Jefferson Academy Kool-Aid

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:15:28 -- Where is the DCPS test-in STEM program? How does one apply?

McKinley Tech
http://www.mckinleytech.org/index.jsp

its not a top school. Not by a long shot.

I thought we were talking about MSs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, as the middle school population grows (or potential middle school population), schools on the rise start to attract other well prepared students from OOB (see the Maury parent comments from earlier). It will take brave and hardworking parents to get the ball rolling, but it sounds like there is a principal at Jefferson willing to work with them.

Also, this is all a bit insulting to current Jefferson students who are proficient/advanced. There is already a cohort.

All 15 of them?

Taking this question seriously. I'm not going to look up the exact numbers right now, but if you assume Jefferson is roughly 300 kids and 12% are proficient or advanced, that's 36 kids. Spread over 3 grades, that's 12 per grade. Not a huge number but certainly enough for advanced classes which I know they have in at least math. Brent kids could easily double that. If you want all proficient/advanced kids in your entire class, you are in the wrong neighborhood...

I looked it up, by grade. ELA only, which is the better score with 16% proficient or advanced (math is 9%). Of course these kids are all a year older now.

6th - 11 of 97 students;
7th - 16 of 84 students;
8th - 17 of 96 students.

Let's not play games. Of the 9% proficiency in math, which is a low bar, 0% are 5's, meaning "advanced." So even if we double the proficiency percentage to 18% with this hypothetical cohort of Brent students, that's still damn few who are truly advanced and a pathetic overall proficiency rate. And what of the optics and other social issues when the overwhelmingly white kids are placed in the "advanced" classes. Nothing there to worry about.

There are only a small handful of schools with >%15 over 5 and none with >%20 over 5. Even the best schools are more like in the 15% 5 range. That seems to be the pattern in math throughout DC but the number of advanced students in struggling schools is eye opening. Over 1/3 of schools have 0 advanced math students and roughly the same number have 1 or 2 students scoring 5 on math.

So your point is that the reconstitution of Jefferson with much fanfare as an Academy was a farce, a Potemkin Village if you will, to the extent that it's just another shitty MS that can't attract or retain higher-performing students? When simply trying to get your students to a proficiency level is your principal mission, and you are falling woefully short in that regard, then Henderson, Grosso and Allen might try to view the skepticism of Brent parents with a greater degree of understanding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, as the middle school population grows (or potential middle school population), schools on the rise start to attract other well prepared students from OOB (see the Maury parent comments from earlier). It will take brave and hardworking parents to get the ball rolling, but it sounds like there is a principal at Jefferson willing to work with them.

Also, this is all a bit insulting to current Jefferson students who are proficient/advanced. There is already a cohort.

All 15 of them?

Taking this question seriously. I'm not going to look up the exact numbers right now, but if you assume Jefferson is roughly 300 kids and 12% are proficient or advanced, that's 36 kids. Spread over 3 grades, that's 12 per grade. Not a huge number but certainly enough for advanced classes which I know they have in at least math. Brent kids could easily double that. If you want all proficient/advanced kids in your entire class, you are in the wrong neighborhood...

I looked it up, by grade. ELA only, which is the better score with 16% proficient or advanced (math is 9%). Of course these kids are all a year older now.

6th - 11 of 97 students;
7th - 16 of 84 students;
8th - 17 of 96 students.

Let's not play games. Of the 9% proficiency in math, which is a low bar, 0% are 5's, meaning "advanced." So even if we double the proficiency percentage to 18% with this hypothetical cohort of Brent students, that's still damn few who are truly advanced and a pathetic overall proficiency rate. And what of the optics and other social issues when the overwhelmingly white kids are placed in the "advanced" classes. Nothing there to worry about.

There are only a small handful of schools with >%15 over 5 and none with >%20 over 5. Even the best schools are more like in the 15% 5 range. That seems to be the pattern in math throughout DC but the number of advanced students in struggling schools is eye opening. Over 1/3 of schools have 0 advanced math students and roughly the same number have 1 or 2 students scoring 5 on math.

