MD Beltway Widening..

[Anonymous]

The problem with mass transit is that all the lines in MD go through DC to get to VA. It's not efficient.

IMO it would be helpful and get cars off the road if they made the purple line go to Tyson’s.

That would be awesome. Why haven’t there been any public transportation options between MD and VA? Hell even a bus would be awesome. At least I could browse DCUM while sitting in traffic...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Build more lanes and more people will drive there. Let’s face it, it’ll never get better.

It is called "induced demand" - there is no such thing as building more lanes permanently relieving traffic. The solution is to get a good rail system in place from Frederick to Shady Grove and Union Station. And Bus Rapid Transit dedicated lanes down to Friendship Heights and Silver Spring.

For example, the MARC Brunswick Line. Except for with trains that run all day long, in both directions, and also on weekends.

Why can't we do both? I'm in favor of public transportation and highway widening. Population is growing in this area, so there is more demand. Even if everyone magically took public transport, we still need highways for commercial vehicles. Your plumber and the Giant delivery truck can't take Metro.

We've been building highways. And building, and building, and building. We know what happens when you build more highways to fix congestion: it doesn't work. Stop wasting money on it. Put the money into transit. (And then there will be plenty of room on the highways we already have for the plumber and the Giant delivery truck.)

? Where do you live?

In the United States of America.

This is a conversation about Montgomery County, Maryland. Unless you live here, your experience with highway building is irrelevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Build more lanes and more people will drive there. Let’s face it, it’ll never get better.

It is called "induced demand" - there is no such thing as building more lanes permanently relieving traffic. The solution is to get a good rail system in place from Frederick to Shady Grove and Union Station. And Bus Rapid Transit dedicated lanes down to Friendship Heights and Silver Spring.

For example, the MARC Brunswick Line. Except for with trains that run all day long, in both directions, and also on weekends.

Why can't we do both? I'm in favor of public transportation and highway widening. Population is growing in this area, so there is more demand. Even if everyone magically took public transport, we still need highways for commercial vehicles. Your plumber and the Giant delivery truck can't take Metro.

We've been building highways. And building, and building, and building. We know what happens when you build more highways to fix congestion: it doesn't work. Stop wasting money on it. Put the money into transit. (And then there will be plenty of room on the highways we already have for the plumber and the Giant delivery truck.)

? Where do you live?

In the United States of America.

This is a conversation about Montgomery County, Maryland. Unless you live here, your experience with highway building is irrelevant.

There are a lot of highways in Montgomery County, Maryland. A lot.

[Anonymous]

I remember when 270 was two lanes in each direction. It has been expanded numerous times. It is still congested.

Figure out a different way to grow, going to 16 or 20 lanes won't solve the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Build more lanes and more people will drive there. Let’s face it, it’ll never get better.

It is called "induced demand" - there is no such thing as building more lanes permanently relieving traffic. The solution is to get a good rail system in place from Frederick to Shady Grove and Union Station. And Bus Rapid Transit dedicated lanes down to Friendship Heights and Silver Spring.

For example, the MARC Brunswick Line. Except for with trains that run all day long, in both directions, and also on weekends.

Why can't we do both? I'm in favor of public transportation and highway widening. Population is growing in this area, so there is more demand. Even if everyone magically took public transport, we still need highways for commercial vehicles. Your plumber and the Giant delivery truck can't take Metro.

We've been building highways. And building, and building, and building. We know what happens when you build more highways to fix congestion: it doesn't work. Stop wasting money on it. Put the money into transit. (And then there will be plenty of room on the highways we already have for the plumber and the Giant delivery truck.)

? Where do you live?

In the United States of America.

This is a conversation about Montgomery County, Maryland. Unless you live here, your experience with highway building is irrelevant.

There are a lot of highways in Montgomery County, Maryland. A lot.

Using a loser definition of highway, I suppose that's true. But I'd also argue that there's limited high-capacity highways in MoCo.

MoCo has only one crossing over the Potomac. One. It has two limited-access freeways running east-west, and only one running north/south.

There's nothing that I would call a highway running into DC from MoCo. The closest things I suppose would be River (which stops being a highway well before making it DC line) and Clara Barton (a slow two lane road whose saving grace is a relative lack of stop lights).

MoCo has substantially limited road construction in order to deter development in some areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I remember when 270 was two lanes in each direction. It has been expanded numerous times. It is still congested.

Figure out a different way to grow, going to 16 or 20 lanes won't solve the problem.

You have a misconception. Yes, even though 270 has been widened several times, and it is still congested, you mistakenly think that other alternatives will solve the transportation problem. The reason that the highway is still congested is that the population of Montgomery County has also continued to grow. Whether you widen the highway or not, the population of the county will continue to grow. In 1980, the population of the county was 4.2M. In 2018, the population is just over 6.0M. That's 143% or 43% growth over 38 years. The reason that the highway is still congested is that the population has grown faster than the road and transit can accommodate. The county population is currently projected to continue to grow 0.33% to 0.8% annually. There is no way that mass transit alone can accommodate that volume of population growth. You are going to need a combination of mass transit upgrades and highway expansion to accommodate the growth.

