First hearing on districtwide boundary study is tonight

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone think the county is actually going to spend millions on buses and bus drivers? When there aren't enough teachers, and classrooms and schools are overcrowded? And for all those who think there are enough empty seats, please do send your children to Poolesville and Damascus, especially if you live down county and are going against traffic. I'd like my children to walk to school thank you.

I'll give you an example where the county does this.

My kid lives 0.7 miles from one Middle School. Sidewalks all the way, and she could easily walk to school.

She is zoned for a MS 1.8 miles away and takes the bus.

It would make much more sense for my kid to attend the closer MS. The one we're zoned for is 'better', but it's much more inconvenient, and it requires MCPS to offer a bus. Plus an activity bus three days a week.

My kid lives in part of the DCC that doesn't have a high-school near it anymore. They're bussed to the closest high-school as are the 12345 kids that live in this part of the county. The kids who live across the street from the HS are bussed to another nearby HS because there's no room in the one that's close to them. Their bus ride however is much shorter than the bus ride my kids have. The point is being assigned to the closest HS isn't always the most sensible thing the county can do. It sometimes make more sense to look at the bigger picture.

We live in Kensington near Einstein but kids get bussed halfway across the county to Walter Johnson. We love it, but if the BoE rezones us for Einstein our property values will tank!!

And this is what it comes down to, really. It's not really about what's best for ALL the kids academically. Let's be honest here.

Of COURSE that's what this is about! These ridiculous dog whistle speeches about busing and not wanting to break up school communities is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. Just be honest about it.

Yep totally agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone think the county is actually going to spend millions on buses and bus drivers? When there aren't enough teachers, and classrooms and schools are overcrowded? And for all those who think there are enough empty seats, please do send your children to Poolesville and Damascus, especially if you live down county and are going against traffic. I'd like my children to walk to school thank you.

I'll give you an example where the county does this.

My kid lives 0.7 miles from one Middle School. Sidewalks all the way, and she could easily walk to school.

She is zoned for a MS 1.8 miles away and takes the bus.

It would make much more sense for my kid to attend the closer MS. The one we're zoned for is 'better', but it's much more inconvenient, and it requires MCPS to offer a bus. Plus an activity bus three days a week.

My kid lives in part of the DCC that doesn't have a high-school near it anymore. They're bussed to the closest high-school as are the 12345 kids that live in this part of the county. The kids who live across the street from the HS are bussed to another nearby HS because there's no room in the one that's close to them. Their bus ride however is much shorter than the bus ride my kids have. The point is being assigned to the closest HS isn't always the most sensible thing the county can do. It sometimes make more sense to look at the bigger picture.

We live in Kensington near Einstein but kids get bussed halfway across the county to Walter Johnson. We love it, but if the BoE rezones us for Einstein our property values will tank!!

And this is what it comes down to, really. It's not really about what's best for ALL the kids academically. Let's be honest here.

Of COURSE that's what this is about! These ridiculous dog whistle speeches about busing and not wanting to break up school communities is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. Just be honest about it.

And you act like it is a fact that playing musical chairs with school assignments will just help all the kids who still have to go home to these systemic problems. Pretty sure trying to fix social ills though the school system is a farce on both sides and it is pushed by the people who have nothing to lose getting redistricted and resisted by people with something to lose. even if you buy that the DCC is ruining kids lives via concentration ghetto poverty, you just going to shift less than 10%-20% of kids even with the most aggressive of plans. I guess you will give up on the 80-90% of kids remaining in the ghetto school and wish the few rich white kids luck who go

+1 million

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Schools are overcrowded. Some kids will have to move. End of story.

Exactly! Some schools are empty while others are over crowded so they are fixing it! Good for them! It's about time! Those of you so concerned with spending....you agree with brand new schools getting built (Baynard Rustin) while schools like Cold Spring sit empty???

yep. redistricting happens. life goes on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

DP

See, this is why parents are upset. It's mainly going to affect middle class families who may have purchased at the higher levels of their housing budget in order to get their kids into a better school district. Nobody living in Kensington is uber-wealthy.

So, the wealthy can just send their kids to private school, if they're not happy with the new boundaries. The lower income students will likely not see any improvement in their school outcomes.

