Anonymous wrote:Adoption is whole different narrative today than from years ago. There is no such thing as a closed adoption. All parties will be known, including bio parents, grandparents, siblings, etc. Adoption was always adoptive parent centered ( saviors, rescuers) and never child centered (each child comes with their own identity, no one is being "saved"- women make adoption choices for various reasons, not because of shame or morals), but now it's child centered.
Yes, they need to be told. No, they do become the adoptive family's culture and ethnicity because they look like it or pass, yes they should know everything when age appropriate, and adoptive parents should encourage ancestry and bio family connection if child wants to. The child's identity, birthdate, everything is their own.
DNA has replaced all the cloaked secrets. There's no wondering or guessing anymore. No secrets.
I don’t know where you get any of this information from. Yes, there are still MANY closed domestic infant adoptions. And even when an open adoption is promised to a mother considering relinquishment, there is literally NO legal recourse to that mother if the adopters take her child and then immediately cut off contact, or cut off contact at a later date for whatever reason they want. And some studies show more than half of options that were promised to be open are actually closed by the adopters.
Yes, it is true that commercial DNA can reveal secrets and rcinnvtvfikyes separated by adoption loss, but that doesn’t in any way ameliorate the loss or the betrayal to both parent and child if an open adoption is later closed by the adopters.
You are also VERY wrong that relinquishing mothers no longer make these choices out of shame. Christian maternity homes are more popular than ever in the U.S. and they are almost entirely run by evangelical sects that do indeed very purposefully inflict great shame upon the pregnant girl or woman, with the entire premise of adoption being that the act of such “selfless” love is redeeming, and that by giving away their baby to more worthy parents, they are redeeming their their terrible sins of sex outside of marriage.
The podcast Liberty Lost goes into this kind of pervasive shame based messaging in great detail. The first episode opens with a scene where a relinquishing teen mom is forced into participating in this creepy ceremony where she and the father of the baby have to walk him down the aisle in a public ceremony and place him in the adopters’ arms up at the altar, to great praise from the gathering of their families and others. The entire ritual is framed as redemptive and cleansing. But everything about it is shame based
I am talking about the current general societal paradigm of adoption now vs. the Baby Scoop Era.
Yes, there are legally closed adoptions, but that is no longer something that has to be done. Closed adoptions now are much rarer because adoption is no longer just in the adoptive parents control. Or a court.
The example you gave above is extremely esoteric and culture bound, it's certainly not the norm for today compared to the 50s and 60s. There are religious sects who do creepy things, and what you describe is definitely not common at all, but keeping girls in maternity homes, out of school is actually illegal unless a family can prove she's homeschooled and there is oversight. Young mothers also have rights if they choose to buck this antiquated system, whereas years ago they had no rights. What you are talking about only exists in extreme rarity. Depending on the state, too, as marriage at 16 is still legal in some states, but that doesn't mean it's the norm.
Society has entirely changed sinced earlier generations. No mandated maternity homes, no need to marry, no need to give the child up- and that is societal, not religious. The mother has more rights when she does give the child up, too.
With regard to DNA, there is literally no more issue with biological identity at all. There is actually zero way to keep any part of the members involvement a secret. Yes, I'm sure there are open adoptions that didn't comply, but the main thing is that these children will always know who their biological family is, at some time or another.
The adoption industry is corrupt and while abuses like you mention are not as common as they used to be, there are still abuses.
Birth mothers are a necessary evil to adoption agencies. They are offered the carrot and the stick.
Just look up savings our sisters and you will see
I don't need to see. I am an adoptee and am very involved in many adoptee organizations. The issue now are religious organizations that prey on women. The big difference is that women can always choose, there's no social stigma anymore. If people are coerced into something that's an issue in itself, but the adoption process and paradigm has changed dramatically over 60 years. There's no secrets anymore.
Well, yes! WOMEN can always choose but when the "woman" is an 18 year old without any financial resources from a low-income family and they are psychologically coerced by adoptive organizations and shady adoption lawyers to give up their children with promises of a "wonderful life with a wonderful family" then, yes then that is a coercive issue. Dangle money along with that (despite it being illegal - it is done) and you have a child-for-sale situation.
To make it worse, couch it under the "private" adoption and there is virtually no oversight.
