TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

This is factually inaccurate and relies on the assertion that once the semifinalist pool was selected, the exam scores and GPA were not considered.

The facts, shared by the Admissions Office at their information sessions, are that there was a huge delta between the mean exams scores of the semifinalist pool and the mean exam scores of the eventual offer pools. And the biggest delta was on the Quant-Q, which is the purported "secured" exam that was compromised by the actions of students at Curie Learning Centers.

It wasn't the essays or the teacher recs keeping the Twain kids out and the Carson and Stone Hill kids in. It was the exam scores. Full stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

I disagree in the strongest possible terms with a merit lottery but agree completely with the idea of the admissions exams being deeply problematic - especially given that they were a firm gatekeeper to the semifinalist pool and that access to that pool was determined based on percentile score.

Objectivity in any selection process results in overselection for the metrics being emphasized and a homogenization of the selected population.

The answer is a genuinely holistic selection process with a much larger set of inputs and an open acknowledgement of the inherent (and peer-reviewed) value of socioeconomic and experiential diversity in elite academic environments. Oh, and full AAP services at every middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

If you can't isolate out that every other school seems to be recovering while TJ is getting worse, then I think you are probably being deliberately ignorant or just incapable of understanding the argument.

Speaking of being deliberately ignorant the data states otherwise. Stop with the gaslighting already and accept that TJ was impacted like other schools and like experts have stated it will take a decade or more to recover.

I don't know who you think you are fooling. If you can't look at the testing data published by the virginia department of education and suss out that everybody else was recovering from covid between 2021 and 2022 while TJ was deteriorating then either you are stupid or you think the rest of the world is.

14:00 here again, who posted SOL data. There are two data points that you are pointing to, the difference between 2021 and 2022 in Algebra I and Geometry, that you are using to show that TJ is declining. You are excluding the difference between 2022 and 2023 for Algebra I, Algebra II, and Geometry, that shows flat or increasing rates of Pass Advanced, as well as some pre-pandemic drops in Pass Advanced scores at TJ, such as Algebra I and Geometry.

There is data but it is not clear and does not show that the post-admissions change cohort is substandard and getting worse. All that the data shows is learning loss post-pandemic. Some schools seem to have recovered - especially the schools such as Yorktown that had less to go.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

If you can't isolate out that every other school seems to be recovering while TJ is getting worse, then I think you are probably being deliberately ignorant or just incapable of understanding the argument.

You want this data to show that other schools are improving post-pandemic and that TJ, because the admissions changes, is getting worse. But it doesn't show that. Learning loss is clear (except for reading) but there's no dividing line between before-admissions-changes and after-admissions-changes. There's just not enough data to say. But whether the newer classes are "lesser" than previous classes, they are still doing significantly better post-pandemic than other schools. Here is all of the SOL data:

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
TJ:
English Reading 45 45 59 100 95 94
Writing 97 95 97 96
VA & US History 94 57 56
World History I 88 88 100 60 59
World History II 85 82 78 53 28
Algebra I 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry 67 83 63 73 42 41
Biology 80 82 86 66 53 58
Chemistry 87 91 94 52
Earth Science 47 47 62

Langley:
English Reading 41 12 21 18 56 59
Writing 61 54 52 37
VA & US History 55 33 17 12
World History I 40 41 49
World History II 55 32 22 10
Algebra I 5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry 31 29 34 6 24 21
Biology 42 32 41 28 37 31
Chemistry 39 42 41 8 16 7
Earth Science 4 3 10 11

Do you see how TJ scores went down from the 2020/2021 school year to the 2021/2022 school year?
Do you see how Langley scores went up from the 2020/2021 school year to the 2021/2022 school year?

In fact, most schools saw increases between 2020/2021 to 2021/2022. Almost all schools were recovering from covid and you would expect TJ would also recover from covid but they didn't, they got worse and mostly stayed worse.

It's crazy that you are incapable of seeing this. This is epic levels of confirmation bias.

“Most schools” - do you mean beyond the two wealthiest schools?

It’s crazy that you keep making claims and then don’t back them up.

I literally linked all the data from all the schools in virginia.

I specifically compared TJ with two of the school pyramids that sent the most students to TJ.
If you are asking me to keep digging until I prove myself wrong then I don't think that is possible because I am not wrong.

