FCPS decline

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if all that was true, you'd see test scores- including scores that can be compared across districts like AP and SAT scores- falling in comparison to other districts. You're not because it really doesn't matter because educated parents will have expectations for their kids and those kids will more often than not follow in their parents' footsteps. FCPS bends over backwards trying to fix the achievement gap, but a kid whose parents are doctors or lawyers or who has an ivy educated SAHM is going to do well in school and a kid whose parent's don't have diplomas or who is learning English and math at the same time probably won't. Unfortunately for FCPS, it has very large numbers in both groups so the gap that everyone cares about looks particularly bad

Well, time will tell. I can't imagine that today's crop of elementary and middle school children, receiving the "lowest common denominator," textbook-free education that FCPS is providing, will do very well on standardized tests in high school.

I agree with some of what you've described -- there are wealthy parents who will, for whatever reason, keep their kids in FCPS while supplementing their education with tutors, extracurricular learning opportunities, etc., and those kids will do well. But I expect that many wealthy families in this demographic will pull their kids out of FCPS as the quality of education continues to decline (and as the discipline and safety issues continue to degrade due to politicized issues like "disproportionate discipline") and that this will exert downward pressure on test scores and other metrics of achievement.

There are the students at the other end of the achievement gap, to whom FCPS will continue to devote the bulk of its resources, but the result will continue to be low-achievement and possibly worse achievement, as the discipline situation continues to degrade.

But the real damage will be caused by those parents in the middle -- the ones who aren't going to keep their kids in FPCS while trying to supplement FCPS's deficiencies with costly tutors, private instruction, and other such extracurricular activities. They will just pull their kids out -- move, send them to Catholic school, or do whatever it takes to flee the sinking ship that is FCPS. These students are the worst-affected -- they are ignored by FCPS because they don't fit anyone's political hot-button categories, but their parents can't buy their way out of FCPS's lowest common denominator approach to education. This is where you'll see the bottom drop out.

math is still strong in FCPS and advanced math is relatively easy to get into. The rest can be picked up either through conversation with educated parents (picking up speech patterns will do more to make someone sound educated than English class ever can) or just though being encouraged to read and to read challenging material. I'm convinced that a student could be exposed to zero US history in ES or MS, pick up some good books and do better on an AP exam than a kid who has had years of age appropriate history classes throughout elementary and middle school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if all that was true, you'd see test scores- including scores that can be compared across districts like AP and SAT scores- falling in comparison to other districts. You're not because it really doesn't matter because educated parents will have expectations for their kids and those kids will more often than not follow in their parents' footsteps. FCPS bends over backwards trying to fix the achievement gap, but a kid whose parents are doctors or lawyers or who has an ivy educated SAHM is going to do well in school and a kid whose parent's don't have diplomas or who is learning English and math at the same time probably won't. Unfortunately for FCPS, it has very large numbers in both groups so the gap that everyone cares about looks particularly bad

Well, time will tell. I can't imagine that today's crop of elementary and middle school children, receiving the "lowest common denominator," textbook-free education that FCPS is providing, will do very well on standardized tests in high school.

I agree with some of what you've described -- there are wealthy parents who will, for whatever reason, keep their kids in FCPS while supplementing their education with tutors, extracurricular learning opportunities, etc., and those kids will do well. But I expect that many wealthy families in this demographic will pull their kids out of FCPS as the quality of education continues to decline (and as the discipline and safety issues continue to degrade due to politicized issues like "disproportionate discipline") and that this will exert downward pressure on test scores and other metrics of achievement.

There are the students at the other end of the achievement gap, to whom FCPS will continue to devote the bulk of its resources, but the result will continue to be low-achievement and possibly worse achievement, as the discipline situation continues to degrade.

But the real damage will be caused by those parents in the middle -- the ones who aren't going to keep their kids in FPCS while trying to supplement FCPS's deficiencies with costly tutors, private instruction, and other such extracurricular activities. They will just pull their kids out -- move, send them to Catholic school, or do whatever it takes to flee the sinking ship that is FCPS. These students are the worst-affected -- they are ignored by FCPS because they don't fit anyone's political hot-button categories, but their parents can't buy their way out of FCPS's lowest common denominator approach to education. This is where you'll see the bottom drop out.