Yep, but again you are referring to religious organizations not societal. The problem for all women young, or not, is the resource angle. This is a whole different story, but it still vastly differs from even 40 years ago where even having and keeping the baby was impossible. There's ways to seek assistance, the woman just needs to know what and how. The baby daddy is now held to account, regardless of age -child support,everything. If he cannot, he will go through the law.
Regarding private adoptions, which still are happening, there are definitive laws around those. It's not gray market or black market as a general rule, although I'm sure it happens, especially with overseas adoption. My birth certificate is not even real, and I will never know my actual birthday. I was literally sold to the highest bidder. Laws have tightened up.
But, exploitation happens in all arenas regarding family building- fertility clinics, sperm and egg donation, surrogacy for sure, and adoption. The difference is woman can still choose, they can abort ( depending where they live now) they can be unwed, they can still work, and if they do choose adoption, there's no more anonymity.
You obviously have a pro-adoption narrative you are pushing because nowhere in that post is there a mention of religious organizations.
I am referring to the fact that targeting low-income teens and young women to give up their children to those with more income and money to pay to acquire those children, should be a crime that is prosecuted along the same lines as human/sex trafficking. Period.
Forty years ago it was not impossible for women to keep their babies so I don't know where you are getting that nonsense from. I have several friends who chose to keep their babies and had social and family support. It was tough but there wasn't much stigma and family/friends all rallied to help out. Those kids are now in their 40s and seem to have been fine raised by single mothers and are living life well.
I also know one girl from school who went to a "maternity home" and gave her child up for adoption. She had a much more difficult time and to this day has an emptiness in her life and IMO has never psychologically recovered from that.
Yes, there is "no more anonymity" in adoption which is even worse. Now those girls/women are being told they can have open adoptions but are RARELY told that the adoptive family can rescind that at any time, for no reason. So a mother spends a year or two maybe getting to know her child via the open process and then on a whim and perhaps with no reason, the adoptive family decides she can't see the child any more.
I know of a case of that, too. The rather arrogant adoptive couple didn't like a couple of minor comments made by the bio mom so they decided it was best to cut her out. They were looking for an excuse. I hope they can explain that to their kid when they get old enough to ask.
It is problematic to speak in absolutes concerning the logistics of this issue because it is global, and situations that are no longer the norm in one locale may still be conventional in others.
However, it is my conviction as an international adoptee, a feminist and a sibling to kids who were profoundly damaged pre and/or post-birth by their birth families in such a way that they have had no ability to cultivate truly meaningful relationships, familial or otherwise, and who not only have added nothing of value to family life but in fact have detracted from it, that bringing children into the world for whom one is unable and/or unwilling to provide a life that, barring unforeseen catastrophe, imparts the resources to become a well-educated, independently functioning and emotionally, psychologically and physically healthy adult capable of attaining reasonable financial security and also happiness via meaningful relationships (familial, romantic and/or platonic) and the use of his/her/their talents to benefit him/herself/themselves and society, is not simply profoundly selfish but ethically and morally irresponsible, particularly on the part of birth parents in societies where education is compulsory through at least age 16, and abortion is a viable option. There is no adoption "industry" without people having babies for whom the rest of society has to step up and care in the first place, and while every one of us deepens our collective carbon footprint, people given consistent stability in the form of healthy familial relationships and continuous access to the basics (healthy food, safe housing and neighborhood, excellent health care and schools and opportunities to discover interests and talents via rich extracurricular activities and experiences such as visits to museums, zoos, reasonable vacations, etc.) usually make up for that debt through beneficial contributions to society as adults. It's everyone's collective responsibility not to produce children who won't be capable of becoming healthy, independently functioning adults. So I am not particularly concerned about the "rights" of birth parents, especially given a context where courts often have given precedence to them at the expense of their children's well-being. (And for the record, I am all for instituting age-appropriate education on what it means to be in and cultivate healthy familial, platonic and romantic relationships, what it means to be a good parent; financial literacy, and the relationship between how we live and its effect on the environment that all should be a regular part of school curricula; free, unlimited birth control; the development of birth control for men; and accessible abortion at any point in the pregnancy. Re: this last: do I like the idea of late abortions? No, but I like the idea of imposing decades of unnecessary suffering via the birth of an infant born with, say, FAS even less).