If you think I am cherry picking, please feel free to look at the data yourself but the fact that the data has been offered for weeks and linked at least half a dozen times and you still say things like this makes it clear you haven't looked at the data and probably have no interest in data.

Your data backs up your claims. They are just being willfully ignorant trying to push the false narrative in the hope of returning the gamed process that favored wealthy schools.

What gamed process that favors wealthy schools?
If wealth is driving tj admissions, then why are the students disproportionately asian instead of being disproportionately white?
Why do predominantly asian schools like carson (with 16% FRM) send more students to tj than predominantly white schools like cooper (with 4% FARM)?

TJ was once overwhelmingly white. Then the asians came and crowded everyone out. Then the white people decided that TJ needed diversity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

This is factually inaccurate and relies on the assertion that once the semifinalist pool was selected, the exam scores and GPA were not considered.

The facts, shared by the Admissions Office at their information sessions, are that there was a huge delta between the mean exams scores of the semifinalist pool and the mean exam scores of the eventual offer pools. And the biggest delta was on the Quant-Q, which is the purported "secured" exam that was compromised by the actions of students at Curie Learning Centers.

It wasn't the essays or the teacher recs keeping the Twain kids out and the Carson and Stone Hill kids in. It was the exam scores. Full stop.

Do you have a cite for that?
Because at one time test scores were only 20% of the decision to pull kids out of the pool.
Are you saying they increased the weighting on test scores when they made it more holistic to increase diversity in 2013?
Adding full stop to a sentence doesn't make your speculations any more convincing without a cite of some sort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

I disagree in the strongest possible terms with a merit lottery but agree completely with the idea of the admissions exams being deeply problematic - especially given that they were a firm gatekeeper to the semifinalist pool and that access to that pool was determined based on percentile score.

Objectivity in any selection process results in overselection for the metrics being emphasized and a homogenization of the selected population.

The answer is a genuinely holistic selection process with a much larger set of inputs and an open acknowledgement of the inherent (and peer-reviewed) value of socioeconomic and experiential diversity in elite academic environments. Oh, and full AAP services at every middle school.

If you are trying to select for smart students then why is over-selecting for smart students a bad thing?
Why is having a homogeneously smart student body a bad thing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

If that were all true then test scores wouldn't be the single best predictor of college performance.

If using test scores as a selection tool were the height of foolishness then why do so many countries use a single test to determine college admissions?

But I am open to the idea of using exactly the method you propose as long as there is a test involved so we can measure actual performance against tested ability.

Time and time again we have seen that tested ability is a far superior measuring tool than subjective judgements about "grit and determination"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

I disagree in the strongest possible terms with a merit lottery but agree completely with the idea of the admissions exams being deeply problematic - especially given that they were a firm gatekeeper to the semifinalist pool and that access to that pool was determined based on percentile score.

Objectivity in any selection process results in overselection for the metrics being emphasized and a homogenization of the selected population.

The answer is a genuinely holistic selection process with a much larger set of inputs and an open acknowledgement of the inherent (and peer-reviewed) value of socioeconomic and experiential diversity in elite academic environments. Oh, and full AAP services at every middle school.

You are so right!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

If that were all true then test scores wouldn't be the single best predictor of college performance.

If using test scores as a selection tool were the height of foolishness then why do so many countries use a single test to determine college admissions?

But I am open to the idea of using exactly the method you propose as long as there is a test involved so we can measure actual performance against tested ability.

Time and time again we have seen that tested ability is a far superior measuring tool than subjective judgements about "grit and determination"

Although I've heard this claim about test scores many times, colleges rely more on GPA so have to wonder about its accuracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

If you can't isolate out that every other school seems to be recovering while TJ is getting worse, then I think you are probably being deliberately ignorant or just incapable of understanding the argument.

Speaking of being deliberately ignorant the data states otherwise. Stop with the gaslighting already and accept that TJ was impacted like other schools and like experts have stated it will take a decade or more to recover.

I don't know who you think you are fooling. If you can't look at the testing data published by the virginia department of education and suss out that everybody else was recovering from covid between 2021 and 2022 while TJ was deteriorating then either you are stupid or you think the rest of the world is.

14:00 here again, who posted SOL data. There are two data points that you are pointing to, the difference between 2021 and 2022 in Algebra I and Geometry, that you are using to show that TJ is declining. You are excluding the difference between 2022 and 2023 for Algebra I, Algebra II, and Geometry, that shows flat or increasing rates of Pass Advanced, as well as some pre-pandemic drops in Pass Advanced scores at TJ, such as Algebra I and Geometry.

