lives to sports. The problem right now is we can’t have a conversation about how to weigh inclusion with fairness/safety if both sides are putting their hands over their ears and yelling “Groomer” or “Transphobe” at the other side.

Example of Ds insisting “that trans women be fully included in all professional women’s sports”?

Is that not the position of the ACLU and other left leaning organizations? Can you imagine a democratic group arguing against full trans woman participation?

ACLU isn’t “left leaning” and “other left leaning organizations” aren’t the Democrats.

On the other hand you literally have elected Republican lawmakers mandating rape of children to satisfy their weirdo beliefs.

You are putting words in my mouth. I said “some liberals’”, not “the democrats”.

Please provide an example of something the ACLU said or did in the last year that is not left leaning.

Also please provide an example of a liberal/left-leaning group arguing against full trans woman participation in womens sports.

Why are you comparing elected Rs who have already *passed legislation* banning transgender athletes to … the ACLU?

No “both sides” here.

Disingenuous.

It's bizarre that you're trying to say that the Dems and all liberals do not say that all trans girls belong in the girls locker room and on the girls team. So strange.

This whole thread is a disaster of lies and misdirection and "But actually!"

Stop it, both of you.

Transgender athletes have never been “banned” from athletics. They’re allowed to compete with other athletes who are the same biological sex. We don’t organize athletics by gender; we organize them by biological sex.

There are liberal Democrats who don’t think trans girls belong in girls’ locker rooms and trans women don’t belong in women’s prisons. I know because I’m one of them.

Do you know who Lia Thomas is?

We do organize athletics by gender - whether we should is a discussion that cannot be had because no one is willing to engage at all.

Sorry, you are late to the party. This topic has been extensively discussed. You’re beating a dead horse.

We will never “agree” because Rs don’t do anything in good faith.

On this thread, very few posters are arguing in good faith. And it's mostly liberals who are posting.

Sorry, you are late to the party. If you had spent any time here you’d realize that 99.9999% of the time it’s the Rs.

Hang around and you’ll see. Or go read any other thread.

I thought we were talking about this thread. And I agree with PP.

No, we are discussing Ds/Rs and conservatives/liberals “coming together to have tough conversations” about transgender topics.

Try to keep up.

+1

I don’t think that, past puberty, transwomen who went through puberty as males should be playing with women. It’s a ridiculously unfair advantage that peels off a few more spots for elite female athletes.

But this isn’t that. Republicans hate women and Republicans hate transpeople. They’re going after birth control and abortion, bodily autonomy and the basic notion of women as full citizens. They oppose Title IX. In various states they are blocking transpeople’s ability to transition and for parents of minor trans children to even work with doctors. The GOP has a documented problem with pedophilia in its midst.

Here, they are forcing girls to undergo a medical examination of their genitals to prove that they’re “real girls,” and while Republicans are quick to dismiss the notion that it will require an internal examination, I’m not. The GOP hates women. They have no issue with rape of a minor digitally or by an instrument (as was the case with the forced internal ultrasound in Virginia).

So there’s no having a conversation with these people. They just call names, call us “hysterical.” But no one actually believes that regressives care about women or women athletes or bodily autonomy or anything else and I’m appalled at all the dodos who are going along with their faux respectability politics crap and dismissing everyone else who has actually paid attention to what the GOP does.

But republicans are trying to prevent children from transitioning at all and having access to medical care. They’re forcing kids to go through puberty to maintain a gender type they don’t identify as, then saying because they went through puberty and look like the gender they don’t identify as, they should be treated like that gender forever because they look that way and can’t pass for another gender.

And the reverse is true too, that democrats are trying to force children to transition and to prevent puberty and start hormones (which will permanently reduce libido and fertility)/top surgery before 18.

These are opposing positions. Who is right? What is right?