TJ Falls to 14th in the Nation Per US News

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

You are spot on! Just listing a bunch of random schools tells us less than using similar schools like your comparison.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

Well you are either lying or stupid.
Frankly, I am starting to lean more towards you being stupid at this point.
I mean, are you looking at your own numbers?
Do you understand the (fairly simple) argument being made here?
The argument doesn't rely on advance pass SOLs returning to pre-pandemic levels at any school.
The argument is that every other school saw improvements in advance pass rates on their SOLs between 2021 and 2022. TJ is about the only school that saw across the board reductions in Advance pass SOLs between 2021 and 2022.

In almost every case the advance pass rates are higher in 2022 and 2023 than they were in 2021 with TJ (and lake Braddock algebra 2 and chemistry) being the only exceptions.

Noone is saying that there is no effect from covid but why is almost everyone recovering after COVID while TJ seems to be getting worse?

I don't know how many different ways i can say this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

If you can't isolate out that every other school seems to be recovering while TJ is getting worse, then I think you are probably being deliberately ignorant or just incapable of understanding the argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

If you can't isolate out that every other school seems to be recovering while TJ is getting worse, then I think you are probably being deliberately ignorant or just incapable of understanding the argument.

You want this data to show that other schools are improving post-pandemic and that TJ, because the admissions changes, is getting worse. But it doesn't show that. Learning loss is clear (except for reading) but there's no dividing line between before-admissions-changes and after-admissions-changes. There's just not enough data to say. But whether the newer classes are "lesser" than previous classes, they are still doing significantly better post-pandemic than other schools. Here is all of the SOL data:

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
TJ:
English Reading 45 45 59 100 95 94
Writing 97 95 97 96
VA & US History 94 57 56
World History I 88 88 100 60 59
World History II 85 82 78 53 28
Algebra I 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry 67 83 63 73 42 41
Biology 80 82 86 66 53 58
Chemistry 87 91 94 52
Earth Science 47 47 62

Langley:
English Reading 41 12 21 18 56 59
Writing 61 54 52 37
VA & US History 55 33 17 12
World History I 40 41 49
World History II 55 32 22 10
Algebra I 5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry 31 29 34 6 24 21
Biology 42 32 41 28 37 31
Chemistry 39 42 41 8 16 7
Earth Science 4 3 10 11

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

If you can't isolate out that every other school seems to be recovering while TJ is getting worse, then I think you are probably being deliberately ignorant or just incapable of understanding the argument.

You want this data to show that other schools are improving post-pandemic and that TJ, because the admissions changes, is getting worse. But it doesn't show that. Learning loss is clear (except for reading) but there's no dividing line between before-admissions-changes and after-admissions-changes. There's just not enough data to say. But whether the newer classes are "lesser" than previous classes, they are still doing significantly better post-pandemic than other schools. Here is all of the SOL data:

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
TJ:
English Reading 45 45 59 100 95 94
Writing 97 95 97 96
VA & US History 94 57 56
World History I 88 88 100 60 59
World History II 85 82 78 53 28
Algebra I 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry 67 83 63 73 42 41
Biology 80 82 86 66 53 58
Chemistry 87 91 94 52
Earth Science 47 47 62

Langley:
English Reading 41 12 21 18 56 59
Writing 61 54 52 37
VA & US History 55 33 17 12
World History I 40 41 49
World History II 55 32 22 10
Algebra I 5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry 31 29 34 6 24 21
Biology 42 32 41 28 37 31
Chemistry 39 42 41 8 16 7
Earth Science 4 3 10 11

Do you see how TJ scores went down from the 2020/2021 school year to the 2021/2022 school year?
Do you see how Langley scores went up from the 2020/2021 school year to the 2021/2022 school year?

In fact, most schools saw increases between 2020/2021 to 2021/2022. Almost all schools were recovering from covid and you would expect TJ would also recover from covid but they didn't, they got worse and mostly stayed worse.