So your point is that the reconstitution of Jefferson with much fanfare as an Academy was a farce, a Potemkin Village if you will, to the extent that it's just another shitty MS that can't attract or retain higher-performing students? When simply trying to get your students to a proficiency level is your principal mission, and you are falling woefully short in that regard, then Henderson, Grosso and Allen might try to view the skepticism of Brent parents with a greater degree of understanding.

no -- much like you, I don't have a clue where you're going with this

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not set up a comprehensive middle school on Capitol Hill spread out on two campuses? 6th grade at Stuart-Hobson and 7th and 8th grade at Elliott-Hine. Feeders would be JO Wilson, LT, Watkins, Brent, Maury, Tyler, SWS, Payne, Miner, Van Ness, and Amidon-Bowen. There could be a Spanish immersion track to support students from Tyler Bilingual as well as Hill families from LAMB and Mundo Verde looking for a neighborhood school for the MS years. Turn Jefferson into a test-in STEM MS.

Great question for Henderson, Grosso and Allen.

This idea has been presented to city leaders and considered in various forms many many times. The leaders expressed a desire to standardize the entire system. Move fifth grade from Hobson into Watkins; dismantle the parts of the Cluster with SWS and Montessori being set up as stand alone; eliminate education campuses and set up regular ES/MS schools, etc.

With regard to Jefferson being a test in program, DCPS has a test in STEM program, and it is underutilized and not that strong. Also, what would you do with the kids from Southwest attending Jefferson in this new scenario? Have them drive another mile past Hobson to Eliot Hine (2 miles away versus half a mile for Jefferson) in order to cater to Hill families that are unwilling to enroll their kids in DCPS middle schools?

As Charles Allen says, we need everyone to pull in the same direction. The only way that happens is for (most of) Ward 6 to have one middle school - bonding everyone together and creating mutually shared goals plus economies of scale and critical mass of advanced students. How exactly to get there is the task at hand.

Charles Allen should spend less time talking and more time proposing actual solutions. Then again his mentor was Tommy Wells.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can't get there as long as there are more politically-connected Ward 5, 7 and 8 parents on board at Stuart-Hobson than Ward 6 folk, and the Cluster endures.

what's that based on? you pulled that assumption out of something

I agree that ward 5, 7 and 8 parents like the Hill schools and Stuart Hobson exactly the way they are, and would make any change very difficult.

that's too bad -- both Ludlow Taylor and Watkins are building larger IB cohorts which you can see in grades 2-4 if you're on the inside and not obviously guessing. You do know that plenty of OOB at Watkins may just mean a family that lives nearby but IB for Miner or Payne? They're still OOB at SH.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, as the middle school population grows (or potential middle school population), schools on the rise start to attract other well prepared students from OOB (see the Maury parent comments from earlier). It will take brave and hardworking parents to get the ball rolling, but it sounds like there is a principal at Jefferson willing to work with them.

Also, this is all a bit insulting to current Jefferson students who are proficient/advanced. There is already a cohort.

All 15 of them?

Taking this question seriously. I'm not going to look up the exact numbers right now, but if you assume Jefferson is roughly 300 kids and 12% are proficient or advanced, that's 36 kids. Spread over 3 grades, that's 12 per grade. Not a huge number but certainly enough for advanced classes which I know they have in at least math. Brent kids could easily double that. If you want all proficient/advanced kids in your entire class, you are in the wrong neighborhood...

I looked it up, by grade. ELA only, which is the better score with 16% proficient or advanced (math is 9%). Of course these kids are all a year older now.

6th - 11 of 97 students;
7th - 16 of 84 students;
8th - 17 of 96 students.

Let's not play games. Of the 9% proficiency in math, which is a low bar, 0% are 5's, meaning "advanced." So even if we double the proficiency percentage to 18% with this hypothetical cohort of Brent students, that's still damn few who are truly advanced and a pathetic overall proficiency rate. And what of the optics and other social issues when the overwhelmingly white kids are placed in the "advanced" classes. Nothing there to worry about.

There are only a small handful of schools with >%15 over 5 and none with >%20 over 5. Even the best schools are more like in the 15% 5 range. That seems to be the pattern in math throughout DC but the number of advanced students in struggling schools is eye opening. Over 1/3 of schools have 0 advanced math students and roughly the same number have 1 or 2 students scoring 5 on math.