Yet, once again, the middle class families lose out in the name of social justice.

The school district is Montgomery County Public Schools. School assignment is based upon the school boundaries and where your home address falls within these boundaries. Assignment is not based upon the closest school to your home. School service areas are subject to change.

[Anonymous]

Studies actually do not show that low income students do better in wealthier schools. There was one study that showed slight gains in low income kids attending schools with 10% low income but those gains evaporated when the % of low income kids hit 20%. These studies also crossed districts where there were significant resource gaps between the low income and high income schools which is not the case in MCPS. MCPS knows that the achievement gap persists regardless of the wealth of the school. They already see the data that low income kids at Watkins Mills do better than low income kids at QO even though QO has much lower FAEMS. They know that low income kids do the worst at PBES even though PBES has the lowest FARMS in the entire DCC. Low income kids fail in the "vaulted" W schools too. This why schools like WJ and Wootton rank 8 rather than 10 on GS. MCPS own staff has done research into the nuances of poverty and school performance. Their own report showed that the wealth of the school was not a predictive factor for PARCC scores for low income kids. What they did fins as a predictive indicator was the number of persistent years a child lived in poverty. The more years a child was eligible for FARMS, the lower the score.

So its an entirely bull shit and misinformation to claim that balancing SES is to raise scores or academic for low income kids.

What is a factor though is school climate. MCPS found that school climate surveys from teachers were much lower in high poverty schools. School safety concerns were much higher. It was harder to retain experienced teachers and they did find a correlation between noice teachers and lower ELA scores. By bussing kids to achieve reduce the concentration of FARMS kids in any one school, MCPS is seeking to improve the school climate. With restorative justice and the policy not to remove disruptive or dangerous students, this is becoming more important.

The other factor which wasn't addressed but seems to be very apparent in MCCPTA minds is getting access to more parent donations. High poverty schools have low to no PTA interactions, members paying dues to MCCPTA and donating for school activities. By balancing FARMS, MCCPTA is hoping that wealthier parents will open their pocketbooks more and give to them. You can make a case that the experience with POMS, new band uniforms, school dances, and other things that a PTA improves a child's experience in school but there has never been correlation let alone causation to a well funded POMS group and high school performance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Studies actually do not show that low income students do better in wealthier schools. There was one study that showed slight gains in low income kids attending schools with 10% low income but those gains evaporated when the % of low income kids hit 20%. These studies also crossed districts where there were significant resource gaps between the low income and high income schools which is not the case in MCPS. MCPS knows that the achievement gap persists regardless of the wealth of the school. They already see the data that low income kids at Watkins Mills do better than low income kids at QO even though QO has much lower FAEMS. They know that low income kids do the worst at PBES even though PBES has the lowest FARMS in the entire DCC. Low income kids fail in the "vaulted" W schools too. This why schools like WJ and Wootton rank 8 rather than 10 on GS. MCPS own staff has done research into the nuances of poverty and school performance. Their own report showed that the wealth of the school was not a predictive factor for PARCC scores for low income kids. What they did fins as a predictive indicator was the number of persistent years a child lived in poverty. The more years a child was eligible for FARMS, the lower the score.

So its an entirely bull shit and misinformation to claim that balancing SES is to raise scores or academic for low income kids.

What is a factor though is school climate. MCPS found that school climate surveys from teachers were much lower in high poverty schools. School safety concerns were much higher. It was harder to retain experienced teachers and they did find a correlation between noice teachers and lower ELA scores. By bussing kids to achieve reduce the concentration of FARMS kids in any one school, MCPS is seeking to improve the school climate. With restorative justice and the policy not to remove disruptive or dangerous students, this is becoming more important.

The other factor which wasn't addressed but seems to be very apparent in MCCPTA minds is getting access to more parent donations. High poverty schools have low to no PTA interactions, members paying dues to MCCPTA and donating for school activities. By balancing FARMS, MCCPTA is hoping that wealthier parents will open their pocketbooks more and give to them. You can make a case that the experience with POMS, new band uniforms, school dances, and other things that a PTA improves a child's experience in school but there has never been correlation let alone causation to a well funded POMS group and high school performance.

