Another article about the magnet programs in Washington Post

[Anonymous]

For those worried about the magnets being watered down, aren't there many qualified kids who don't quite make the cut? Would it be so bad if, for example, the HGCs served the top 7% of kids in the county rather than the top 3%?

Honestly, I think the best solution here is to keep the HGCs as they are, but to make sure that ALL schools have acceleration available for the kids in that 90 - 97% range. That would sweep up a lot of URMs as well as middle class white kids who are not "highly gifted" but who can handle more acceleration than is currently provided.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about - Year round school for poor URM students starting from pre-K? These students must get into gifted programs to get into 10 month of regular school schedule.

This will bridge the achievement gap in my opinion.

You want to pass a law with different school attendance requirements depending on the student's race/ethnicity and the student's family's income? Really?

And would this requirement apply to the kids of my neighbors, who are African-Americans with a law degree and an MBA, respectively? Please explain.

Well, we are talking about changing the admissions criteria for magnets based on race/ethnicity and family income, are we not? So, why not change the attendance requirement for schools as well?

I don't think we ARE talking about changing the admissions criteria. I think we're talking about ensuring that we're capturing all of the "highly gifted" kids irrespective of race/ethnicity or family income. Right now the HGC and other magnets programs are wildly disproportionate to the population of the district. If we assume true giftedness (rather than just good coaching) occurs at a similar rate in each group, then we clearly have a problem with identifying gifted kids from URM groups. The idea isn't that MCPS would lower the bar. The idea is that there are kids who would clear the bar but are not currently being identified.

The alternative is that we just accept that our "gifted" program is really a program for high achieving but not necessarily gifted kids.

New person, are you saying that the kids are not identified because they don't apply? or are you saying not lower (or raise) the bar but have a different bar?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about - Year round school for poor URM students starting from pre-K? These students must get into gifted programs to get into 10 month of regular school schedule.

This will bridge the achievement gap in my opinion.

You want to pass a law with different school attendance requirements depending on the student's race/ethnicity and the student's family's income? Really?

And would this requirement apply to the kids of my neighbors, who are African-Americans with a law degree and an MBA, respectively? Please explain.

Well, we are talking about changing the admissions criteria for magnets based on race/ethnicity and family income, are we not? So, why not change the attendance requirement for schools as well?

I don't think we ARE talking about changing the admissions criteria. I think we're talking about ensuring that we're capturing all of the "highly gifted" kids irrespective of race/ethnicity or family income. Right now the HGC and other magnets programs are wildly disproportionate to the population of the district. If we assume true giftedness (rather than just good coaching) occurs at a similar rate in each group, then we clearly have a problem with identifying gifted kids from URM groups. The idea isn't that MCPS would lower the bar. The idea is that there are kids who would clear the bar but are not currently being identified.

The alternative is that we just accept that our "gifted" program is really a program for high achieving but not necessarily gifted kids.

At the middle school and high school level it is a program for gifted kids who are high achieving. At Eastern for example, you have to be able to hit the ground running and be able to write long essays, do research, work collaboratively and so on. This is also the case in a program like RMIB or Blair SMAC - you have to be gifted and have strong study skills in order to be able to for example complete the AP Physics curriculum in one semester in 9th grade. The teachers are not able to work one on one with students with a class size of 25 or 26 kids and so the application process does consider writing samples, report cards, teacher recommendations and so on. So, if you have two children who are equally "gifted" the child who has a record of academic achievement and has demonstrated good time management etc. will have an edge. This does give an advantage to children who come from homes where education is valued and whose parents spend a lot of time working with them from a young age and who work collaboratively with their child's teachers. So yes, children with these advantages are more likely to get into these programs. I don't think there is a racial bias.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For those worried about the magnets being watered down, aren't there many qualified kids who don't quite make the cut? Would it be so bad if, for example, the HGCs served the top 7% of kids in the county rather than the top 3%?