What are you talking about?
It doesn't know because it is AI. It's only going by the force-fed info submitted to it by the adoption industry to promote its bottom-line profitability.
Anonymous wrote:And this is why open adoption can be very messy. At the end of the day though, even though Mary's bio-grandparents are willing to pony up some $ for college, they were not willing to step up and raise her. That is a hurt which Mary will someday feel and which her siblings via adoption will not be burdened with. The adoptive parents should be okay with Mary getting this bit of monetary acknowledgement from her bio family.
That’s a ridiculous presumption. It was not the grandparents’ choice (necessarily).
Anonymous wrote:Adoption is whole different narrative today than from years ago. There is no such thing as a closed adoption. All parties will be known, including bio parents, grandparents, siblings, etc. Adoption was always adoptive parent centered ( saviors, rescuers) and never child centered (each child comes with their own identity, no one is being "saved"- women make adoption choices for various reasons, not because of shame or morals), but now it's child centered.
Yes, they need to be told. No, they do become the adoptive family's culture and ethnicity because they look like it or pass, yes they should know everything when age appropriate, and adoptive parents should encourage ancestry and bio family connection if child wants to. The child's identity, birthdate, everything is their own.
DNA has replaced all the cloaked secrets. There's no wondering or guessing anymore. No secrets.
I don’t know where you get any of this information from. Yes, there are still MANY closed domestic infant adoptions. And even when an open adoption is promised to a mother considering relinquishment, there is literally NO legal recourse to that mother if the adopters take her child and then immediately cut off contact, or cut off contact at a later date for whatever reason they want. And some studies show more than half of options that were promised to be open are actually closed by the adopters.
Yes, it is true that commercial DNA can reveal secrets and rcinnvtvfikyes separated by adoption loss, but that doesn’t in any way ameliorate the loss or the betrayal to both parent and child if an open adoption is later closed by the adopters.
You are also VERY wrong that relinquishing mothers no longer make these choices out of shame. Christian maternity homes are more popular than ever in the U.S. and they are almost entirely run by evangelical sects that do indeed very purposefully inflict great shame upon the pregnant girl or woman, with the entire premise of adoption being that the act of such “selfless” love is redeeming, and that by giving away their baby to more worthy parents, they are redeeming their their terrible sins of sex outside of marriage.
The podcast Liberty Lost goes into this kind of pervasive shame based messaging in great detail. The first episode opens with a scene where a relinquishing teen mom is forced into participating in this creepy ceremony where she and the father of the baby have to walk him down the aisle in a public ceremony and place him in the adopters’ arms up at the altar, to great praise from the gathering of their families and others. The entire ritual is framed as redemptive and cleansing. But everything about it is shame based
I am talking about the current general societal paradigm of adoption now vs. the Baby Scoop Era.
Yes, there are legally closed adoptions, but that is no longer something that has to be done. Closed adoptions now are much rarer because adoption is no longer just in the adoptive parents control. Or a court.
The example you gave above is extremely esoteric and culture bound, it's certainly not the norm for today compared to the 50s and 60s. There are religious sects who do creepy things, and what you describe is definitely not common at all, but keeping girls in maternity homes, out of school is actually illegal unless a family can prove she's homeschooled and there is oversight. Young mothers also have rights if they choose to buck this antiquated system, whereas years ago they had no rights. What you are talking about only exists in extreme rarity. Depending on the state, too, as marriage at 16 is still legal in some states, but that doesn't mean it's the norm.
Society has entirely changed sinced earlier generations. No mandated maternity homes, no need to marry, no need to give the child up- and that is societal, not religious. The mother has more rights when she does give the child up, too.
With regard to DNA, there is literally no more issue with biological identity at all. There is actually zero way to keep any part of the members involvement a secret. Yes, I'm sure there are open adoptions that didn't comply, but the main thing is that these children will always know who their biological family is, at some time or another.
The adoption industry is corrupt and while abuses like you mention are not as common as they used to be, there are still abuses.
Birth mothers are a necessary evil to adoption agencies. They are offered the carrot and the stick.
Just look up savings our sisters and you will see
I don't need to see. I am an adoptee and am very involved in many adoptee organizations. The issue now are religious organizations that prey on women. The big difference is that women can always choose, there's no social stigma anymore. If people are coerced into something that's an issue in itself, but the adoption process and paradigm has changed dramatically over 60 years. There's no secrets anymore.