Thank-you NJ for your posts; both are eloquently said and honestly should be stickied on these threads. Regarding discipline, it is definitely true that continuing to avoid it by applying lax or no measures will eventually lead to terrible learning outcomes. We are already seeing this 20 minutes away across the river in MCPS, a large school system in Maryland. From everything I've read and heard, even ok schools in nice areas such as Rockville are becoming affected by the inability to allow teachers to teach. Parents have realized this and have made plans to escape the illusion that MCPS is still one of the nation's top school systems. It's clear that FCPS seems to be following suit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if all that was true, you'd see test scores- including scores that can be compared across districts like AP and SAT scores- falling in comparison to other districts. You're not because it really doesn't matter because educated parents will have expectations for their kids and those kids will more often than not follow in their parents' footsteps. FCPS bends over backwards trying to fix the achievement gap, but a kid whose parents are doctors or lawyers or who has an ivy educated SAHM is going to do well in school and a kid whose parent's don't have diplomas or who is learning English and math at the same time probably won't. Unfortunately for FCPS, it has very large numbers in both groups so the gap that everyone cares about looks particularly bad

Well, time will tell. I can't imagine that today's crop of elementary and middle school children, receiving the "lowest common denominator," textbook-free education that FCPS is providing, will do very well on standardized tests in high school.

I agree with some of what you've described -- there are wealthy parents who will, for whatever reason, keep their kids in FCPS while supplementing their education with tutors, extracurricular learning opportunities, etc., and those kids will do well. But I expect that many wealthy families in this demographic will pull their kids out of FCPS as the quality of education continues to decline (and as the discipline and safety issues continue to degrade due to politicized issues like "disproportionate discipline") and that this will exert downward pressure on test scores and other metrics of achievement.

There are the students at the other end of the achievement gap, to whom FCPS will continue to devote the bulk of its resources, but the result will continue to be low-achievement and possibly worse achievement, as the discipline situation continues to degrade.

But the real damage will be caused by those parents in the middle -- the ones who aren't going to keep their kids in FPCS while trying to supplement FCPS's deficiencies with costly tutors, private instruction, and other such extracurricular activities. They will just pull their kids out -- move, send them to Catholic school, or do whatever it takes to flee the sinking ship that is FCPS. These students are the worst-affected -- they are ignored by FCPS because they don't fit anyone's political hot-button categories, but their parents can't buy their way out of FCPS's lowest common denominator approach to education. This is where you'll see the bottom drop out.

That's us. Middle class in an apartment. We can't afford any of those extras. We can't move due to DH's job. But because of my work hours, I am able to homeschool. We did that this year since distance learning for early ES sounded horrible and we'll probably keep doing it for lack of a better option that we can afford.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The schools are required to educate the ESOL students who are slowing down the classrooms. Actions have consequences.

I grew up in a pretty low-income area and attended public schools. There were plenty of ESOL and other low-income kids, or low-achievement kids, in our school district. We were tracked -- meaning that students were grouped in to classes based on their academic level, so that smarter students would be in "track 1" and could learn material that was challenging and do so at an appropriately challenging and demanding pace, while "track 2" and "track 3" and "track 4" etc. would each work at their own respective appropriate levels.

It's pretty simple. You don't have to teach everyone to the lowest common denominator.

[Anonymous]

ESOL keeps coming up. Would it be a horrible thing for them to have a dedicated ESOL class? Wouldn't it be more efficient and better serve them? And also students need to actually be held back if needed instead of just moved constantly forward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The schools are required to educate the ESOL students who are slowing down the classrooms. Actions have consequences.

I grew up in a pretty low-income area and attended public schools. There were plenty of ESOL and other low-income kids, or low-achievement kids, in our school district. We were tracked -- meaning that students were grouped in to classes based on their academic level, so that smarter students would be in "track 1" and could learn material that was challenging and do so at an appropriately challenging and demanding pace, while "track 2" and "track 3" and "track 4" etc. would each work at their own respective appropriate levels.

It's pretty simple. You don't have to teach everyone to the lowest common denominator.

What does this have to do with anything?

When I was in school they were allow to separate out ESOL and those with learning disabilities but now they aren't. So everyone is stuck in the same class - and yes that means they are teaching to the lowest denominator. There should be some differentiation in the class but there is such a wide gap between some students that this isnt practical in the classroom. My kid has had someone in the classroom who showed up without speaking a single word of english. There is no way teachers can give everyone what they need in this type of environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ESOL keeps coming up. Would it be a horrible thing for them to have a dedicated ESOL class? Wouldn't it be more efficient and better serve them? And also students need to actually be held back if needed instead of just moved constantly forward.

I don't think they're allowed to do that anymore.

PG County tried to do an ESOL school since so many were coming to the county and the NAACP sued to stop it. So I don't think having a separate school is legal either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The schools are required to educate the ESOL students who are slowing down the classrooms. Actions have consequences.