Honestly, I think the best solution here is to keep the HGCs as they are, but to make sure that ALL schools have acceleration available for the kids in that 90 - 97% range. That would sweep up a lot of URMs as well as middle class white kids who are not "highly gifted" but who can handle more acceleration than is currently provided.

There are. But even these kids are mostly white/Asian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Throughout the country, this is the primary purpose of magnet programs. They are not meant to serve the children with resources. They are meant to pull bright, hard-working kids out of problematic schools. Look at the racial breakdown of magnets in other districts the size of MOCO. They are generally over 70% minority.

I haven't checked the truth behind the post. But didn't someone post last week that half of Blair magnet kids end up at UMD? Why pay all this money for kids that would have ended up at UMD anyway had they stayed at their home schools? I can't believe the money isn't better spent. As a county, what are we actually getting out of these magnet programs? Is there research that magnt students have gone on to better and brighter things than the AP/IB kids in the home schools?

Magnets should be used to help students who are motivated and intelligent - but not so lucky in the birth lottery. Plus, keeping the bulk of magnet kids in their home schools will make all of the schools stronger.

By the same logic, why waste money on early interventions for poorly performing students when it will not close the achievement gap and/or when they will get admission in magnet programs and colleges based upon affirmative action anyways.

Or why have science classes? Most students won't go on to be scientists. Or art (most students won't go on to be artists), music (most students won't go on to be musicians), or sports teams (most students won't go on to be athletes)?

This actually argues for the point of the PP. Early intervention has proven results, as do magnet schools that are designed to aid those with less resources. Does anyone have numbers that show that kids that go to Blair actually do betterin college and undergand than non-magnet kids? If these kids are so very bright (as the 40 NMS pp keeps claiming), wouldn't these kids excel anywhere (isn't that a common refrain on DCUM- smart kids do great everywhere!).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the fact that 40% of the program are National Merit Scholars and the average SAT score of the program is 2250 means nothing if kids choose to go to UMD because it has the program they want or is most financially manageable to them.

The middle class/upper middle-class kids would still likely have SAT scores of 2250 and be NMS at their home schools. The lower-income students would still be at the magnet. So, I'm not saying it means nothing, I'm saying it's a wash.

Do you really think that UMD is these kids dream school? (I'm not saying anything bad about the school). If Blair really created amazing students we would see more students going to top schools (both because they would get in and because of merit scholarships).

You must have young kids - certainly not college ready yet.

About 1/2 MCPS high schools have not even 1 NMSF. Not even 1. Out of 130-160 NMSF in MCPS produce every year, about 1/2 comes from two programs - Blair Magnet and RM/IB (about equal number from each). This year each produced slightly over 40 kids. Think about that for a moment - out of 100 kids, 40-some are NMSF. These kids are performing at a very high level. If they mix-in kids just based on color of their skin, it just means either those kids will fail (if they maintain current standard) or water-downing the program (if you want to retain all kids at any cost).

As for UMD comment, a lot of kids in this area with parents making 200k and up, they are not qualified to get FA at top tier schools. So, many take UMD path with merit aid and save money for post-college education - med school, law school, phd...etc. including all of my kids.

I would argue that the reason for this is the magnet program structure itself is responsible for the higher numbers of NMSF and not necessarily the kids themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For those worried about the magnets being watered down, aren't there many qualified kids who don't quite make the cut? Would it be so bad if, for example, the HGCs served the top 7% of kids in the county rather than the top 3%?

Honestly, I think the best solution here is to keep the HGCs as they are, but to make sure that ALL schools have acceleration available for the kids in that 90 - 97% range. That would sweep up a lot of URMs as well as middle class white kids who are not "highly gifted" but who can handle more acceleration than is currently provided.

I'd rather see each school have a pull-out program (within the school) that serves the top 15%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ it will be more like college app process. They will "broaden" the definition of "gifted" or "magnet" and use "holistic" admission process to ensure racial diversity.