This is actually one of the best explanations of WHY this might be useful. Someone needs to sticky this post and continue to post it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone think the county is actually going to spend millions on buses and bus drivers? When there aren't enough teachers, and classrooms and schools are overcrowded? And for all those who think there are enough empty seats, please do send your children to Poolesville and Damascus, especially if you live down county and are going against traffic. I'd like my children to walk to school thank you.

I'll give you an example where the county does this.

My kid lives 0.7 miles from one Middle School. Sidewalks all the way, and she could easily walk to school.

She is zoned for a MS 1.8 miles away and takes the bus.

It would make much more sense for my kid to attend the closer MS. The one we're zoned for is 'better', but it's much more inconvenient, and it requires MCPS to offer a bus. Plus an activity bus three days a week.

My kid lives in part of the DCC that doesn't have a high-school near it anymore. They're bussed to the closest high-school as are the 12345 kids that live in this part of the county. The kids who live across the street from the HS are bussed to another nearby HS because there's no room in the one that's close to them. Their bus ride however is much shorter than the bus ride my kids have. The point is being assigned to the closest HS isn't always the most sensible thing the county can do. It sometimes make more sense to look at the bigger picture.

We live in Kensington near Einstein but kids get bussed halfway across the county to Walter Johnson. We love it, but if the BoE rezones us for Einstein our property values will tank!!

And this is what it comes down to, really. It's not really about what's best for ALL the kids academically. Let's be honest here.

Of COURSE that's what this is about! These ridiculous dog whistle speeches about busing and not wanting to break up school communities is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. Just be honest about it.

Yep totally agree.

I don't think anyone is dog-whistling about property values...they are saying it outright.

[Anonymous]

I don't understand why it's considered a bad thing to be worried about your property value, I can bet every dollar I have that the ones salivating at the thought of chance of getting rezoned to a better school are the parents who will get equity windfall due to this shuffling. It comes down to money on both sides, let's not pretend the other side is doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand why it's considered a bad thing to be worried about your property value, I can bet every dollar I have that the ones salivating at the thought of chance of getting rezoned to a better school are the parents who will get equity windfall due to this shuffling. It comes down to money on both sides, let's not pretend the other side is doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

You may worry about your property value all you want. But it's not a factor in school boundary decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone think the county is actually going to spend millions on buses and bus drivers? When there aren't enough teachers, and classrooms and schools are overcrowded? And for all those who think there are enough empty seats, please do send your children to Poolesville and Damascus, especially if you live down county and are going against traffic. I'd like my children to walk to school thank you.

I'll give you an example where the county does this.

My kid lives 0.7 miles from one Middle School. Sidewalks all the way, and she could easily walk to school.

She is zoned for a MS 1.8 miles away and takes the bus.

It would make much more sense for my kid to attend the closer MS. The one we're zoned for is 'better', but it's much more inconvenient, and it requires MCPS to offer a bus. Plus an activity bus three days a week.

My kid lives in part of the DCC that doesn't have a high-school near it anymore. They're bussed to the closest high-school as are the 12345 kids that live in this part of the county. The kids who live across the street from the HS are bussed to another nearby HS because there's no room in the one that's close to them. Their bus ride however is much shorter than the bus ride my kids have. The point is being assigned to the closest HS isn't always the most sensible thing the county can do. It sometimes make more sense to look at the bigger picture.

We live in Kensington near Einstein but kids get bussed halfway across the county to Walter Johnson. We love it, but if the BoE rezones us for Einstein our property values will tank!!

And this is what it comes down to, really. It's not really about what's best for ALL the kids academically. Let's be honest here.

Of COURSE that's what this is about! These ridiculous dog whistle speeches about busing and not wanting to break up school communities is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. Just be honest about it.

Yep totally agree.

I don't think anyone is dog-whistling about property values...they are saying it outright.

No.. some people are not outright about it. Most people publicly won't say that outright because it makes them look bad. Some people can't even admit to it privately.

Of course, as home owners, we care about property values. I care about my property value which at the moment is about $730K according to zillow. But do I think that's the most important thing? No. I think boundaries need to change to relieve overcrowding. And if they can draw boundaries that make sense in terms of all four factors, then they should.