There's no way around the problem that the Washington DC metro region is one of the fastest growing metropolitan regions of the US and we have to come up with ways to accommodate the influx of people. Mass transit alone is not going to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I remember when 270 was two lanes in each direction. It has been expanded numerous times. It is still congested.

Figure out a different way to grow, going to 16 or 20 lanes won't solve the problem.

You have a misconception. Yes, even though 270 has been widened several times, and it is still congested, you mistakenly think that other alternatives will solve the transportation problem. The reason that the highway is still congested is that the population of Montgomery County has also continued to grow. Whether you widen the highway or not, the population of the county will continue to grow. In 1980, the population of the county was 4.2M. In 2018, the population is just over 6.0M. That's 143% or 43% growth over 38 years. The reason that the highway is still congested is that the population has grown faster than the road and transit can accommodate. The county population is currently projected to continue to grow 0.33% to 0.8% annually. There is no way that mass transit alone can accommodate that volume of population growth. You are going to need a combination of mass transit upgrades and highway expansion to accommodate the growth.

There's no way around the problem that the Washington DC metro region is one of the fastest growing metropolitan regions of the US and we have to come up with ways to accommodate the influx of people. Mass transit alone is not going to do it.

The reason the highway is still congested is that when you make it easier and more convenient for people to drive, then more people drive.

We gotta stop thinking that bigger highways will fix congestion. They don't. They never have. And they cost a whole heck of a lot of money in the process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I remember when 270 was two lanes in each direction. It has been expanded numerous times. It is still congested.

Figure out a different way to grow, going to 16 or 20 lanes won't solve the problem.

You have a misconception. Yes, even though 270 has been widened several times, and it is still congested, you mistakenly think that other alternatives will solve the transportation problem. The reason that the highway is still congested is that the population of Montgomery County has also continued to grow. Whether you widen the highway or not, the population of the county will continue to grow. In 1980, the population of the county was 4.2M. In 2018, the population is just over 6.0M. That's 143% or 43% growth over 38 years. The reason that the highway is still congested is that the population has grown faster than the road and transit can accommodate. The county population is currently projected to continue to grow 0.33% to 0.8% annually. There is no way that mass transit alone can accommodate that volume of population growth. You are going to need a combination of mass transit upgrades and highway expansion to accommodate the growth.

There's no way around the problem that the Washington DC metro region is one of the fastest growing metropolitan regions of the US and we have to come up with ways to accommodate the influx of people. Mass transit alone is not going to do it.

Says who?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I remember when 270 was two lanes in each direction. It has been expanded numerous times. It is still congested.

Figure out a different way to grow, going to 16 or 20 lanes won't solve the problem.

You have a misconception. Yes, even though 270 has been widened several times, and it is still congested, you mistakenly think that other alternatives will solve the transportation problem. The reason that the highway is still congested is that the population of Montgomery County has also continued to grow. Whether you widen the highway or not, the population of the county will continue to grow. In 1980, the population of the county was 4.2M. In 2018, the population is just over 6.0M. That's 143% or 43% growth over 38 years. The reason that the highway is still congested is that the population has grown faster than the road and transit can accommodate. The county population is currently projected to continue to grow 0.33% to 0.8% annually. There is no way that mass transit alone can accommodate that volume of population growth. You are going to need a combination of mass transit upgrades and highway expansion to accommodate the growth.

There's no way around the problem that the Washington DC metro region is one of the fastest growing metropolitan regions of the US and we have to come up with ways to accommodate the influx of people. Mass transit alone is not going to do it.

The reason the highway is still congested is that when you make it easier and more convenient for people to drive, then more people drive.

We gotta stop thinking that bigger highways will fix congestion. They don't. They never have. And they cost a whole heck of a lot of money in the process.

Montgomery county has a thing called the adequate public facilities Ordinance. If the schools are too crowded then they don't allow more building. This pushes building further north into Clarksburg and Frederick. This puts more traffic on 270 and requires more and wider roads. We need to stop incentivizing people to move to the exurbs or we're never going to fix these problems. Let people build closer in, get rid of that adequate public facilities nonsense.

You can have one of these two:
1. More and wider highways and the adequate public facilities rules.
2. Fewer highways that aren't widened and no adequate public facilities rule.

I know that many in MoCo are NIMBY's that think they should be able to stop building if their school is at 120% capacity then also stop freeways from being mad wider but you can't do both. Explain where the new people will live and how they'll get to work if you do both.