I grew up in a pretty low-income area and attended public schools. There were plenty of ESOL and other low-income kids, or low-achievement kids, in our school district. We were tracked -- meaning that students were grouped in to classes based on their academic level, so that smarter students would be in "track 1" and could learn material that was challenging and do so at an appropriately challenging and demanding pace, while "track 2" and "track 3" and "track 4" etc. would each work at their own respective appropriate levels.

It's pretty simple. You don't have to teach everyone to the lowest common denominator.

That was my experience as well. I grew up in Connecticut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
^FCPS has not developed a culture that supports the divided population we are seeing here. Years ago we had a more middle to upper middle class population. Now we are seeing the divide like much of America. FCPS is struggling to figure it all out.

The divide is not really a big issue for the families who want their kids to actually learn in school. Maybe it's an issue at the lower SES schools due to large number of resources needed to be spent bringing many kids to on level. But far more concerning is the fact that the quality of education is very low at high SES schools as well. At our FCPS elementary school (small school, and almost all high SES kids) there is very little learning going on in class. It's not that the kids are not capable or behind (they're clearly doing fine as most are privileged with lots of resources). It's the fact that many of the kids are bored and not getting what they need in math and reading/writing. The curriculum itself and the way the teachers teach is very basic and shallow. This in my opinion is the tragedy that is happening in FCPS, it's not the divide. The divide is good as the are is becoming more diverse, and bringing low SES kids up to on level is great. But the dumbing down of curriculum especially in high SES classrooms is really heartbreaking to see.

so the high SES schools should be allowed to move forward, while the gen ed kids in low SES schools still have to go the speed that the ESOL kids are capable of. Then when the schools meet up in middle school, the high SES kids will be so far ahead that the kids from the low SES schools will be stuck in remedial classes? sounds great for the high SES kids

Don't you think it a bit racist of you to claim that remedial classes are bad? Isn't the goal of closing the education gap to teach these kids effectively? You should be glad if kids are learning, irrespective of the class they are placed in, as long as they are at the appropriate level and the teacher is capable of teaching at that level.

so you're fine with kids from high SES schools being able to move forward and kids at low SES schools being forced to slow down due to the proportion of ESOL kids and then end up on a slower track not because of their ability, but because they ened up in a class room full of english learners that couldn't move at the same rate as a class in an SES school?

If a school is so heavily low SES that it doesn't even have one class for students ready to take on more challenging materials (and that's quite unlikely at the MS or HS level), I'd say the parents should have known what they were getting. That should not be a reason to frustrate the progress of students at other schools. Otherwise everything is being geared to the lowest possible denominator.

Yes, those lower middle class and working class families should have thought about this before they bought a house in Mount Vernon instead of McLean.

If education were their priority they'd be renting an apartment to get into a McLean school rather than buying a house in Mount Vernon.

But I doubt you're sticking up for the lower middle class families. It's usually the MC/UMC families at the low SES schools with buyer's remorse who want to hold others back.

or those parents could have the audacity to expect that public schools in the same county will have the same standards and follow the same curriculum- you know crazy ideas like that

Even with standardized material, you will still have teachers that go rogue. They don't care, and they do their own thing. This has been going on for decades. And I've never once seen any of them fired, just transferred around to other schools. --A teacher

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ESOL keeps coming up. Would it be a horrible thing for them to have a dedicated ESOL class? Wouldn't it be more efficient and better serve them? And also students need to actually be held back if needed instead of just moved constantly forward.

I don't think they're allowed to do that anymore.

PG County tried to do an ESOL school since so many were coming to the county and the NAACP sued to stop it. So I don't think having a separate school is legal either.

Is it actually bad for the kids or is it just because it feels mean somehow?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The schools are required to educate the ESOL students who are slowing down the classrooms. Actions have consequences.

I grew up in a pretty low-income area and attended public schools. There were plenty of ESOL and other low-income kids, or low-achievement kids, in our school district. We were tracked -- meaning that students were grouped in to classes based on their academic level, so that smarter students would be in "track 1" and could learn material that was challenging and do so at an appropriately challenging and demanding pace, while "track 2" and "track 3" and "track 4" etc. would each work at their own respective appropriate levels.

