University of Chicago

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:In my opinion, I don't think one can over-estimate the impact of the Chicago Statement (2014?) and the national attention received in 2016 by the letter sent by the Dean of Students to the incoming freshman class of 2020 affirming the free speech principles in the Chicago Statement. UChicago's committment to free speech and exposing students to diverse and opposing viewpoints and ideas is a true distinctive among the elite schools. It has come under assault during the past year and fingers crossed it can hold now that Pres. Zimmer is leaving.

NP here with kid who was just accepted ED into Chicago a couple of days ago.
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I'm a sometime poster on DCUM who started out at a junior college and ended up at Harvard Law, then after practicing a bit, I ended up consulting in negotiation/conflict resolution. In law school and in consulting, I very much came to believe that we cannot change one another's minds unless we establish an atmosphere that is safe enough for people to express their views without fear of a resulting ad hominem attack. A saying of my mentor was "you cannot change someone's mind until you know where their mind is." Which does not mean assuming you know where their mind is, but rather actually putting one's assumptions aside, listening, and being open to being persuaded yourself.

Anyways, while over time many things in our culture have gotten better, and some things worse, but for purposes of this post, I have been concerned about the de-emphasis on freedom of speech in our culture and schools. I saw that UChicago acceptance letter a few years back and discussed it with my kid. We ended up going to admissions talk given by Dean Nondorf--which did not emphasize this, but wow he is good at what he does--and my kid became set on UChicago. So many years ago now.

I'm concerned, though, that it's like getting accepted to Sparta. I believe she'll get an unparalleled education--assuming she survives it.

Congratulations to your daughter. It sounds like she will thrive at UChicago. It is a special place and she will receive an unparalleled education there while enjoying all Chicago has to offer.

Lots of things to love about UofC and more than a few to dislike, but my Class of 2020 kid’s experience suggests that norms regarding campus speech are no different there than at other elite universities. (Probably generational/social media driven). Not an unparalleled education, but can be an excellent one. Again, true elsewhere.

Agreed. UChicago is functionally no different from any other elite private university, but much of the right has latched onto this image. Not saying PPs are conservatives or right-wing or making any judgment call either way, just pointing that out. UChicago's posturing as a beacon of "free speech" et al is a marketing exercise.

The students at Chicago are as batsh*t crazy liberal as any of the other elite privates, even some of its faculty, specially in the English and History departments are annoyingly woke, but that still misses the point. The administration at Chicago is certainly in control and very moderate and prevents the woke gang from trying to cancel other ideas, while allowing them to still shout out their crazy nonsense from the roof tops. That doesn't happen in other schools where the woke gang has either taken over the administration or they are too scared to do anything about it.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

so I'm the second PP above, with the kid that was accepted. I recognize that the Statement might be what the university is peddling vs. what the reality is, but I like that they are peddling it. As it attracted my DD, it may attract other kids who are interested in listening, considering, debating, and convincing vs canceling. Left or right. And not just in politics, but in other areas as well.

I agree with this. While the student body and norms regarding campus speech might appear to be just as slanted ideologically as those at other elite schools, if you have been closely following what has been happening on campuses across the country, even "merely" paying lip service to viewpoint diversity is significant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Earlier in the thread it was predicted the crazy anti U of C would show up.

Who hurt you so?

You do realize there are multiple posters commenting on very different stuff? Why do you feel so butthurt when we voice our opinions on U of C?

Of course - but the particular dolt who always shows up with the silly ROI argument has been exposed on this website and others for its rants. An agenda well beyond chiming in.

I'm not the ROI poster, and I don't care who that person is. It's a valid concern when you're doing your college search. U of Chi may be good for academia but it's just not the stellar pre-professional pipeline that many kids are looking (as some parents have peddled) nor does it offer an equivalent level of prestige the ivies, MIT, or Stanford are offering if you are the kind of person looking to boast around your coworkers and neighbors. This is just the caveat emptor and I'm sure just about every school has one. Nobody (maybe except UVA boosters on DCUM) reacted as strongly as U of Chi grads/parents when we bring in those opinions. Chicago is strong on its own and I'm sure it'll do just fine. This level of sensitivity just shows a lot of insecurity on your end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my opinion, I don't think one can over-estimate the impact of the Chicago Statement (2014?) and the national attention received in 2016 by the letter sent by the Dean of Students to the incoming freshman class of 2020 affirming the free speech principles in the Chicago Statement. UChicago's committment to free speech and exposing students to diverse and opposing viewpoints and ideas is a true distinctive among the elite schools. It has come under assault during the past year and fingers crossed it can hold now that Pres. Zimmer is leaving.

NP here with kid who was just accepted ED into Chicago a couple of days ago.
.
I'm a sometime poster on DCUM who started out at a junior college and ended up at Harvard Law, then after practicing a bit, I ended up consulting in negotiation/conflict resolution. In law school and in consulting, I very much came to believe that we cannot change one another's minds unless we establish an atmosphere that is safe enough for people to express their views without fear of a resulting ad hominem attack. A saying of my mentor was "you cannot change someone's mind until you know where their mind is." Which does not mean assuming you know where their mind is, but rather actually putting one's assumptions aside, listening, and being open to being persuaded yourself.