EXACTLY. Affirmative action for public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the fact that 40% of the program are National Merit Scholars and the average SAT score of the program is 2250 means nothing if kids choose to go to UMD because it has the program they want or is most financially manageable to them.

The middle class/upper middle-class kids would still likely have SAT scores of 2250 and be NMS at their home schools. The lower-income students would still be at the magnet. So, I'm not saying it means nothing, I'm saying it's a wash.

Do you really think that UMD is these kids dream school? (I'm not saying anything bad about the school). If Blair really created amazing students we would see more students going to top schools (both because they would get in and because of merit scholarships).

You must have young kids - certainly not college ready yet.

About 1/2 MCPS high schools have not even 1 NMSF. Not even 1. Out of 130-160 NMSF in MCPS produce every year, about 1/2 comes from two programs - Blair Magnet and RM/IB (about equal number from each). This year each produced slightly over 40 kids. Think about that for a moment - out of 100 kids, 40-some are NMSF. These kids are performing at a very high level. If they mix-in kids just based on color of their skin, it just means either those kids will fail (if they maintain current standard) or water-downing the program (if you want to retain all kids at any cost).

As for UMD comment, a lot of kids in this area with parents making 200k and up, they are not qualified to get FA at top tier schools. So, many take UMD path with merit aid and save money for post-college education - med school, law school, phd...etc. including all of my kids.

I would argue that the reason for this is the magnet program structure itself is responsible for the higher numbers of NMSF and not necessarily the kids themselves.

How so? Magnets don't teach or structure their programs for particular tests. Tell me what you mean.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those worried about the magnets being watered down, aren't there many qualified kids who don't quite make the cut? Would it be so bad if, for example, the HGCs served the top 7% of kids in the county rather than the top 3%?

Honestly, I think the best solution here is to keep the HGCs as they are, but to make sure that ALL schools have acceleration available for the kids in that 90 - 97% range. That would sweep up a lot of URMs as well as middle class white kids who are not "highly gifted" but who can handle more acceleration than is currently provided.

I'd rather see each school have a pull-out program (within the school) that serves the top 15%.

I would too. Each school should have a chance to have some shining stars. End the applying, the busses and crossing kids between towns and uprooting them from their home school. This also never allows children with financial needs to go which sucks. This should be done in elementary school and then each middle schools has an honors track and then if chosen, kids can apply into IB and Magnets in high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about - Year round school for poor URM students starting from pre-K? These students must get into gifted programs to get into 10 month of regular school schedule.

This will bridge the achievement gap in my opinion.

You want to pass a law with different school attendance requirements depending on the student's race/ethnicity and the student's family's income? Really?

And would this requirement apply to the kids of my neighbors, who are African-Americans with a law degree and an MBA, respectively? Please explain.

Well, we are talking about changing the admissions criteria for magnets based on race/ethnicity and family income, are we not? So, why not change the attendance requirement for schools as well?

I don't think we ARE talking about changing the admissions criteria. I think we're talking about ensuring that we're capturing all of the "highly gifted" kids irrespective of race/ethnicity or family income. Right now the HGC and other magnets programs are wildly disproportionate to the population of the district. If we assume true giftedness (rather than just good coaching) occurs at a similar rate in each group, then we clearly have a problem with identifying gifted kids from URM groups. The idea isn't that MCPS would lower the bar. The idea is that there are kids who would clear the bar but are not currently being identified.

The alternative is that we just accept that our "gifted" program is really a program for high achieving but not necessarily gifted kids.

New person, are you saying that the kids are not identified because they don't apply? or are you saying not lower (or raise) the bar but have a different bar?

I'm not sure. This is a problem that basically every school district in the country is dealing with, and a district like MCPS with significant racial and economic diversity is just dealing with it in a higher profile manner.