The issue here is that not all four factors can be met in equal measure. One of them usually gives or takes a higher priority. And, as we we are seeing in FCPS as well as HCPS, balancing out FARMs rate is a high priority since studies have shown that lower income kids do better in schools with lower FARMs rate.

The overarching goal here is to alleviate overcrowding, so boundaries will need to be redrawn. Period. End of story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Studies actually do not show that low income students do better in wealthier schools. There was one study that showed slight gains in low income kids attending schools with 10% low income but those gains evaporated when the % of low income kids hit 20%. These studies also crossed districts where there were significant resource gaps between the low income and high income schools which is not the case in MCPS. MCPS knows that the achievement gap persists regardless of the wealth of the school. They already see the data that low income kids at Watkins Mills do better than low income kids at QO even though QO has much lower FAEMS. They know that low income kids do the worst at PBES even though PBES has the lowest FARMS in the entire DCC. Low income kids fail in the "vaulted" W schools too. This why schools like WJ and Wootton rank 8 rather than 10 on GS. MCPS own staff has done research into the nuances of poverty and school performance. Their own report showed that the wealth of the school was not a predictive factor for PARCC scores for low income kids. What they did fins as a predictive indicator was the number of persistent years a child lived in poverty. The more years a child was eligible for FARMS, the lower the score.

So its an entirely bull shit and misinformation to claim that balancing SES is to raise scores or academic for low income kids.

What is a factor though is school climate. MCPS found that school climate surveys from teachers were much lower in high poverty schools. School safety concerns were much higher. It was harder to retain experienced teachers and they did find a correlation between noice teachers and lower ELA scores. By bussing kids to achieve reduce the concentration of FARMS kids in any one school, MCPS is seeking to improve the school climate. With restorative justice and the policy not to remove disruptive or dangerous students, this is becoming more important.

The other factor which wasn't addressed but seems to be very apparent in MCCPTA minds is getting access to more parent donations. High poverty schools have low to no PTA interactions, members paying dues to MCCPTA and donating for school activities. By balancing FARMS, MCCPTA is hoping that wealthier parents will open their pocketbooks more and give to them. You can make a case that the experience with POMS, new band uniforms, school dances, and other things that a PTA improves a child's experience in school but there has never been correlation let alone causation to a well funded POMS group and high school performance.


This is actually one of the best explanations of WHY this might be useful. Someone needs to sticky this post and continue to post it.

I agree but the facts are not hyperbolic enough to justify in most people's mind the cost of bussing. Bussing (whether you are for or against) has a high cost. It does reduce property taxes which reduce county revenues. It does diminish neighborhood connections and makes people less tied to an area. Its historically been one of the most divisive actions ever taken in public education and it failed pretty miserably taking down many school systems in the past. Maybe this will not happen this time, maybe other circumstances are different but its a high risk and high cost endeavor.

If there is no gain in academic performance and the only measurable gains are in school climate, teacher morale and more PTA donations/membership dues in formerly higher poverty schools then its an even harder sell. This is why I am guessing there are all these people trying to claim its will reduce the achievement gap when they perfectly well that it will not budget the dial one bit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:. With restorative justice and the policy not to remove disruptive or dangerous students, this is becoming more important.

The other factor which wasn't addressed but seems to be very apparent in MCCPTA minds is getting access to more parent donations. High poverty schools have low to no PTA interactions, members paying dues to MCCPTA and donating for school activities. By balancing FARMS, MCCPTA is hoping that wealthier parents will open their pocketbooks more and give to them. You can make a case that the experience with POMS, new band uniforms, school dances, and other things that a PTA improves a child's experience in school but there has never been correlation let alone causation to a well funded POMS group and high school performance.

So, the disruptive and dangerous students get moved to the "good schools"? Everyone gets their own share of these students. Also MCCPTA is basing their decision on hope that wealthier parents will open their pocketbooks more? Okayyyyyyy.... it'll only take a few years to prove that assumption wrong. People donate to PTAs when it helps their own kids in some way, not otherwise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:. With restorative justice and the policy not to remove disruptive or dangerous students, this is becoming more important.