So your point is that the reconstitution of Jefferson with much fanfare as an Academy was a farce, a Potemkin Village if you will, to the extent that it's just another shitty MS that can't attract or retain higher-performing students? When simply trying to get your students to a proficiency level is your principal mission, and you are falling woefully short in that regard, then Henderson, Grosso and Allen might try to view the skepticism of Brent parents with a greater degree of understanding.

no -- much like you, I don't have a clue where you're going with this

Using the metric cited above, which I'll assume to be correct, Jefferson is a struggling school. My seven year old loves emoticons as well.

[Anonymous]

I really hate that we're talking about "shitty" schools. I really don't know that the test scores reflect how good or bad a school is in DC. Rather it reflects the social and economic capital of the families that send their children there. Median Growth Percentile has been suggested to do a much better job at reflecting the performance of a school. Jefferson's scores there are a little better than Brent's, although by this metric, all our kids should go to DC Prep Edgewood's middle school.

I wish people would stop talking about not sending their kids to bad schools when what they should be saying is they don't want to send their kids to schools with a lot of poor kids who aren't performing at grade level. Which is fair enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why not set up a comprehensive middle school on Capitol Hill spread out on two campuses? 6th grade at Stuart-Hobson and 7th and 8th grade at Elliott-Hine. Feeders would be JO Wilson, LT, Watkins, Brent, Maury, Tyler, SWS, Payne, Miner, Van Ness, and Amidon-Bowen. There could be a Spanish immersion track to support students from Tyler Bilingual as well as Hill families from LAMB and Mundo Verde looking for a neighborhood school for the MS years. Turn Jefferson into a test-in STEM MS.

Great question for Henderson, Grosso and Allen.

This idea has been presented to city leaders and considered in various forms many many times. The leaders expressed a desire to standardize the entire system. Move fifth grade from Hobson into Watkins; dismantle the parts of the Cluster with SWS and Montessori being set up as stand alone; eliminate education campuses and set up regular ES/MS schools, etc.

With regard to Jefferson being a test in program, DCPS has a test in STEM program, and it is underutilized and not that strong. Also, what would you do with the kids from Southwest attending Jefferson in this new scenario? Have them drive another mile past Hobson to Eliot Hine (2 miles away versus half a mile for Jefferson) in order to cater to Hill families that are unwilling to enroll their kids in DCPS middle schools?

As Charles Allen says, we need everyone to pull in the same direction. The only way that happens is for (most of) Ward 6 to have one middle school - bonding everyone together and creating mutually shared goals plus economies of scale and critical mass of advanced students. How exactly to get there is the task at hand.

Charles Allen should spend less time talking and more time proposing actual solutions. Then again his mentor was Tommy Wells.

During Wells's campaign for mayor he took some pretty bold stances with regard to schools. I get the frustration with Wells, but I saw him come around on the issue.

Politicians should lead, but there is no one who can sort out the MS mess on Capitol Hill. Fenty lost office because he was too far in front of the issues, and the lesson Allen and others learned is that you must bend the curve and not break it. Plus asking for huge disruptive changes will satisfy a potential group of voters only if it works really quick. incremental changes, like additions to Hobson, satisfy current votes today.

Further, Wells and Allen do not have enough authority to actually make changes. They are cheerleaders and organizers. The only ones with power is the Mayor and Chancellor - and voters. Right now Ward Six voters pull in a every directions and they are negative on the whole situation. Where is the upside for a politician in that scenario?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can't get there as long as there are more politically-connected Ward 5, 7 and 8 parents on board at Stuart-Hobson than Ward 6 folk, and the Cluster endures.

what's that based on? you pulled that assumption out of something

I agree that ward 5, 7 and 8 parents like the Hill schools and Stuart Hobson exactly the way they are, and would make any change very difficult.

that's too bad -- both Ludlow Taylor and Watkins are building larger IB cohorts which you can see in grades 2-4 if you're on the inside and not obviously guessing. You do know that plenty of OOB at Watkins may just mean a family that lives nearby but IB for Miner or Payne? They're still OOB at SH.