[Anonymous]

https://patch.com/maryland/bethesda-chevychase/montgomery-county-ranks-3rd-population-growth-maryland

According to census estimates, in Montgomery County, the population increased by 0.4 percent between July 1, 2017, and July 1, 2018. The estimated population change was an increase of 4,323 people to 1,052,567. It ranked third for numeric growth in Maryland.

So think about that developers in Montgomery County have to build housing for 12 new people a day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I remember when 270 was two lanes in each direction. It has been expanded numerous times. It is still congested.

Figure out a different way to grow, going to 16 or 20 lanes won't solve the problem.

You have a misconception. Yes, even though 270 has been widened several times, and it is still congested, you mistakenly think that other alternatives will solve the transportation problem. The reason that the highway is still congested is that the population of Montgomery County has also continued to grow. Whether you widen the highway or not, the population of the county will continue to grow. In 1980, the population of the county was 4.2M. In 2018, the population is just over 6.0M. That's 143% or 43% growth over 38 years. The reason that the highway is still congested is that the population has grown faster than the road and transit can accommodate. The county population is currently projected to continue to grow 0.33% to 0.8% annually. There is no way that mass transit alone can accommodate that volume of population growth. You are going to need a combination of mass transit upgrades and highway expansion to accommodate the growth.

There's no way around the problem that the Washington DC metro region is one of the fastest growing metropolitan regions of the US and we have to come up with ways to accommodate the influx of people. Mass transit alone is not going to do it.

Somehow more populous regions in other parts of the country and world are able to accommodate many more inhabitants with fewer highways, lanes and cars. Look at just about any major Asian city as an example.

If you design for a car, you get cars.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I remember when 270 was two lanes in each direction. It has been expanded numerous times. It is still congested.

Figure out a different way to grow, going to 16 or 20 lanes won't solve the problem.

You have a misconception. Yes, even though 270 has been widened several times, and it is still congested, you mistakenly think that other alternatives will solve the transportation problem. The reason that the highway is still congested is that the population of Montgomery County has also continued to grow. Whether you widen the highway or not, the population of the county will continue to grow. In 1980, the population of the county was 4.2M. In 2018, the population is just over 6.0M. That's 143% or 43% growth over 38 years. The reason that the highway is still congested is that the population has grown faster than the road and transit can accommodate. The county population is currently projected to continue to grow 0.33% to 0.8% annually. There is no way that mass transit alone can accommodate that volume of population growth. You are going to need a combination of mass transit upgrades and highway expansion to accommodate the growth.

There's no way around the problem that the Washington DC metro region is one of the fastest growing metropolitan regions of the US and we have to come up with ways to accommodate the influx of people. Mass transit alone is not going to do it.

Somehow more populous regions in other parts of the country and world are able to accommodate many more inhabitants with fewer highways, lanes and cars. Look at just about any major Asian city as an example.

If you design for a car, you get cars.

Relative to other metropolitan areas, Washington DC has high transit ridership (3rd at 37.4%) and low miles of roadway per capita (10th lowest in the US proper). The only places with fewer miles of roadway are in California, NYC, and (surprisingly) Miami.

There are a lot of differences between the US and asian countries that make proper comparisons difficult. Compared to its peers in the US, the DMV is doing pretty well according to your metrics.

But, part of the reason why traffic is particularly bad here is that the roads are particularly bad. While mass transit is pretty good, relatively speaking, roads are poor. There's limited freeways going into the city from the north, the major bottlenecks that can cause serious backups when there's any sort of disruption (e.g., the bridges).

It's true- the DMV can't dig itself out of congestion by building more roads. Only a combination of mass transit and smart growth can make strong improvements there. But there's certainly room to make congestion a bit better with road construction, and in particular, make the road network more resilient to disruptions by creating multiple viable routes. Honestly, I think things like widening major routes, like 270, aren't great ideas. Induced demand will kick in (which I don't think is all bad- people have to live somewhere), so congestion will probably remain mostly unchanged. But, disruptions will lead to even worse congestion along those routes.

There's a practical reality that a lot of people are going to end up in the suburbs because options in the city either too expensive, or simply don't meet the desires of homeowners due to schools, yards, etc. There's a practical limit to how dense some regions in the inner suburbs will get, which isn't going to be fully driven by what's most efficient. So, realistically we have to accept there will be a lot of commuters in the outer suburbs, and we're going to have to accommodate them somehow. Transit improvements will help, but there's only so much you can do 20+ miles out of downtown. Roads have to be part of the solution.

[Anonymous]

There's no "practical limit". There might be a politically-feasible limit, but that's an entirely different thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There's no "practical limit". There might be a politically-feasible limit, but that's an entirely different thing.

You don't think we're practically limited by what is politically feasible?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There's no "practical limit". There might be a politically-feasible limit, but that's an entirely different thing.

You don't think we're practically limited by what is politically feasible?

What's politically feasible can change.

Unless your point is the tautology that it's only possible to do what it's possible to do?