Of course the numbers are flat or increasing between 2022 and 2023. Both those classes were admitted under the new system and there is going to be some reversion to pre-pandemic performance.
Once again, if you think I am cherrypicking. Please feel free to post an exhaustive comparison but I cannot find a single school that had across the board drops in advance SOL between 2021 and 2022 like TJ did.

There is data but it is not clear and does not show that the post-admissions change cohort is substandard and getting worse. All that the data shows is learning loss post-pandemic. Some schools seem to have recovered - especially the schools such as Yorktown that had less to go.

Who said the admits are getting worse. The admits under the new system are not getting worse every year. They are admitted under the new system so they are on average inferior to the students selected under the old system but not inferior with respect top each other.
The ONLY school that had across the board losses between 2021 and 2022 (when the new admissions system was implemented) was TJ.
Almost every other school showed recovery between 2021 and 2022.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

If you can't isolate out that every other school seems to be recovering while TJ is getting worse, then I think you are probably being deliberately ignorant or just incapable of understanding the argument.

Speaking of being deliberately ignorant the data states otherwise. Stop with the gaslighting already and accept that TJ was impacted like other schools and like experts have stated it will take a decade or more to recover.

I don't know who you think you are fooling. If you can't look at the testing data published by the virginia department of education and suss out that everybody else was recovering from covid between 2021 and 2022 while TJ was deteriorating then either you are stupid or you think the rest of the world is.

14:00 here again, who posted SOL data. There are two data points that you are pointing to, the difference between 2021 and 2022 in Algebra I and Geometry, that you are using to show that TJ is declining. You are excluding the difference between 2022 and 2023 for Algebra I, Algebra II, and Geometry, that shows flat or increasing rates of Pass Advanced, as well as some pre-pandemic drops in Pass Advanced scores at TJ, such as Algebra I and Geometry.

There is data but it is not clear and does not show that the post-admissions change cohort is substandard and getting worse. All that the data shows is learning loss post-pandemic. Some schools seem to have recovered - especially the schools such as Yorktown that had less to go.

Why would you look at the fairly non-existent difference between 2022 and 2023 and decide that this is somehow relevant to the conversation when the admissions change happened between 2021 and 2022?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

If that were all true then test scores wouldn't be the single best predictor of college performance.

If using test scores as a selection tool were the height of foolishness then why do so many countries use a single test to determine college admissions?

But I am open to the idea of using exactly the method you propose as long as there is a test involved so we can measure actual performance against tested ability.

Time and time again we have seen that tested ability is a far superior measuring tool than subjective judgements about "grit and determination"

Although I've heard this claim about test scores many times, colleges rely more on GPA so have to wonder about its accuracy.

Why wonder when we have peer reviewed studies?

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

But people who spend $20k on test prep to buy the test answers expect results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

No, it is not the fairest way to determine who should (or would should, in your words) attend the most rigorous schools.

Yes, it is true that exams, on some level, are a snapshot of one's command of content. That is the best thing going for them, and even that is a flawed metric because it is just that - a snapshot. It shows no growth, it shows no trend, and it shows no grit or determination.

Whether you all want to admit it, test taking is a skill that can be taught and developed and has tremendous relevance on standardized exams. And it literally has only one value - getting people into elite schools. Test taking ability contributes nothing at all to society and has no other impact whatsoever in a student's life.

Overselecting for test taking ability is just silly, but it's exactly what happens when an admissions exam is used as a gatekeeper. There is no real-world problem that is solved, or even helped, by test-taking ability, and so for us to emphasize it in selection processes is the height of foolishness.

If that were all true then test scores wouldn't be the single best predictor of college performance.

If using test scores as a selection tool were the height of foolishness then why do so many countries use a single test to determine college admissions?

But I am open to the idea of using exactly the method you propose as long as there is a test involved so we can measure actual performance against tested ability.

Time and time again we have seen that tested ability is a far superior measuring tool than subjective judgements about "grit and determination"

Although I've heard this claim about test scores many times, colleges rely more on GPA so have to wonder about its accuracy.

Why wonder when we have peer reviewed studies?

https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/SAT_ACT_on_Grades.pdf

And yet colleges rely more heavily on GPA which factors rigor than on test scores.