It's crazy that you are incapable of seeing this. This is epic levels of confirmation bias.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

If you can't isolate out that every other school seems to be recovering while TJ is getting worse, then I think you are probably being deliberately ignorant or just incapable of understanding the argument.

You want this data to show that other schools are improving post-pandemic and that TJ, because the admissions changes, is getting worse. But it doesn't show that. Learning loss is clear (except for reading) but there's no dividing line between before-admissions-changes and after-admissions-changes. There's just not enough data to say. But whether the newer classes are "lesser" than previous classes, they are still doing significantly better post-pandemic than other schools. Here is all of the SOL data:

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
TJ:
English Reading 45 45 59 100 95 94
Writing 97 95 97 96
VA & US History 94 57 56
World History I 88 88 100 60 59
World History II 85 82 78 53 28
Algebra I 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry 67 83 63 73 42 41
Biology 80 82 86 66 53 58
Chemistry 87 91 94 52
Earth Science 47 47 62

Langley:
English Reading 41 12 21 18 56 59
Writing 61 54 52 37
VA & US History 55 33 17 12
World History I 40 41 49
World History II 55 32 22 10
Algebra I 5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry 31 29 34 6 24 21
Biology 42 32 41 28 37 31
Chemistry 39 42 41 8 16 7
Earth Science 4 3 10 11

Do you see how TJ scores went down from the 2020/2021 school year to the 2021/2022 school year?
Do you see how Langley scores went up from the 2020/2021 school year to the 2021/2022 school year?

In fact, most schools saw increases between 2020/2021 to 2021/2022. Almost all schools were recovering from covid and you would expect TJ would also recover from covid but they didn't, they got worse and mostly stayed worse.

It's crazy that you are incapable of seeing this. This is epic levels of confirmation bias.

“Most schools” - do you mean beyond the two wealthiest schools?

It’s crazy that you keep making claims and then don’t back them up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’d be more helpful to include the two years prior and the two years following. And add a few more schools that are more representative of FCPS.

Just comparing two data points for affluent schools isn’t incredibly meaningful.

DP.

The link to all the data is above but here it is again.
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
There is nothing for the 2019/2020 school year, SOLs were cancelled that year because of COVID

If you think I'm cherry-picking data, you can look at the data yourself, I picked to two largest feeder pyramids that were likely to see the effects of students that were left behind under the new system.

“Students left behind”

JFC. No one is entitled to a seat at TJ. It’s a community resource; it’s not just for wealthy kids from Langley/McLean.

It is a community resource meant for the most academically gifted kids that need that rigor to get an education that meets their needs.
Whether they are all from carson or all from twain.
If you have a problem with the academic results of students at twain, you should address that problem at twain or the elementary schools that feed into it.

Frankly if you get rid of holistic admissions and relied entirely on the test, you would get fewer kids from carson and more kids from and more kids from places like twain.
The percentage of kids that get into the pool that go on to get offers is higher at wealthier schools and lower at less wealthy schools.
In a recent year twain had 20 kids get into the pool based on test scores and other objective metrics and ZERO get offers because none of them had the compelling essays describing the fantastic life experiences their parents purchased for them. They just studied and played outside with their friends.

“The most” defined by whom and by what measure?

Certainly none of the previous admissions tests which were skewed by the TJ test prep industry.

A merit lottery is the best option for a community resource like TJ.

We could use the same method used by most countries in determining who gets to go to which college.
A test.
Most of asia uses a single test.
Much of europe uses a single test.
The best schools in most of these countries are almost all public schools and spots at those schools are determined by a single test.
That is because it is the fairest way to determine who would should attend the most rigorous schools.
What you call gaming and test prep, the rest of the world calls studying.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

If you can't isolate out that every other school seems to be recovering while TJ is getting worse, then I think you are probably being deliberately ignorant or just incapable of understanding the argument.

