PDA Autism?

[Anonymous]

Does anyone have experience with Pathological Demand Avoidance?

https://childmind.org/article/pathological-demand-avoidance-in-kids/#:~:text=Pathological%20demand%20avoidance%20(PDA)%20is,seen%20in%20people%20with%20autism

DD 6 is really struggling right now with transitions, being asked to do simple things like brush teeth, put on shoes etc. She does not have an autism DX but does have a genetic DX with many overlaps. I am not sure her behavior is fully PDA but it seems to share many features, and she behaves just fine at school. She definitely has some anxiety going on and is beginning work with a psychologist at school.

If you have experience with PDA, how did you know it was PDA?

[Anonymous]

This sounds just like my kiddo with autism who also experiences anxiety. Regardless of the label, the doctor's advice is sound. When you show that you can be collaborative and flexible rather than bossy and confrontational, she'll learn to work with you.

[Anonymous]

Our DC has said these things: My legs don't work, I can't do it, I can't find it (places hand next to object). No. I'll do it later. You can do it. When asked to go brush teeth or get shoes on, he would fall down on the floor.

He used to go under the chair or sit at the edge of the room in preschool or at Sunday School. He would turtle or mushroom when asked to go somewhere or do something (even something like come to the couch for a story).

He has labile mood swings, from very happy to furious back to very happy, or to morose and back (Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde). He hates losing and couldn't play board games until he was older. He wants to be in charge of games and will change the rules in order to win or to not lose.

He really doesn't understand, or does understand and doesn't like, hierarchy.

He wants novelty and routine and likes to have a routine to push back against. He has a lot of anxiety, is afraid of the dark, many things, gets stomach aches and headaches. He hates to be told what to do and transitions are really hard, he fights with his brother, fights with us DH and I a lot although we've changed our language, expectations, parenting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our DC has said these things: My legs don't work, I can't do it, I can't find it (places hand next to object). No. I'll do it later. You can do it. When asked to go brush teeth or get shoes on, he would fall down on the floor.

He used to go under the chair or sit at the edge of the room in preschool or at Sunday School. He would turtle or mushroom when asked to go somewhere or do something (even something like come to the couch for a story).

He has labile mood swings, from very happy to furious back to very happy, or to morose and back (Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde). He hates losing and couldn't play board games until he was older. He wants to be in charge of games and will change the rules in order to win or to not lose.

He really doesn't understand, or does understand and doesn't like, hierarchy.

He wants novelty and routine and likes to have a routine to push back against. He has a lot of anxiety, is afraid of the dark, many things, gets stomach aches and headaches. He hates to be told what to do and transitions are really hard, he fights with his brother, fights with us DH and I a lot although we've changed our language, expectations, parenting.

Thanks for this, it's really helpful. Can you share how you changed your language and/or expectations/parenting?

She has some of what you describe like saying she can't walk when it's time for bed, or refusing to get up and come across the room to do something she even enjoys doing. But she doesn't struggle with hierarchy (no problems in school, with therapists, lessons etc). No problems with game-planning (although she might have a rigid idea for how to play).

She does have mood swings - huge outbursts and then happy recoveries. We are beginning to have a lot of fights, so trying to understand it since it's all fairly new.

[Anonymous]

People keep trying to make pda happen but in its current form it is so weird and honestly toxic. If you join any of the parent groups you’ll see they all use it as an excuse to literally let their kid avoid everything based on this theory - you have kids not going to school ever, not leaving the house etc etc. needs better definition

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People keep trying to make pda happen but in its current form it is so weird and honestly toxic. If you join any of the parent groups you’ll see they all use it as an excuse to literally let their kid avoid everything based on this theory - you have kids not going to school ever, not leaving the house etc etc. needs better definition

This is an extreme exaggeration and not the experience of most families with PDA children. No one is trying ‘make PDA happen’- such a weird statement.

OP, check out the PDA Society of North America- lots of good resources and information can be found on their website.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People keep trying to make pda happen but in its current form it is so weird and honestly toxic. If you join any of the parent groups you’ll see they all use it as an excuse to literally let their kid avoid everything based on this theory - you have kids not going to school ever, not leaving the house etc etc. needs better definition

14:14 here. We have an official ASD and PDA diagnosis, also ADHD and GAD and a couple others too. I think our DC has PDA but I agree with you that many people on some of the support forums are not being helped by those forums. Fwiw, I have found the label helpful and useful. I think the definition is fine - it covers the children that it covers.

What we have changed, and found has helped, in no particular order, has been reframing language to be more descriptive rather than directive, to slow down and give more processing time, to use gestures where possible, to use more words rather than fewer (this is the opposite of what works for most children including our other children). And to not take any of it personally (sometimes easier said than done).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People keep trying to make pda happen but in its current form it is so weird and honestly toxic. If you join any of the parent groups you’ll see they all use it as an excuse to literally let their kid avoid everything based on this theory - you have kids not going to school ever, not leaving the house etc etc. needs better definition

14:14 here. We have an official ASD and PDA diagnosis, also ADHD and GAD and a couple others too. I think our DC has PDA but I agree with you that many people on some of the support forums are not being helped by those forums. Fwiw, I have found the label helpful and useful. I think the definition is fine - it covers the children that it covers.