Anyways, while over time many things in our culture have gotten better, and some things worse, but for purposes of this post, I have been concerned about the de-emphasis on freedom of speech in our culture and schools. I saw that UChicago acceptance letter a few years back and discussed it with my kid. We ended up going to admissions talk given by Dean Nondorf--which did not emphasize this, but wow he is good at what he does--and my kid became set on UChicago. So many years ago now.

I'm concerned, though, that it's like getting accepted to Sparta. I believe she'll get an unparalleled education--assuming she survives it.

Congratulations to your daughter. It sounds like she will thrive at UChicago. It is a special place and she will receive an unparalleled education there while enjoying all Chicago has to offer.

Lots of things to love about UofC and more than a few to dislike, but my Class of 2020 kid’s experience suggests that norms regarding campus speech are no different there than at other elite universities. (Probably generational/social media driven). Not an unparalleled education, but can be an excellent one. Again, true elsewhere.

Agreed. UChicago is functionally no different from any other elite private university, but much of the right has latched onto this image. Not saying PPs are conservatives or right-wing or making any judgment call either way, just pointing that out. UChicago's posturing as a beacon of "free speech" et al is a marketing exercise.

The students at Chicago are as batsh*t crazy liberal as any of the other elite privates, even some of its faculty, specially in the English and History departments are annoyingly woke, but that still misses the point. The administration at Chicago is certainly in control and very moderate and prevents the woke gang from trying to cancel other ideas, while allowing them to still shout out their crazy nonsense from the roof tops. That doesn't happen in other schools where the woke gang has either taken over the administration or they are too scared to do anything about it.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

so I'm the second PP above, with the kid that was accepted. I recognize that the Statement might be what the university is peddling vs. what the reality is, but I like that they are peddling it. As it attracted my DD, it may attract other kids who are interested in listening, considering, debating, and convincing vs canceling. Left or right. And not just in politics, but in other areas as well.

I agree with this. While the student body and norms regarding campus speech might appear to be just as slanted ideologically as those at other elite schools, if you have been closely following what has been happening on campuses across the country, even "merely" paying lip service to viewpoint diversity is significant.

Weren't UChicago students protesting to abolish the police and started a tuition strike just weeks ago?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:You researched and linked to posts on another website. What a hopeless dork.

Have you (or your kids) never looked at college confidential when doing school research?

You sound just like every pretentious UChicago grad I know. I guess a "life of the mind" experience doesn't entail manners.

Sure did. But don’t keep links handy to schools we didn’t like. Because that’s extremely weird. And nope, no connection to U Chicago. No wonder you hate it. You decide people you don’t like went there, even when they didn’t.

How is this "handy"? Those are literally the top posts in the College Confidential subforum for UChicago and the level of self-trumpeting and boosterism is off the charts in just about every post in that subforum. You don't need to do any special research to get to those links. You just click and read the comments and oh boy that made my holiday.

You go to other websites to slam U Chicago why exactly? You’re so invested. How many colleges are you actively disparaging? Just can’t imagine why you care.

Why do you care? Lots of parents I'm sure read CC often. I just pulled out some random links to show how off-putting the trumpeters are and I'm now invested in disparaging U of Chi? Way to go.

How is this exactly slamming? Did I ever say anything bad about the school? I know people who went to that school and I have been there myself. No, it's just not as good as they are trying to market it whether on DCUM or CC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Earlier in the thread it was predicted the crazy anti U of C would show up.

Who hurt you so?

You do realize there are multiple posters commenting on very different stuff? Why do you feel so butthurt when we voice our opinions on U of C?

Of course - but the particular dolt who always shows up with the silly ROI argument has been exposed on this website and others for its rants. An agenda well beyond chiming in.

I'm not the ROI poster, and I don't care who that person is. It's a valid concern when you're doing your college search. U of Chi may be good for academia but it's just not the stellar pre-professional pipeline that many kids are looking (as some parents have peddled) nor does it offer an equivalent level of prestige the ivies, MIT, or Stanford are offering if you are the kind of person looking to boast around your coworkers and neighbors. This is just the caveat emptor and I'm sure just about every school has one. Nobody (maybe except UVA boosters on DCUM) reacted as strongly as U of Chi grads/parents when we bring in those opinions. Chicago is strong on its own and I'm sure it'll do just fine. This level of sensitivity just shows a lot of insecurity on your end.

The problem with the ROI poster is that the stats were self-reported nonsense. Many critiques are justified. That one was not but the poster with the agenda keeps it up.

[Anonymous]

Terrific school hurt by its crummy location. Chicago is a massive city and the campus is deep in its south side, which is war torn and dangerous except for the campus and a Whole Foods. It takes an hour to get downtown on public transportation and it's not a safe trek to put it mildly. It's cold and grey most of their Oct-June school year. Living in Chicago is a dream come true for Midwest-raised kids but to international, Sunbelt, East and West coast kids it's just 'meh'.