You want this data to show that other schools are improving post-pandemic and that TJ, because the admissions changes, is getting worse. But it doesn't show that. Learning loss is clear (except for reading) but there's no dividing line between before-admissions-changes and after-admissions-changes. There's just not enough data to say. But whether the newer classes are "lesser" than previous classes, they are still doing significantly better post-pandemic than other schools. Here is all of the SOL data:

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
TJ:
English Reading 45 45 59 100 95 94
Writing 97 95 97 96
VA & US History 94 57 56
World History I 88 88 100 60 59
World History II 85 82 78 53 28
Algebra I 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry 67 83 63 73 42 41
Biology 80 82 86 66 53 58
Chemistry 87 91 94 52
Earth Science 47 47 62

Langley:
English Reading 41 12 21 18 56 59
Writing 61 54 52 37
VA & US History 55 33 17 12
World History I 40 41 49
World History II 55 32 22 10
Algebra I 5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry 31 29 34 6 24 21
Biology 42 32 41 28 37 31
Chemistry 39 42 41 8 16 7
Earth Science 4 3 10 11

Do you see how TJ scores went down from the 2020/2021 school year to the 2021/2022 school year?
Do you see how Langley scores went up from the 2020/2021 school year to the 2021/2022 school year?

In fact, most schools saw increases between 2020/2021 to 2021/2022. Almost all schools were recovering from covid and you would expect TJ would also recover from covid but they didn't, they got worse and mostly stayed worse.

It's crazy that you are incapable of seeing this. This is epic levels of confirmation bias.

“Most schools” - do you mean beyond the two wealthiest schools?

It’s crazy that you keep making claims and then don’t back them up.

I literally linked all the data from all the schools in virginia.

I specifically compared TJ with two of the school pyramids that sent the most students to TJ.
If you are asking me to keep digging until I prove myself wrong then I don't think that is possible because I am not wrong.

If you think I am cherry picking, please feel free to look at the data yourself but the fact that the data has been offered for weeks and linked at least half a dozen times and you still say things like this makes it clear you haven't looked at the data and probably have no interest in data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

If you can't isolate out that every other school seems to be recovering while TJ is getting worse, then I think you are probably being deliberately ignorant or just incapable of understanding the argument.

Speaking of being deliberately ignorant the data states otherwise. Stop with the gaslighting already and accept that TJ was impacted like other schools and like experts have stated it will take a decade or more to recover.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

If you can't isolate out that every other school seems to be recovering while TJ is getting worse, then I think you are probably being deliberately ignorant or just incapable of understanding the argument.

You want this data to show that other schools are improving post-pandemic and that TJ, because the admissions changes, is getting worse. But it doesn't show that. Learning loss is clear (except for reading) but there's no dividing line between before-admissions-changes and after-admissions-changes. There's just not enough data to say. But whether the newer classes are "lesser" than previous classes, they are still doing significantly better post-pandemic than other schools. Here is all of the SOL data:

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
TJ:
English Reading 45 45 59 100 95 94
Writing 97 95 97 96
VA & US History 94 57 56
World History I 88 88 100 60 59
World History II 85 82 78 53 28
Algebra I 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry 67 83 63 73 42 41
Biology 80 82 86 66 53 58
Chemistry 87 91 94 52
Earth Science 47 47 62

Langley:
English Reading 41 12 21 18 56 59
Writing 61 54 52 37
VA & US History 55 33 17 12
World History I 40 41 49
World History II 55 32 22 10
Algebra I 5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry 31 29 34 6 24 21
Biology 42 32 41 28 37 31
Chemistry 39 42 41 8 16 7
Earth Science 4 3 10 11

Do you see how TJ scores went down from the 2020/2021 school year to the 2021/2022 school year?
Do you see how Langley scores went up from the 2020/2021 school year to the 2021/2022 school year?

In fact, most schools saw increases between 2020/2021 to 2021/2022. Almost all schools were recovering from covid and you would expect TJ would also recover from covid but they didn't, they got worse and mostly stayed worse.

It's crazy that you are incapable of seeing this. This is epic levels of confirmation bias.