Well, yes! WOMEN can always choose but when the "woman" is an 18 year old without any financial resources from a low-income family and they are psychologically coerced by adoptive organizations and shady adoption lawyers to give up their children with promises of a "wonderful life with a wonderful family" then, yes then that is a coercive issue. Dangle money along with that (despite it being illegal - it is done) and you have a child-for-sale situation.
To make it worse, couch it under the "private" adoption and there is virtually no oversight.
Yep, but again you are referring to religious organizations not societal. The problem for all women young, or not, is the resource angle. This is a whole different story, but it still vastly differs from even 40 years ago where even having and keeping the baby was impossible. There's ways to seek assistance, the woman just needs to know what and how. The baby daddy is now held to account, regardless of age -child support,everything. If he cannot, he will go through the law.
Regarding private adoptions, which still are happening, there are definitive laws around those. It's not gray market or black market as a general rule, although I'm sure it happens, especially with overseas adoption. My birth certificate is not even real, and I will never know my actual birthday. I was literally sold to the highest bidder. Laws have tightened up.
But, exploitation happens in all arenas regarding family building- fertility clinics, sperm and egg donation, surrogacy for sure, and adoption. The difference is woman can still choose, they can abort ( depending where they live now) they can be unwed, they can still work, and if they do choose adoption, there's no more anonymity.
You obviously have a pro-adoption narrative you are pushing because nowhere in that post is there a mention of religious organizations.
I am referring to the fact that targeting low-income teens and young women to give up their children to those with more income and money to pay to acquire those children, should be a crime that is prosecuted along the same lines as human/sex trafficking. Period.
Forty years ago it was not impossible for women to keep their babies so I don't know where you are getting that nonsense from. I have several friends who chose to keep their babies and had social and family support. It was tough but there wasn't much stigma and family/friends all rallied to help out. Those kids are now in their 40s and seem to have been fine raised by single mothers and are living life well.
I also know one girl from school who went to a "maternity home" and gave her child up for adoption. She had a much more difficult time and to this day has an emptiness in her life and IMO has never psychologically recovered from that.
Yes, there is "no more anonymity" in adoption which is even worse. Now those girls/women are being told they can have open adoptions but are RARELY told that the adoptive family can rescind that at any time, for no reason. So a mother spends a year or two maybe getting to know her child via the open process and then on a whim and perhaps with no reason, the adoptive family decides she can't see the child any more.
I know of a case of that, too. The rather arrogant adoptive couple didn't like a couple of minor comments made by the bio mom so they decided it was best to cut her out. They were looking for an excuse. I hope they can explain that to their kid when they get old enough to ask.
It is problematic to speak in absolutes concerning the logistics of this issue because it is global, and situations that are no longer the norm in one locale may still be conventional in others.
However, it is my conviction as an international adoptee, a feminist and a sibling to kids who were profoundly damaged pre and/or post-birth by their birth families in such a way that they have had no ability to cultivate truly meaningful relationships, familial or otherwise, and who not only have added nothing of value to family life but in fact have detracted from it, that bringing children into the world for whom one is unable and/or unwilling to provide a life that, barring unforeseen catastrophe, imparts the resources to become a well-educated, independently functioning and emotionally, psychologically and physically healthy adult capable of attaining reasonable financial security and also happiness via meaningful relationships (familial, romantic and/or platonic) and the use of his/her/their talents to benefit him/herself/themselves and society, is not simply profoundly selfish but ethically and morally irresponsible, particularly on the part of birth parents in societies where education is compulsory through at least age 16, and abortion is a viable option. There is no adoption "industry" without people having babies for whom the rest of society has to step up and care in the first place, and while every one of us deepens our collective carbon footprint, people given consistent stability in the form of healthy familial relationships and continuous access to the basics (healthy food, safe housing and neighborhood, excellent health care and schools and opportunities to discover interests and talents via rich extracurricular activities and experiences such as visits to museums, zoos, reasonable vacations, etc.) usually make up for that debt through beneficial contributions to society as adults. It's everyone's collective responsibility not to produce children who won't be capable of becoming healthy, independently functioning adults. So I am not particularly concerned about the "rights" of birth parents, especially given a context where courts often have given precedence to them at the expense of their children's well-being. (And for the record, I am all for instituting age-appropriate education on what it means to be in and cultivate healthy familial, platonic and romantic relationships, what it means to be a good parent; financial literacy, and the relationship between how we live and its effect on the environment that all should be a regular part of school curricula; free, unlimited birth control; the development of birth control for men; and accessible abortion at any point in the pregnancy. Re: this last: do I like the idea of late abortions? No, but I like the idea of imposing decades of unnecessary suffering via the birth of an infant born with, say, FAS even less).