There have been multiple dissertations written on how to identify gifted kids from URM groups, so I'm not going to pretend to know more than the experts. All I'm saying is that we have to identify the correct problem. There are gifted kids in every racial/ethnic/economic group. We know that. We also know that the kids identified as "gifted" in MCPS are not at all representative of the student population. So...how do we make sure that we're not excluding gifted and high achieving kids, who would be successful in the magnet programs, just because they are poor or Black or Latino, or whatever?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those worried about the magnets being watered down, aren't there many qualified kids who don't quite make the cut? Would it be so bad if, for example, the HGCs served the top 7% of kids in the county rather than the top 3%?

Honestly, I think the best solution here is to keep the HGCs as they are, but to make sure that ALL schools have acceleration available for the kids in that 90 - 97% range. That would sweep up a lot of URMs as well as middle class white kids who are not "highly gifted" but who can handle more acceleration than is currently provided.

There are. But even these kids are mostly white/Asian.

+ 1. The reality is that that the top 10% students will be Asians and Whites in MCPS. And the difference in scores in standardized tests are in 100s, So, if you expand the program - (which you should) - you will still get predominantly Asians and Whites, if you go by test scores and academic performance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those worried about the magnets being watered down, aren't there many qualified kids who don't quite make the cut? Would it be so bad if, for example, the HGCs served the top 7% of kids in the county rather than the top 3%?

Honestly, I think the best solution here is to keep the HGCs as they are, but to make sure that ALL schools have acceleration available for the kids in that 90 - 97% range. That would sweep up a lot of URMs as well as middle class white kids who are not "highly gifted" but who can handle more acceleration than is currently provided.

There are. But even these kids are mostly white/Asian.

+ 1. The reality is that that the top 10% students will be Asians and Whites in MCPS. And the difference in scores in standardized tests are in 100s, So, if you expand the program - (which you should) - you will still get predominantly Asians and Whites, if you go by test scores and academic performance.

I think you need to go much deeper than 10%.

[Anonymous]

Do the parents who do not know about magnet programs know about the George B Thomas Learning Academy? www.saturdayschool.org/

Are the underperforming students making use of this resource? Who is the person incharge of this academy? what is their race? What are they doing to inform everyone about this resource?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Throughout the country, this is the primary purpose of magnet programs. They are not meant to serve the children with resources. They are meant to pull bright, hard-working kids out of problematic schools. Look at the racial breakdown of magnets in other districts the size of MOCO. They are generally over 70% minority.

I haven't checked the truth behind the post. But didn't someone post last week that half of Blair magnet kids end up at UMD? Why pay all this money for kids that would have ended up at UMD anyway had they stayed at their home schools? I can't believe the money isn't better spent. As a county, what are we actually getting out of these magnet programs? Is there research that magnt students have gone on to better and brighter things than the AP/IB kids in the home schools?

Magnets should be used to help students who are motivated and intelligent - but not so lucky in the birth lottery. Plus, keeping the bulk of magnet kids in their home schools will make all of the schools stronger.

By the same logic, why waste money on early interventions for poorly performing students when it will not close the achievement gap and/or when they will get admission in magnet programs and colleges based upon affirmative action anyways.

Or why have science classes? Most students won't go on to be scientists. Or art (most students won't go on to be artists), music (most students won't go on to be musicians), or sports teams (most students won't go on to be athletes)?

This actually argues for the point of the PP. Early intervention has proven results, as do magnet schools that are designed to aid those with less resources. Does anyone have numbers that show that kids that go to Blair actually do betterin college and undergand than non-magnet kids? If these kids are so very bright (as the 40 NMS pp keeps claiming), wouldn't these kids excel anywhere (isn't that a common refrain on DCUM- smart kids do great everywhere!).

By that logic, we should just put them in a closet with a light bulb and a book, and let them go at it.

This thread makes me glad that my kids are in high school (magnets FWIW) and I don't have to contend with all of this for much longer.