Deal or Basis for DCs? Advice Needed.

[Anonymous]

I am sick to death of all this gifted talk. It has to be one or two people writing about this gifted stuff all over the threads in this forum.

My question? What is the difference among a gifted student, an advanced learner, and kids who are really good students. My sense is that in DC we have some super smart kids and the basic dcps curriculum/teacher does not keep up with them and they are not the main concern of the administation or teachers given the profound catch up that an even larger number of kids in DC need to make.

I don't think we need to advocate for gifted or tag programs. Such a tiny percentage of kids are truly gifted that it wouldn't really solve the larger problem of what to do with really smart ( but not necessarily gifted ) masses of students.

I would like to see DC develop better ways of meeting the academic needs of these super smart kids without having to start labeling kids "gifted" or not. Maybe this happens through flexible grouping, pull out, test- in middle schools or magnet schools. It already happens with AP classes and the IB Diploma program in high schools. How to do that starting in middle/upper elementary?

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with 12:42, this really is not about gifted but advanced learners. I think it could be done at the elementary level by lettting go of things like whole class novels and instead by focusing on having a range of assignments. My sense of teachers in DC is that they don't know how to push a kid up to the next level often because they have no experience with expectations in upper grades. I wish there were more collaboration so these kids did have more challenges. That said maybe we are just too focused on smart and not on hard work, this piece on NPR this morning was something I had heard before but still thought provoking.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/11/12/164793058/struggle-for-smarts-how-eastern-and-western-cultures-tackle-learning

[Anonymous]

Give PPs a break, 12:42, gifted is shorthand for "advanced" or "very advanced" in public school parlance. Truly gifted kids rarely stick around public schools of course. They're off to Juliard, the Olympic games or maybe a grand masters chess championship.

This thread has come full circle in a sense, since it started with a Chinese immigrant dad valuing diversity in a school population less than consistent challenge for a talented child, as described in the link above via the anecdote about a Japanese math teaching method encouraging kids to stretch themselves intellectually at every turn.

I don't see real challenge in MS or HS in the District, along with decent facilities (a stage, auditorium, playing fields) without test-in admissions, and I don't see test-in MS admissions, or serious test-in HS admissions, for a decade or more, given the make-up of a not-so-enlightened DC City Council.

The best parents of truly advanced learners and Asian style hard workers can probably do is find ways to make DCPS and DC Charters work for elementary school, then beat it for MS and HS, with nobody much sad to see them go.

For my part, I'm sick to death of the "Basis and Deal, good-enough-for-me" crowd advising parents who understand that selective admissions promotes excellence to hit the road for the burbs!

[Anonymous]

Hilarious. Seems we have come down to at the least, 4 categories parents participating in this thread.

1--those who think Hardy and Stuart Hobson are good enough for.their kids.

2- those same parents who think Jefferson and Eliot Hine are good enough for everyone else's kids

3- parents for whom Deal, Latin and Basis are good enough for their kids

4- parents who think only selective admissions ( and therefore suburbs ) are good enough.

What is your number?

[Anonymous]

Actually, I have to disagree with the previous posters, and yes advocacy for G&T/TAG in DC *is* needed. Even if it's considered to be single-digit percentage, it would still easily end up being thousands of students across the city if all were assembled in one place. And no, they don't just automatically end up at Julliard, et cetera - those opportunities are rarer and harder to connect with than one might expect - and particularly so for students in locales where there is no meaningful effort to identify and help G&T students.

[Anonymous]

Agree with 20:58

In addition, if we want to change the balance of struggling versus advanced (so that everyone benefits) we need to develop gifted programs, advanced programs, etc. It doesn't mean pushing out struggling students, it means bringing in and keeping stronger students.

At this point, I am not sure that any of my kids would actually qualify for a gifted or advanced program, but I think it would benefit my kids to be surrounded by the brightest.

That may mean having a mix of selective schools, schools within schools, tracking, etc If DCPS has about half it students considered struggling, and DCPS was able to attract another 22k students who are mostly at or above grade level, , making the ratio 2:1 in favor of proficient and advanced students. Even struggling students benefit.

Thus, I am a supporter of accommodating G&T/TAG even if my kids don't participate fully in them, the ancillary benefits overcome whatever downside there might be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hilarious. Seems we have come down to at the least, 4 categories parents participating in this thread.

1--those who think Hardy and Stuart Hobson are good enough for.their kids.

2- those same parents who think Jefferson and Eliot Hine are good enough for everyone else's kids

3- parents for whom Deal, Latin and Basis are good enough for their kids

4- parents who think only selective admissions ( and therefore suburbs ) are good enough.

What is your number?