What are you talking about?
It doesn't know because it is AI. It's only going by the force-fed info submitted to it by the adoption industry to promote its bottom-line profitability.
I don't use AI--except when attempting to AI-proof assignments for my integrity-challenged students. Anyway, I was responding to the poster who keeps going on about the victimization of the birthmother and the problematics of the adoption industry. That is, I was simply pointing out that there wouldn't be any industry to begin with if people weren't selfish and irresponsible enough to produce babies for whom they are unable/unwilling to care in the first place. Are there moral issues related to adoption as a practice? Sure. But as my own adoptive parents once pointed out, every kid born to such parents is at risk: no one else is obligated to take on the infinite and gargantuan responsibility of parenting a child if the birthparents are unwilling and/or unable to do so; and while would-be adoptive parents have to jump through a million hoops to prove their competency as parents, it's the right of birthparents to spawn at any time, even if they happen to be meth addicts whose previous ten kids already had to be placed in foster homes because of neglect and violence.
Anonymous wrote:Adoption is whole different narrative today than from years ago. There is no such thing as a closed adoption. All parties will be known, including bio parents, grandparents, siblings, etc. Adoption was always adoptive parent centered ( saviors, rescuers) and never child centered (each child comes with their own identity, no one is being "saved"- women make adoption choices for various reasons, not because of shame or morals), but now it's child centered.
Yes, they need to be told. No, they do become the adoptive family's culture and ethnicity because they look like it or pass, yes they should know everything when age appropriate, and adoptive parents should encourage ancestry and bio family connection if child wants to. The child's identity, birthdate, everything is their own.
DNA has replaced all the cloaked secrets. There's no wondering or guessing anymore. No secrets.
I don’t know where you get any of this information from. Yes, there are still MANY closed domestic infant adoptions. And even when an open adoption is promised to a mother considering relinquishment, there is literally NO legal recourse to that mother if the adopters take her child and then immediately cut off contact, or cut off contact at a later date for whatever reason they want. And some studies show more than half of options that were promised to be open are actually closed by the adopters.
Yes, it is true that commercial DNA can reveal secrets and rcinnvtvfikyes separated by adoption loss, but that doesn’t in any way ameliorate the loss or the betrayal to both parent and child if an open adoption is later closed by the adopters.
You are also VERY wrong that relinquishing mothers no longer make these choices out of shame. Christian maternity homes are more popular than ever in the U.S. and they are almost entirely run by evangelical sects that do indeed very purposefully inflict great shame upon the pregnant girl or woman, with the entire premise of adoption being that the act of such “selfless” love is redeeming, and that by giving away their baby to more worthy parents, they are redeeming their their terrible sins of sex outside of marriage.
The podcast Liberty Lost goes into this kind of pervasive shame based messaging in great detail. The first episode opens with a scene where a relinquishing teen mom is forced into participating in this creepy ceremony where she and the father of the baby have to walk him down the aisle in a public ceremony and place him in the adopters’ arms up at the altar, to great praise from the gathering of their families and others. The entire ritual is framed as redemptive and cleansing. But everything about it is shame based
I am talking about the current general societal paradigm of adoption now vs. the Baby Scoop Era.
Yes, there are legally closed adoptions, but that is no longer something that has to be done. Closed adoptions now are much rarer because adoption is no longer just in the adoptive parents control. Or a court.
The example you gave above is extremely esoteric and culture bound, it's certainly not the norm for today compared to the 50s and 60s. There are religious sects who do creepy things, and what you describe is definitely not common at all, but keeping girls in maternity homes, out of school is actually illegal unless a family can prove she's homeschooled and there is oversight. Young mothers also have rights if they choose to buck this antiquated system, whereas years ago they had no rights. What you are talking about only exists in extreme rarity. Depending on the state, too, as marriage at 16 is still legal in some states, but that doesn't mean it's the norm.