It's pretty simple. You don't have to teach everyone to the lowest common denominator.

they have that now with AAP and you see what a competitive cluster f&*^k that admissions process has become. I think if level III was a real track and level II and I were separated too, people would care far less about AAP and the craziness associated with it would fade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:if all that was true, you'd see test scores- including scores that can be compared across districts like AP and SAT scores- falling in comparison to other districts. You're not because it really doesn't matter because educated parents will have expectations for their kids and those kids will more often than not follow in their parents' footsteps. FCPS bends over backwards trying to fix the achievement gap, but a kid whose parents are doctors or lawyers or who has an ivy educated SAHM is going to do well in school and a kid whose parent's don't have diplomas or who is learning English and math at the same time probably won't. Unfortunately for FCPS, it has very large numbers in both groups so the gap that everyone cares about looks particularly bad

Well, time will tell. I can't imagine that today's crop of elementary and middle school children, receiving the "lowest common denominator," textbook-free education that FCPS is providing, will do very well on standardized tests in high school.

I agree with some of what you've described -- there are wealthy parents who will, for whatever reason, keep their kids in FCPS while supplementing their education with tutors, extracurricular learning opportunities, etc., and those kids will do well. But I expect that many wealthy families in this demographic will pull their kids out of FCPS as the quality of education continues to decline (and as the discipline and safety issues continue to degrade due to politicized issues like "disproportionate discipline") and that this will exert downward pressure on test scores and other metrics of achievement.

There are the students at the other end of the achievement gap, to whom FCPS will continue to devote the bulk of its resources, but the result will continue to be low-achievement and possibly worse achievement, as the discipline situation continues to degrade.

But the real damage will be caused by those parents in the middle -- the ones who aren't going to keep their kids in FPCS while trying to supplement FCPS's deficiencies with costly tutors, private instruction, and other such extracurricular activities. They will just pull their kids out -- move, send them to Catholic school, or do whatever it takes to flee the sinking ship that is FCPS. These students are the worst-affected -- they are ignored by FCPS because they don't fit anyone's political hot-button categories, but their parents can't buy their way out of FCPS's lowest common denominator approach to education. This is where you'll see the bottom drop out.

math is still strong in FCPS and advanced math is relatively easy to get into. The rest can be picked up either through conversation with educated parents (picking up speech patterns will do more to make someone sound educated than English class ever can) or just though being encouraged to read and to read challenging material. I'm convinced that a student could be exposed to zero US history in ES or MS, pick up some good books and do better on an AP exam than a kid who has had years of age appropriate history classes throughout elementary and middle school.

I think these threads are largely sustained by the local equivalent of Trump-style populists who think appeals to the "forgotten middle" will advance their anti-tax, anti-public school, pro-voucher, and pro-private school agenda. There's an inverse relationship between their success at the polls and the amount of time they spend venting on anonymous forums.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ESOL keeps coming up. Would it be a horrible thing for them to have a dedicated ESOL class? Wouldn't it be more efficient and better serve them? And also students need to actually be held back if needed instead of just moved constantly forward.

Exactly, as well as 3-4 levels of classes as PP said. Currently we just have regular and AAP in elementary, but we need at least one other level to differentiate between the disparate abilities of students. Also, there is no reason why schools cannot switch kids back and forth midway through the year, if a level is deemed inappropriate.

What is being done now is madness in terms of learning; most kids cannot learn much when the whole class is taught at exactly the same level. Group work by level is also minimal, which is another serious issue. Elementary kids have minimal opportunity in the classroom to work within a similar ability group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ESOL keeps coming up. Would it be a horrible thing for them to have a dedicated ESOL class? Wouldn't it be more efficient and better serve them? And also students need to actually be held back if needed instead of just moved constantly forward.

I don't think they're allowed to do that anymore.

PG County tried to do an ESOL school since so many were coming to the county and the NAACP sued to stop it. So I don't think having a separate school is legal either.

Is it actually bad for the kids or is it just because it feels mean somehow?

Probably just the supreme court ruling in Brown v. Board of Education.

Its definitely not helpful to kids who already know english

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The schools are required to educate the ESOL students who are slowing down the classrooms. Actions have consequences.

I grew up in a pretty low-income area and attended public schools. There were plenty of ESOL and other low-income kids, or low-achievement kids, in our school district. We were tracked -- meaning that students were grouped in to classes based on their academic level, so that smarter students would be in "track 1" and could learn material that was challenging and do so at an appropriately challenging and demanding pace, while "track 2" and "track 3" and "track 4" etc. would each work at their own respective appropriate levels.

It's pretty simple. You don't have to teach everyone to the lowest common denominator.

they have that now with AAP and you see what a competitive cluster f&*^k that admissions process has become. I think if level III was a real track and level II and I were separated too, people would care far less about AAP and the craziness associated with it would fade.

+1. AAP is used to get kids out of general ed.