5 - None of the above. I don't see the political winds in DC (and therefore DCPS) changing swiftly enough for selective admissions to affect my children. That's not to say that I wouldn't support it whenever it's a real option 10 or 20 years from now, I will. However, it's just not soon enough for my family's needs, so we need a different option.

I am very much looking forward to the DCI school. The rigors of the IB Diploma Programme allow for advanced/gifted/ambitious students to take an internationally recognized challenging course load. Given that charters aren't allowed to select their students (although it's nice that all the bilingual students will get preference, and I hope Sela decides to join that mix), then tracking with highly-regarded and internationally benchmarked standards (primarily used at private schools) is the next best thing.

http://www.ibo.org/diploma/curriculum/

[Anonymous]

I am very much looking forward to the DCI school. The rigors of the IB Diploma Programme allow for advanced/gifted/ambitious students to take an internationally recognized challenging course load. Given that charters aren't allowed to select their students (although it's nice that all the bilingual students will get preference, and I hope Sela decides to join that mix), then tracking with highly-regarded and internationally benchmarked standards (primarily used at private schools) is the next best thing.


http://www.ibo.org/diploma/curriculum/

OP again. I agree wholeheartedly with those who see the need for bona fide GT programs in DC, and don't agree that Stuart Hobson and Eliot-Hine are OK for anybody's kids as is. But I'm skeptical about DCI working well for advanced learners, mainly because YY is leading the charge, its boosters and administrators tend to be seriously smug and fairly impractical. We passed on YY, though we speak Chinee at home, mainly because the school is only around 2% bilingual and nobody there seemed to mind. A couple long DCUM threads on the subject have validated our concerns.

With most DCI kids probably going to lottery in, and long-standing resistance to tracking in DC public schools, how much could the IB curriculum do for the place? I earned the full diploma in HS coming out of a GT program - full IB is GT by another name. Tracking only for math, the new norm, isn't going to produce a cohort of IB diploma-ready kids. It's easy to do IB subject tests (they're easier than AP tests) but earning the full diploma, most of what makes the program worthwhile for HS, probably needs ES and MS GT as a building block.

[Anonymous]

Did you all know that Eastern High School is going to have the IB Diploma Program (11th and 12th grades). It obviously won't be for everyone and will be a small cohort within the school. Two of the middle schools that feed into Eastern, Eliot Hine and Jefferson, are currently working on IB Middle Years Program certfication. In Middle Years ( 6 to 10th grade ), the entire school participates and is organzied around the IB philosophy. By 11th grade it is only the most advanced and motivated students who can handle the program.

I don't know if the plan is to just ignore the 9th and 10th grades of the middle years program, or to carry it through.

Just wondering if people would consider Eastern with its IB Diploma program for high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Give PPs a break, 12:42, gifted is shorthand for "advanced" or "very advanced" in public school parlance. Truly gifted kids rarely stick around public schools of course. They're off to Juliard, the Olympic games or maybe a grand masters chess championship.

This thread has come full circle in a sense, since it started with a Chinese immigrant dad valuing diversity in a school population less than consistent challenge for a talented child, as described in the link above via the anecdote about a Japanese math teaching method encouraging kids to stretch themselves intellectually at every turn.

I don't see real challenge in MS or HS in the District, along with decent facilities (a stage, auditorium, playing fields) without test-in admissions, and I don't see test-in MS admissions, or serious test-in HS admissions, for a decade or more, given the make-up of a not-so-enlightened DC City Council.

The best parents of truly advanced learners and Asian style hard workers can probably do is find ways to make DCPS and DC Charters work for elementary school, then beat it for MS and HS, with nobody much sad to see them go.
Sts
For my part, I'm sick to death of the "Basis and Deal, good-enough-for-me" crowd advising parents who understand that selective admissions promotes excellence to hit the road for the burbs!

Why not stop saying "gifted" then? Gifted means a specific thing that most children are not. Just say academically talented or something. Since you really don't seem to be talking about non academically gifted kids like athletes and musicians and artists

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did you all know that Eastern High School is going to have the IB Diploma Program (11th and 12th grades). It obviously won't be for everyone and will be a small cohort within the school. Two of the middle schools that feed into Eastern, Eliot Hine and Jefferson, are currently working on IB Middle Years Program certfication. In Middle Years ( 6 to 10th grade ), the entire school participates and is organzied around the IB philosophy. By 11th grade it is only the most advanced and motivated students who can handle the program.

I don't know if the plan is to just ignore the 9th and 10th grades of the middle years program, or to carry it through.

Just wondering if people would consider Eastern with its IB Diploma program for high school.

I would consider Eastern if it wasn't always a case of "going to have" ad infinitum. The amount of thngs Eastern is "going to have" is a mile long and it's still a mostly-empty building with not that impressive test scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The lack of tracking at Deal, combined with social promotion, concerns me greatly, as do relatively thin sounding extra-curriculars and cramped facilities at a cash-strapped charter.