Society has entirely changed sinced earlier generations. No mandated maternity homes, no need to marry, no need to give the child up- and that is societal, not religious. The mother has more rights when she does give the child up, too.
With regard to DNA, there is literally no more issue with biological identity at all. There is actually zero way to keep any part of the members involvement a secret. Yes, I'm sure there are open adoptions that didn't comply, but the main thing is that these children will always know who their biological family is, at some time or another.
The adoption industry is corrupt and while abuses like you mention are not as common as they used to be, there are still abuses.
Birth mothers are a necessary evil to adoption agencies. They are offered the carrot and the stick.
Just look up savings our sisters and you will see
I don't need to see. I am an adoptee and am very involved in many adoptee organizations. The issue now are religious organizations that prey on women. The big difference is that women can always choose, there's no social stigma anymore. If people are coerced into something that's an issue in itself, but the adoption process and paradigm has changed dramatically over 60 years. There's no secrets anymore.
Well, yes! WOMEN can always choose but when the "woman" is an 18 year old without any financial resources from a low-income family and they are psychologically coerced by adoptive organizations and shady adoption lawyers to give up their children with promises of a "wonderful life with a wonderful family" then, yes then that is a coercive issue. Dangle money along with that (despite it being illegal - it is done) and you have a child-for-sale situation.
To make it worse, couch it under the "private" adoption and there is virtually no oversight.
Yep, but again you are referring to religious organizations not societal. The problem for all women young, or not, is the resource angle. This is a whole different story, but it still vastly differs from even 40 years ago where even having and keeping the baby was impossible. There's ways to seek assistance, the woman just needs to know what and how. The baby daddy is now held to account, regardless of age -child support,everything. If he cannot, he will go through the law.
Regarding private adoptions, which still are happening, there are definitive laws around those. It's not gray market or black market as a general rule, although I'm sure it happens, especially with overseas adoption. My birth certificate is not even real, and I will never know my actual birthday. I was literally sold to the highest bidder. Laws have tightened up.
But, exploitation happens in all arenas regarding family building- fertility clinics, sperm and egg donation, surrogacy for sure, and adoption. The difference is woman can still choose, they can abort ( depending where they live now) they can be unwed, they can still work, and if they do choose adoption, there's no more anonymity.
You obviously have a pro-adoption narrative you are pushing because nowhere in that post is there a mention of religious organizations.
I am referring to the fact that targeting low-income teens and young women to give up their children to those with more income and money to pay to acquire those children, should be a crime that is prosecuted along the same lines as human/sex trafficking. Period.
Forty years ago it was not impossible for women to keep their babies so I don't know where you are getting that nonsense from. I have several friends who chose to keep their babies and had social and family support. It was tough but there wasn't much stigma and family/friends all rallied to help out. Those kids are now in their 40s and seem to have been fine raised by single mothers and are living life well.
I also know one girl from school who went to a "maternity home" and gave her child up for adoption. She had a much more difficult time and to this day has an emptiness in her life and IMO has never psychologically recovered from that.
Yes, there is "no more anonymity" in adoption which is even worse. Now those girls/women are being told they can have open adoptions but are RARELY told that the adoptive family can rescind that at any time, for no reason. So a mother spends a year or two maybe getting to know her child via the open process and then on a whim and perhaps with no reason, the adoptive family decides she can't see the child any more.
I know of a case of that, too. The rather arrogant adoptive couple didn't like a couple of minor comments made by the bio mom so they decided it was best to cut her out. They were looking for an excuse. I hope they can explain that to their kid when they get old enough to ask.
It is problematic to speak in absolutes concerning the logistics of this issue because it is global, and situations that are no longer the norm in one locale may still be conventional in others.