It has been reported that upwards of 45 percent of Watkins is from Wards 7 and 8, although that info may be a year or two out of date. Even so, this has a pour over effect in terms of SH. I'll not muddy the waters with regard to our friends in Ward 9.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really hate that we're talking about "shitty" schools. I really don't know that the test scores reflect how good or bad a school is in DC. Rather it reflects the social and economic capital of the families that send their children there. Median Growth Percentile has been suggested to do a much better job at reflecting the performance of a school. Jefferson's scores there are a little better than Brent's, although by this metric, all our kids should go to DC Prep Edgewood's middle school.

I wish people would stop talking about not sending their kids to bad schools when what they should be saying is they don't want to send their kids to schools with a lot of poor kids who aren't performing at grade level. Which is fair enough.

Bingo! the first part at least. The sad truth about the second part is that the students without the poverty barrier will do fine even when forced to slum it with the poors. This whole notion of cohorts is silly -- DCPS teaches at grade level no matter the grade level. Only in MS does SEM come into play at some schools and it's not a terribly high bar but better than nothing. The downside is that DCPS doesn't really care if your child is beyond grade level. They do care if your child is below.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can't get there as long as there are more politically-connected Ward 5, 7 and 8 parents on board at Stuart-Hobson than Ward 6 folk, and the Cluster endures.

what's that based on? you pulled that assumption out of something

I agree that ward 5, 7 and 8 parents like the Hill schools and Stuart Hobson exactly the way they are, and would make any change very difficult.

that's too bad -- both Ludlow Taylor and Watkins are building larger IB cohorts which you can see in grades 2-4 if you're on the inside and not obviously guessing. You do know that plenty of OOB at Watkins may just mean a family that lives nearby but IB for Miner or Payne? They're still OOB at SH.

It has been reported that upwards of 45 percent of Watkins is from Wards 7 and 8, although that info may be a year or two out of date. Even so, this has a pour over effect in terms of SH. I'll not muddy the waters with regard to our friends in Ward 9.

I'm sorry -- you lost me at "It's been reported. . ."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really hate that we're talking about "shitty" schools. I really don't know that the test scores reflect how good or bad a school is in DC. Rather it reflects the social and economic capital of the families that send their children there. Median Growth Percentile has been suggested to do a much better job at reflecting the performance of a school. Jefferson's scores there are a little better than Brent's, although by this metric, all our kids should go to DC Prep Edgewood's middle school.

I wish people would stop talking about not sending their kids to bad schools when what they should be saying is they don't want to send their kids to schools with a lot of poor kids who aren't performing at grade level. Which is fair enough.

Ah yes, the beloved you must hate the poor kids card. That coupled with the nonsense about MGP being evidence that Jefferson is somehow doing a better job than Brent, and the defense of Councilman Wells, who fought tooth-and-nail to keep Eastern in Ward 6, but fecklessly ran from the debates around the Ward 6 Middle School Plan, is too much of the Tropical Punch flavor of the day. There are plenty of poor kids capable of performing in grade level. Attack the issue at the elementary school level with novel approaches, or even those more tried and true ones at Kipp and DC Prep. But don't insult us by pretending everything's okie-dokie at Jefferson just because a few parents are saying they might send their kids there a couple of years from now. I've heard the same thing now for the past seven years. DCPS and dilettantes like Grosso and Allen are counting on parents to gentrify schools so that they can ignore the bigger issues. Hell, Grosso can't remember whether modernizing Jefferson is a priority or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really hate that we're talking about "shitty" schools. I really don't know that the test scores reflect how good or bad a school is in DC. Rather it reflects the social and economic capital of the families that send their children there. Median Growth Percentile has been suggested to do a much better job at reflecting the performance of a school. Jefferson's scores there are a little better than Brent's, although by this metric, all our kids should go to DC Prep Edgewood's middle school.

I wish people would stop talking about not sending their kids to bad schools when what they should be saying is they don't want to send their kids to schools with a lot of poor kids who aren't performing at grade level. Which is fair enough.