New poster. We're in exactly the same boat, PP, taking a hard look at Deal (in-bounds), BASIS and MoCo schools for AY 2013-2014 or 2014-2015.

We share your concern about the lack of tracking, other than for math, not just at Deal but at Basis! Our kid has done Johns Hopkins CTY camps for humanities after 2nd and 3rd grades, and will go after 4th, yet both schools would toss her into science, English and social studies classes with kids who can't test proficient in reading on the DC-CAS, let alone advanced. Galling. We've learned that MoCo middle schools almost always track for math and English, and usually do for other academic subjects. We're leaning toward MoCo and it sounds like you will be as well. Best of luck.

Wow. I can't believe there are people who are so singularly focused as you. I really hope your kids don't disappoint someday. You sound out of touch and inflexible, bordering on hostile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Thank you, pps, for filling me in. I certainly didn't mean to spark a round of anything-you-can-do-I-can-do-better with Basis and Deal parents as the chorus. I'm impressed by the collective boosting though - parental loyalty to both schools sounds like testament to a pioneering spirit in NW.

My dearest wish right now is for a Fairfax or MoCo caliber public MS to suddenly emerge on the Hill. Failing that, the dough for a private. Looking at the pack of middle-class elementary school kids coming up, I feel like "everyman" parent here, with scores soon to confront the same dilemna. We essentially have six months to stay put and go with Basis, or 18 months to move and go with Deal/Wilson, or with MoCo. We could, of course, go with Stuart Hobson, or maybe Two Rivers, but they don't seem worth it. Hardly the end of the world whatever course we choose.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to learn that Deal only tracks for math, and will indefinitely from the sounds of it. I say this because the "differentiated learning within the classroom approach" has worked less well for us with each passing year of elementary school as the gap between the kids who struggle (yes, mostly low-SES and AA, but certainly not all) and the advanced kids (yes, mostly white or Asian and high-SES, but certainly not all) grows. My older child read all the Harry Potter books in the 3rd grade, where she sat alongide a few kids who struggled to read chapter books. Since tracking for subjects other than math is almost certainly what it's going to take this particular child to be consistently challenged, it doen't sound like Deal would be good fit. And I can't feel enthusiastic about the sounds of the non-academic facilities at Basis. I'd really like a school with at least a gym and a stage/auditorium.

Signing off her by saying thanks again, we'll weigh it all in the balance between now and decision-making time.

Dude...my kid read all of the Harry Potter series in the fall of 2nd grade, with about half of the class (I know this because the kids discussed it ad nauseum all year and tried to beat each other on the accelerated reading program). He attends Lafayette, and something like 96% of last year's 5th grade class moved on to Deal, so that's who your kids would be in class with. Geez.

[Anonymous]

I'm disappointed, but not surprised, to learn that Deal only tracks for math, and will indefinitely from the sounds of it. I say this because the "differentiated learning within the classroom approach" has worked less well for us with each passing year of elementary school as the gap between the kids who struggle (yes, mostly low-SES and AA, but certainly not all) and the advanced kids (yes, mostly white or Asian and high-SES, but certainly not all) grows. My older child read all the Harry Potter books in the 3rd grade, where she sat alongide a few kids who struggled to read chapter books. Since tracking for subjects other than math is almost certainly what it's going to take this particular child to be consistently challenged, it doen't sound like Deal would be good fit. And I can't feel enthusiastic about the sounds of the non-academic facilities at Basis. I'd really like a school with at least a gym and a stage/auditorium.



You know I have one those children and she struggles to read because she has Dyslexia, however she is just as smart as your child, just needs to consume the text in an auditory function. One should not be so sure that your kid that can read Harry Potter is brilliant, she just may be good at decoding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Did you all know that Eastern High School is going to have the IB Diploma Program (11th and 12th grades). It obviously won't be for everyone and will be a small cohort within the school. Two of the middle schools that feed into Eastern, Eliot Hine and Jefferson, are currently working on IB Middle Years Program certfication. In Middle Years ( 6 to 10th grade ), the entire school participates and is organzied around the IB philosophy. By 11th grade it is only the most advanced and motivated students who can handle the program.

I don't know if the plan is to just ignore the 9th and 10th grades of the middle years program, or to carry it through.

Just wondering if people would consider Eastern with its IB Diploma program for high school.

It sounds nice.

The problem is that I don't believe more than 25% (at best) of the student body will enter the school at proficient levels, so my confidence in the ability to deliver on a true IB program isn't there.

Plus, it's easy to promise anything. Eastern hasn't been awarded any level of status from the IB organization, so it's really all talk at this point.