However, it is my conviction as an international adoptee, a feminist and a sibling to kids who were profoundly damaged pre and/or post-birth by their birth families in such a way that they have had no ability to cultivate truly meaningful relationships, familial or otherwise, and who not only have added nothing of value to family life but in fact have detracted from it, that bringing children into the world for whom one is unable and/or unwilling to provide a life that, barring unforeseen catastrophe, imparts the resources to become a well-educated, independently functioning and emotionally, psychologically and physically healthy adult capable of attaining reasonable financial security and also happiness via meaningful relationships (familial, romantic and/or platonic) and the use of his/her/their talents to benefit him/herself/themselves and society, is not simply profoundly selfish but ethically and morally irresponsible, particularly on the part of birth parents in societies where education is compulsory through at least age 16, and abortion is a viable option. There is no adoption "industry" without people having babies for whom the rest of society has to step up and care in the first place, and while every one of us deepens our collective carbon footprint, people given consistent stability in the form of healthy familial relationships and continuous access to the basics (healthy food, safe housing and neighborhood, excellent health care and schools and opportunities to discover interests and talents via rich extracurricular activities and experiences such as visits to museums, zoos, reasonable vacations, etc.) usually make up for that debt through beneficial contributions to society as adults. It's everyone's collective responsibility not to produce children who won't be capable of becoming healthy, independently functioning adults. So I am not particularly concerned about the "rights" of birth parents, especially given a context where courts often have given precedence to them at the expense of their children's well-being. (And for the record, I am all for instituting age-appropriate education on what it means to be in and cultivate healthy familial, platonic and romantic relationships, what it means to be a good parent; financial literacy, and the relationship between how we live and its effect on the environment that all should be a regular part of school curricula; free, unlimited birth control; the development of birth control for men; and accessible abortion at any point in the pregnancy. Re: this last: do I like the idea of late abortions? No, but I like the idea of imposing decades of unnecessary suffering via the birth of an infant born with, say, FAS even less).
What are you talking about?
It doesn't know because it is AI. It's only going by the force-fed info submitted to it by the adoption industry to promote its bottom-line profitability.
I don't use AI--except when attempting to AI-proof assignments for my integrity-challenged students. Anyway, I was responding to the poster who keeps going on about the victimization of the birthmother and the problematics of the adoption industry. That is, I was simply pointing out that there wouldn't be any industry to begin with if people weren't selfish and irresponsible enough to produce babies for whom they are unable/unwilling to care in the first place. Are there moral issues related to adoption as a practice? Sure. But as my own adoptive parents once pointed out, every kid born to such parents is at risk: no one else is obligated to take on the infinite and gargantuan responsibility of parenting a child if the birthparents are unwilling and/or unable to do so; and while would-be adoptive parents have to jump through a million hoops to prove their competency as parents, it's the right of birthparents to spawn at any time, even if they happen to be meth addicts whose previous ten kids already had to be placed in foster homes because of neglect and violence.
I call this a fake post.
Every adoptive parent knows that the industry is abusive and birth parents are being pressured.
Adoptive parents do have to jump through some hoops, but not a million. Adoptive parents are more educated on the topic than the general public.
There is no way a real adoptive parent would use such hateful language about birth parents spawn.
Very very few women have 10 kids and even fewer have 10 in foster care.
Adoption is born out of a loss. You can’t acuse a birth parent of abuse or neglect.
I don't use AI--except when attempting to AI-proof assignments for my integrity-challenged students. Anyway, I was responding to the poster who keeps going on about the victimization of the birthmother and the problematics of the adoption industry. That is, I was simply pointing out that there wouldn't be any industry to begin with if people weren't selfish and irresponsible enough to produce babies for whom they are unable/unwilling to care in the first place. Are there moral issues related to adoption as a practice? Sure. But as my own adoptive parents once pointed out, every kid born to such parents is at risk: no one else is obligated to take on the infinite and gargantuan responsibility of parenting a child if the birthparents are unwilling and/or unable to do so; and while would-be adoptive parents have to jump through a million hoops to prove their competency as parents, it's the right of birthparents to spawn at any time, even if they happen to be meth addicts whose previous ten kids already had to be placed in foster homes because of neglect and violence.
I call this a fake post.
Every adoptive parent knows that the industry is abusive and birth parents are being pressured.
Adoptive parents do have to jump through some hoops, but not a million. Adoptive parents are more educated on the topic than the general public.
There is no way a real adoptive parent would use such hateful language about birth parents spawn.
Very very few women have 10 kids and even fewer have 10 in foster care.