“Most schools” - do you mean beyond the two wealthiest schools?

It’s crazy that you keep making claims and then don’t back them up.

I literally linked all the data from all the schools in virginia.

I specifically compared TJ with two of the school pyramids that sent the most students to TJ.
If you are asking me to keep digging until I prove myself wrong then I don't think that is possible because I am not wrong.

If you think I am cherry picking, please feel free to look at the data yourself but the fact that the data has been offered for weeks and linked at least half a dozen times and you still say things like this makes it clear you haven't looked at the data and probably have no interest in data.

Your data backs up your claims. They are just being willfully ignorant trying to push the false narrative in the hope of returning the gamed process that favored wealthy schools.

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Anonymous wrote:TJ applicants all deserve a chance to grow and foster their love of STEM. Even if they weren’t lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family.

TJ exists for learning and enrichment; it’s not just a prize for lucky kids.

If a program is for the most academically gifted students then you should probably be selecting the most academically gifted students without regard to how they became academically gifted.
If you want to level the playing field so that poor kids are as likely to become academically gifted as wealthier kids, what's your plan?
But you are trying to treat all kids as if they are equally academically gifted and treat TJ admissions like a bingo prize.

If you want more poor kids then make the admissions based purely on a test.
NYC does this with its flagship magnet schools and the majority of the students at those schools are on free or reduced lunch.
Holistic admissions and subjective criteria favors kids with resources.

TJ is for qualified students who have an interest in STEM.

It's not supposed to be.

TJ is a governor's school.

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners." https://www.doe.virginia.gov/teaching-learnin...n/governor-s-schools

The pool of qualified students includes about 40% of FCPS
That is how many students in FCPS have 8th grade algebra and at least a 3.5 GPA.
That includes a lot of mediocre students.

Mediocre according to who? Their teachers who are giving them A's don't seem to think so...

Medicare is relative here. I am comparing these students compared to students selected under the previous method. Using that standard, these students are mediocre according to:

PSAT scores
SOL advance pass rates
The TJ math department email to students
The return to base school rates
A metric crap ton of anecdotal evidence.

40% of FCPS 8th graders have a 3.5 GPA of higher. That's not really what I would call selective.

If there are that many qualified students then TJ needs to expand even further!

They're not qualified.
Not for TJ.

You can create another school for the mediocre kids you want to give participation trophies to but humanity needs to develop the smart kids so the mediocre kids can pretend they solved global warming by blocking traffic and throwing tomato soup on the Mona Lisa

I get that you hate the reforms but you really need to stop lying. Sure, the kids getting in now may not have had years of expensive prep but seem to have much greater potential than the third rate preppers that were being admitted in the past.

And yet, the current crop of students need remedial classes, get PSAT scores 100 points lower than before, get lower gpa, just less qualified along every academic metric.

The previous crop of students also had issues. Nothing has really chagned.

You mean aside from the 100 point drop in PSAT
Much lower rates of pass advance SOL.
Fewer Math Olympiad winners
Fewer academic contest winners.
Way more remedial students.
Much higher wash out rates.
A lot has changed, especially at the bottom end of the curve.

The silver lining is that the kids that actually belong there are less stressed because the unqualified kids fill up the bottom half of the curve but they came to TJ for MORE competition, not less.

I know it's sad that the learning loss from virtual school during the pandemic impacted test scores. I'd read that it will be years before we fully recover.

We recovered like 2 years ago. This is publicly available information
https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results
In 2022 when the advance pass rates for almost every other school in FCPS was rising back to previous levels. The SOL advance pass rates at TJ were plummeting.

The PSAT scores barely budged in 2022 except at TJ where they dropped 100 points.
We will not have SAT score information for the new cohort for a while but it should be noted that SAT scores weren't adversely affected by COVID.

It's really crazy because overall scores are still way down after the pandemic but because of test optional reported scores appear higher despite the huge overall drop. People with low scores just don't report which messes with overall stats these days.