What we have changed, and found has helped, in no particular order, has been reframing language to be more descriptive rather than directive, to slow down and give more processing time, to use gestures where possible, to use more words rather than fewer (this is the opposite of what works for most children including our other children). And to not take any of it personally (sometimes easier said than done).

Can you give an example of being more “descriptive” than “directive”? For example if you’re asking child to do a simple task (put shoes on and get in car)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People keep trying to make pda happen but in its current form it is so weird and honestly toxic. If you join any of the parent groups you’ll see they all use it as an excuse to literally let their kid avoid everything based on this theory - you have kids not going to school ever, not leaving the house etc etc. needs better definition

14:14 here. We have an official ASD and PDA diagnosis, also ADHD and GAD and a couple others too. I think our DC has PDA but I agree with you that many people on some of the support forums are not being helped by those forums. Fwiw, I have found the label helpful and useful. I think the definition is fine - it covers the children that it covers.

What we have changed, and found has helped, in no particular order, has been reframing language to be more descriptive rather than directive, to slow down and give more processing time, to use gestures where possible, to use more words rather than fewer (this is the opposite of what works for most children including our other children). And to not take any of it personally (sometimes easier said than done).

Can you give an example of being more “descriptive” than “directive”? For example if you’re asking child to do a simple task (put shoes on and get in car)?

"Your shoes are by the door [or wherever], it's chilly so a coat might be a good idea."

[Anonymous]

My kid has some of the PDA traits. However, I’ve recently moved towards much more authoritative with him and he’s behaving better. But I approach it like….I’ll turn the wifi on when you’ve done xyz. Avoiding negotiation is so key at least if it’s reactive negotiation.

[Anonymous]

Some great articles here. More in depth than some I have found. https://lifewithpda.com

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People keep trying to make pda happen but in its current form it is so weird and honestly toxic. If you join any of the parent groups you’ll see they all use it as an excuse to literally let their kid avoid everything based on this theory - you have kids not going to school ever, not leaving the house etc etc. needs better definition

We know a family who has labeled their child this without ever having properly parented them. They never say no to the child, let them get out of any uncomfortable situation. I’m not even a very strict parent and I see how much damage they’ve done to them. We are close neighbors and have been for years and have known the kid since they were very small. I feel sad for the family. While I do assume that this diagnosis does exist for some, I don’t think it’s the case for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People keep trying to make pda happen but in its current form it is so weird and honestly toxic. If you join any of the parent groups you’ll see they all use it as an excuse to literally let their kid avoid everything based on this theory - you have kids not going to school ever, not leaving the house etc etc. needs better definition

We know a family who has labeled their child this without ever having properly parented them. They never say no to the child, let them get out of any uncomfortable situation. I’m not even a very strict parent and I see how much damage they’ve done to them. We are close neighbors and have been for years and have known the kid since they were very small. I feel sad for the family. While I do assume that this diagnosis does exist for some, I don’t think it’s the case for them.

You are not an expert, you only have an opinion. You have no idea what people are dealing with behind closed doors. I'm sure people would say similar things about your SN child (assuming you are not just trolling)

[Anonymous]

New poster, but there are a couple professionals I trust (a behavioral pediatrician and a psychiatrist) who are very familiar with PDA type traits but are reluctant to consider it a helpful diagnosis and don't think it should be in the DSM.

regardless, it can be helpful to read about it and pick up behavioral parenting tips like people listed above.

For some kids, having a choice is helpful. Not "please put on your shoes" but like pp suggests "your shoes are by the door. Do you want to put them on yourself or do you want help?"

Or for older children "Dinner is at 6pm. Do you want to unload the dishwasher and set the table now or set an alarm to do it at 5:45 or sometime in between?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:New poster, but there are a couple professionals I trust (a behavioral pediatrician and a psychiatrist) who are very familiar with PDA type traits but are reluctant to consider it a helpful diagnosis and don't think it should be in the DSM.

regardless, it can be helpful to read about it and pick up behavioral parenting tips like people listed above.

For some kids, having a choice is helpful. Not "please put on your shoes" but like pp suggests "your shoes are by the door. Do you want to put them on yourself or do you want help?"

Or for older children "Dinner is at 6pm. Do you want to unload the dishwasher and set the table now or set an alarm to do it at 5:45 or sometime in between?"

My experience with a PDA child is that many of the typical parenting tricks don't work for her. Choices are a prime example. All the parenting books say to give your child choices, but for my PDA kid, choices are just another demand that you're placing on her and makes her more stressed.