The other factor which wasn't addressed but seems to be very apparent in MCCPTA minds is getting access to more parent donations. High poverty schools have low to no PTA interactions, members paying dues to MCCPTA and donating for school activities. By balancing FARMS, MCCPTA is hoping that wealthier parents will open their pocketbooks more and give to them. You can make a case that the experience with POMS, new band uniforms, school dances, and other things that a PTA improves a child's experience in school but there has never been correlation let alone causation to a well funded POMS group and high school performance.

So, the disruptive and dangerous students get moved to the "good schools"? Everyone gets their own share of these students. Also MCCPTA is basing their decision on hope that wealthier parents will open their pocketbooks more? Okayyyyyyy.... it'll only take a few years to prove that assumption wrong. People donate to PTAs when it helps their own kids in some way, not otherwise.

Yes, their own kids would be attending the schools in question and would therefore benefit from those PTAs having greater membership.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone think the county is actually going to spend millions on buses and bus drivers? When there aren't enough teachers, and classrooms and schools are overcrowded? And for all those who think there are enough empty seats, please do send your children to Poolesville and Damascus, especially if you live down county and are going against traffic. I'd like my children to walk to school thank you.

I'll give you an example where the county does this.

My kid lives 0.7 miles from one Middle School. Sidewalks all the way, and she could easily walk to school.

She is zoned for a MS 1.8 miles away and takes the bus.

It would make much more sense for my kid to attend the closer MS. The one we're zoned for is 'better', but it's much more inconvenient, and it requires MCPS to offer a bus. Plus an activity bus three days a week.

My kid lives in part of the DCC that doesn't have a high-school near it anymore. They're bussed to the closest high-school as are the 12345 kids that live in this part of the county. The kids who live across the street from the HS are bussed to another nearby HS because there's no room in the one that's close to them. Their bus ride however is much shorter than the bus ride my kids have. The point is being assigned to the closest HS isn't always the most sensible thing the county can do. It sometimes make more sense to look at the bigger picture.

We live in Kensington near Einstein but kids get bussed halfway across the county to Walter Johnson. We love it, but if the BoE rezones us for Einstein our property values will tank!!

And this is what it comes down to, really. It's not really about what's best for ALL the kids academically. Let's be honest here.

Of COURSE that's what this is about! These ridiculous dog whistle speeches about busing and not wanting to break up school communities is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. Just be honest about it.

Yep totally agree.

I don't think anyone is dog-whistling about property values...they are saying it outright.

No.. some people are not outright about it. Most people publicly won't say that outright because it makes them look bad. Some people can't even admit to it privately.

Of course, as home owners, we care about property values. I care about my property value which at the moment is about $730K according to zillow. But do I think that's the most important thing? No. I think boundaries need to change to relieve overcrowding. And if they can draw boundaries that make sense in terms of all four factors, then they should.

The issue here is that not all four factors can be met in equal measure. One of them usually gives or takes a higher priority. And, as we we are seeing in FCPS as well as HCPS, balancing out FARMs rate is a high priority since studies have shown that lower income kids do better in schools with lower FARMs rate.

The overarching goal here is to alleviate overcrowding, so boundaries will need to be redrawn. Period. End of story.

So you live in a $730K house? Why not sell your home and move to a lower income neighborhood. There are lots of places where you could go. Take the extra money you have and bolster up the PTA. You'll feel great about it, and your kids will be fine! Why do you choose to stay in your $730K home?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Also MCCPTA is basing their decision on hope that wealthier parents will open their pocketbooks more?

MCCPTA is a joke these days. Lynne makes stuff up and testifies to whatever the students want (and frequently gives her limited testimony time to them).

Newsflash: these students don't have fully developed frontal lobes, cannot vote, do not own property in MC, and should have no bearing on any decisions. Unfortunately, none of the grownups are behaving like grownups. The Board needs to do actual oversite (and why hasn't the MCPS staff done their job on this either?): why are impoverished schools, that receive $4,000 more per student, still failing? And, what has solved this in other communities?Because while I am all for diversity of race and socio-economic make up in our schools, I do not believe that just changing the make up of a school will have an impact on impoverished students who are failing to thrive.