So why did test scores everywhere else go up bot go down at TJ and pretty much only TJ?

#fakenews

You damage the credibility of everyone on your side by denying citable facts.
Once again, here is the link to the Virginia DOE SOL results.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/data-policy-funding/data-reports/statistics-reports/sol-test-pass-rates-other-results

NP. I did some spot checking of TJ pass and pass advanced SOL rates in 2016/2017/2018 and 2021/2022/2023 between TJ and a couple other high schools and the post-pandemic scores are down at all high schools. I didn't see that TJ SOL test scores were worse than other high schools (they are still much higher than at other schools). At all schools, SOL pass advanced rates are down from 2019. SOL scores haven't recovered anywhere in the state, including at TJ. All those people saying that there was no learning loss, or that students have recovered, aren't looking.

That is so intellectually dishonest, it borders on just plain dishonest.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOLs in 2022 were as high as or higher than they were in 2019.
NOONE is saying that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped below base school advance pass rates.

I said that TJ's SOL advance pass rates dropped between 2021 and 2022, the students admitted under the new system were scoring lower on the SOLs than students admitted under the old system.
Then someone asked if this might be a delayed effect of school closures during covid.
So then I compared SOL advance pass rates between 2021 and 2022 at OTHER FCPS schools and did not see the sort of across the board drops we saw at TJ. If this was covid realted, you would expect to see similar profiles at other schools
But, in fact most schools saw improvements between 2021 and 2022.
The schools that saw the most improvements were the schools that used to send a lot of kids to TJ under the old system but send fewer kids under the new system, so they got to keep more of their better students.
The schools that saw the least improvement were the schools that used to send few or no kids to TJ and now send 7-10 of their better students at schools with advance pass rates in the single dfigits, this can make a difference.

We are getting close to the point where if you still think that the students admitted under the new system are as competitive as the students admitted under the old system, you are either lying or stupid.
We will see what the SAT's look like for the current senior class. I suspect that will be the nail in the coffin.

Here is some longer term data, including the time period of 2021 and 2022. Other than learning loss, I can't really draw firm conclusions from it re the admissions changes. You think I'm being dishonest - I think the data doesn't show what you are saying it does. It is sobering to look at this data and some other area high schools and see the continuing effects of the pandemic.

Pass Advanced rates for 2016-2017 2017-2018 2018-2019 2020-2021 2021-2022 2022-2023
Yorktown AlgI: 1 2 7 3 3 7
Algebra II: 30 31 18 12 19 14
Geometry: 17 18 22 3 13 25
Chemistry: 19 22 25 0 25 12

TJ Alg I: 71 76 58 70 29 56
Algebra II: 89 94 94 63 53 58
Geometry: 67 83 63 73 42 41
Chemistry: 87 91 94 52

Langley Alg I:5 6 1 0 3 2
Algebra II: 48 59 39 9 45 55
Geometry: 31 29 34 6 24 21
Chemistry: 39 42 41 8 16 7

Marshall Alg I: 7 4 7 1 5 3
Algebra II: 39 38 23 7 34 24
Geometry: 22 23 18 5 6 14
Chemistry: 34 42 38 5 13 9

Lake Brad Alg I: 26 29 38 15 25 25
Algebra II: 33 33 28 31 15 35
Geometry: 35 34 34 19 23 24
Chemistry: 32 35 35 11 11 6

It's no surprise the pandemic impacts TJ just like other schools.

If you can't isolate out that every other school seems to be recovering while TJ is getting worse, then I think you are probably being deliberately ignorant or just incapable of understanding the argument.

Speaking of being deliberately ignorant the data states otherwise. Stop with the gaslighting already and accept that TJ was impacted like other schools and like experts have stated it will take a decade or more to recover.

I don't know who you think you are fooling. If you can't look at the testing data published by the virginia department of education and suss out that everybody else was recovering from covid between 2021 and 2022 while TJ was deteriorating then either you are stupid or you think the rest of the world is.