Ah yes, the beloved you must hate the poor kids card. That coupled with the nonsense about MGP being evidence that Jefferson is somehow doing a better job than Brent, and the defense of Councilman Wells, who fought tooth-and-nail to keep Eastern in Ward 6, but fecklessly ran from the debates around the Ward 6 Middle School Plan, is too much of the Tropical Punch flavor of the day. There are plenty of poor kids capable of performing in grade level. Attack the issue at the elementary school level with novel approaches, or even those more tried and true ones at Kipp and DC Prep. But don't insult us by pretending everything's okie-dokie at Jefferson just because a few parents are saying they might send their kids there a couple of years from now. I've heard the same thing now for the past seven years. DCPS and dilettantes like Grosso and Allen are counting on parents to gentrify schools so that they can ignore the bigger issues. Hell, Grosso can't remember whether modernizing Jefferson is a priority or not.

Where -- I'm not seeing much of it in DC. Seems like more of an exception than a rule.

on the modernization issue and Grosso -- it's empirically not a priority by Council standards, but they're mostly ignoring their own standards anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really hate that we're talking about "shitty" schools. I really don't know that the test scores reflect how good or bad a school is in DC. Rather it reflects the social and economic capital of the families that send their children there. Median Growth Percentile has been suggested to do a much better job at reflecting the performance of a school. Jefferson's scores there are a little better than Brent's, although by this metric, all our kids should go to DC Prep Edgewood's middle school.

I wish people would stop talking about not sending their kids to bad schools when what they should be saying is they don't want to send their kids to schools with a lot of poor kids who aren't performing at grade level. Which is fair enough.

Ah yes, the beloved you must hate the poor kids card. That coupled with the nonsense about MGP being evidence that Jefferson is somehow doing a better job than Brent, and the defense of Councilman Wells, who fought tooth-and-nail to keep Eastern in Ward 6, but fecklessly ran from the debates around the Ward 6 Middle School Plan, is too much of the Tropical Punch flavor of the day. There are plenty of poor kids capable of performing in grade level. Attack the issue at the elementary school level with novel approaches, or even those more tried and true ones at Kipp and DC Prep. But don't insult us by pretending everything's okie-dokie at Jefferson just because a few parents are saying they might send their kids there a couple of years from now. I've heard the same thing now for the past seven years. DCPS and dilettantes like Grosso and Allen are counting on parents to gentrify schools so that they can ignore the bigger issues. Hell, Grosso can't remember whether modernizing Jefferson is a priority or not.

Hmmm... This is quite an unsubstantiated rant. I don't at all think it's a great thing that kids aren't performing at grade level. But I just don't think the school is necessarily to blame. What metric would you suggest we use to compare schools that factors in where they're starting from coming in? If your issue is you don't want your kid(s) among kids who aren't performing at grade level, say so. But stop pinning it on the school without providing evidence. Brent sure hasn't solved the performance gap issue either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really hate that we're talking about "shitty" schools. I really don't know that the test scores reflect how good or bad a school is in DC. Rather it reflects the social and economic capital of the families that send their children there. Median Growth Percentile has been suggested to do a much better job at reflecting the performance of a school. Jefferson's scores there are a little better than Brent's, although by this metric, all our kids should go to DC Prep Edgewood's middle school.

I wish people would stop talking about not sending their kids to bad schools when what they should be saying is they don't want to send their kids to schools with a lot of poor kids who aren't performing at grade level. Which is fair enough.

But they are shitty schools. It's not just the kids, but the fact that being poor means you have fewer access to resources, and hence shitty schools (no matter who enrolls there.) Bad teachers, bad administration, bad facilities. It's not true that your kid will do fine there just by dint of being high SES - that's your white privilege speaking. Your kid will have to go to a crappy school, because poor people get crappy things (the definition of being poor) and may suffer, just like the poor kids. Not as badly (because again, privilege) but to pretend like their mere presence is what changes a bad school into a good school is pretty offensive. It's a product of income inequality plus gentrification that makes this self-evident. In the same way that moving into a run-down house doesn't make it a nice house just because you're rich, sending your rich kid to a shitty, poor school doesn't turn it into a good school.