Leaving the Big Ten conference 60 years ago was probably a mistake they wish they could take back. Look how sports have helped Stanford, Duke, Northwestern and Notre Dame. Big Ten membership brings in $60 million cash to each college, plus the name rec, the alum engagement, on and on.

[Anonymous]

Until UChicago stops two rounds of ED, it will remain in the second tier behind SCEA and single-round ED top privates. It has to use ED I and ED II to keep its yield high artificially.

[Anonymous]

That makes no sense

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Terrific school hurt by its crummy location. Chicago is a massive city and the campus is deep in its south side, which is war torn and dangerous except for the campus and a Whole Foods. It takes an hour to get downtown on public transportation and it's not a safe trek to put it mildly. It's cold and grey most of their Oct-June school year. Living in Chicago is a dream come true for Midwest-raised kids but to international, Sunbelt, East and West coast kids it's just 'meh'.

Leaving the Big Ten conference 60 years ago was probably a mistake they wish they could take back. Look how sports have helped Stanford, Duke, Northwestern and Notre Dame. Big Ten membership brings in $60 million cash to each college, plus the name rec, the alum engagement, on and on.

Northwestern's location on the Northside of Chicago (right outside city limits IIRC) is actually ideal IMO. Access to the big city, and actually closer to the more exciting neighborhoods and sights than UChicago, ironically, but also has its own cute little college town.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Until UChicago stops two rounds of ED, it will remain in the second tier behind SCEA and single-round ED top privates. It has to use ED I and ED II to keep its yield high artificially.

I think it is a calculated move on their part to grab high stats kids who got rejected from ivy’s in the first round. Similar to what Vanderbilt does. Vanderbilt is their direct competition rather than Stanford and the other top 5-6 schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Until UChicago stops two rounds of ED, it will remain in the second tier behind SCEA and single-round ED top privates. It has to use ED I and ED II to keep its yield high artificially.

SCEA? You think the U of C is "behind" Boston College and Notre Dame?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Until UChicago stops two rounds of ED, it will remain in the second tier behind SCEA and single-round ED top privates. It has to use ED I and ED II to keep its yield high artificially.

SCEA? You think the U of C is "behind" Boston College and Notre Dame?

"top privates" - you know what it meant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Terrific school hurt by its crummy location. Chicago is a massive city and the campus is deep in its south side, which is war torn and dangerous except for the campus and a Whole Foods. It takes an hour to get downtown on public transportation and it's not a safe trek to put it mildly. It's cold and grey most of their Oct-June school year. Living in Chicago is a dream come true for Midwest-raised kids but to international, Sunbelt, East and West coast kids it's just 'meh'.

Leaving the Big Ten conference 60 years ago was probably a mistake they wish they could take back. Look how sports have helped Stanford, Duke, Northwestern and Notre Dame. Big Ten membership brings in $60 million cash to each college, plus the name rec, the alum engagement, on and on.

Northwestern's location on the Northside of Chicago (right outside city limits IIRC) is actually ideal IMO. Access to the big city, and actually closer to the more exciting neighborhoods and sights than UChicago, ironically, but also has its own cute little college town.

Why don't they just pony up the cash to rejoin the Big Ten?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Terrific school hurt by its crummy location. Chicago is a massive city and the campus is deep in its south side, which is war torn and dangerous except for the campus and a Whole Foods. It takes an hour to get downtown on public transportation and it's not a safe trek to put it mildly. It's cold and grey most of their Oct-June school year. Living in Chicago is a dream come true for Midwest-raised kids but to international, Sunbelt, East and West coast kids it's just 'meh'.

Leaving the Big Ten conference 60 years ago was probably a mistake they wish they could take back. Look how sports have helped Stanford, Duke, Northwestern and Notre Dame. Big Ten membership brings in $60 million cash to each college, plus the name rec, the alum engagement, on and on.

Northwestern's location on the Northside of Chicago (right outside city limits IIRC) is actually ideal IMO. Access to the big city, and actually closer to the more exciting neighborhoods and sights than UChicago, ironically, but also has its own cute little college town.

Why don't they just pony up the cash to rejoin the Big Ten?

Dear, that's not how it works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Until UChicago stops two rounds of ED, it will remain in the second tier behind SCEA and single-round ED top privates. It has to use ED I and ED II to keep its yield high artificially.

I think it is a calculated move on their part to grab high stats kids who got rejected from ivy’s in the first round. Similar to what Vanderbilt does. Vanderbilt is their direct competition rather than Stanford and the other top 5-6 schools

Cross-admit data, while only reflecting a small sample of applicants, is nonetheless a pretty good reflection of students' preferences after they were accepted to multiple schools.

Chicago has a decisive advantage over schools like Cornell, JHU, Northwestern, Notre Dame, Rice, and other T-20 Southern schools like Vanderbilt and Emory. It competes with schools like Brown and Dartmouth while losing out by a decisive margin to the rest of the ivies (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Pennsylvania), MIT, Stanford, and Duke. The PP is right that Chicago is in a tier below these schools, despite what the online boosters want to make you believe.