Adoption is born out of a loss. You can’t acuse a birth parent of abuse or neglect.
Not the PP you were responding too but even though their language was a bit harsh, some of the observations were quite accurate. The amount of flyspecking that we had to go through in the adoption process--- the amount of background materials, references, financial and health information, submitting every address you had ever resided at---was quite something. And while I know that there is a very good reason for wanting to make sure that adoptive parents are going to be healthy, financially stable individuals of good character---emotionally I did feel a little resentful like the PP. And yes, PP's language towards birth parents was a little tough but I knew of cases (we adopted internationally) where poverty stricken severe alcoholics produced 7+ kids only to have each one taken away for neglect and abuse. Our DC was also completely abandoned by the birthparents after being removed from their care. And for the anti-adoption folks who just believe that all birth parents can become loving competent parents if provided enough "wraparound services" ---that view is naive. There are some people who just do not want to be parents and there are some people who are incapable of being decent parents.
I don't use AI--except when attempting to AI-proof assignments for my integrity-challenged students. Anyway, I was responding to the poster who keeps going on about the victimization of the birthmother and the problematics of the adoption industry. That is, I was simply pointing out that there wouldn't be any industry to begin with if people weren't selfish and irresponsible enough to produce babies for whom they are unable/unwilling to care in the first place. Are there moral issues related to adoption as a practice? Sure. But as my own adoptive parents once pointed out, every kid born to such parents is at risk: no one else is obligated to take on the infinite and gargantuan responsibility of parenting a child if the birthparents are unwilling and/or unable to do so; and while would-be adoptive parents have to jump through a million hoops to prove their competency as parents, it's the right of birthparents to spawn at any time, even if they happen to be meth addicts whose previous ten kids already had to be placed in foster homes because of neglect and violence.
I call this a fake post.
Every adoptive parent knows that the industry is abusive and birth parents are being pressured.
Adoptive parents do have to jump through some hoops, but not a million. Adoptive parents are more educated on the topic than the general public.
There is no way a real adoptive parent would use such hateful language about birth parents spawn.
Very very few women have 10 kids and even fewer have 10 in foster care.
Adoption is born out of a loss. You can’t acuse a birth parent of abuse or neglect.
Not the PP you were responding too but even though their language was a bit harsh, some of the observations were quite accurate. The amount of flyspecking that we had to go through in the adoption process--- the amount of background materials, references, financial and health information, submitting every address you had ever resided at---was quite something. And while I know that there is a very good reason for wanting to make sure that adoptive parents are going to be healthy, financially stable individuals of good character---emotionally I did feel a little resentful like the PP. And yes, PP's language towards birth parents was a little tough but I knew of cases (we adopted internationally) where poverty stricken severe alcoholics produced 7+ kids only to have each one taken away for neglect and abuse. Our DC was also completely abandoned by the birthparents after being removed from their care. And for the anti-adoption folks who just believe that all birth parents can become loving competent parents if provided enough "wraparound services" ---that view is naive. There are some people who just do not want to be parents and there are some people who are incapable of being decent parents.
Am I the only one who gets a yucky feeling when adoptive parents talk about their child’s birth family like that?
This poster is trying to put themselves on a pedestal
I don't use AI--except when attempting to AI-proof assignments for my integrity-challenged students. Anyway, I was responding to the poster who keeps going on about the victimization of the birthmother and the problematics of the adoption industry. That is, I was simply pointing out that there wouldn't be any industry to begin with if people weren't selfish and irresponsible enough to produce babies for whom they are unable/unwilling to care in the first place. Are there moral issues related to adoption as a practice? Sure. But as my own adoptive parents once pointed out, every kid born to such parents is at risk: no one else is obligated to take on the infinite and gargantuan responsibility of parenting a child if the birthparents are unwilling and/or unable to do so; and while would-be adoptive parents have to jump through a million hoops to prove their competency as parents, it's the right of birthparents to spawn at any time, even if they happen to be meth addicts whose previous ten kids already had to be placed in foster homes because of neglect and violence.
I call this a fake post.
Every adoptive parent knows that the industry is abusive and birth parents are being pressured.
Adoptive parents do have to jump through some hoops, but not a million. Adoptive parents are more educated on the topic than the general public.
There is no way a real adoptive parent would use such hateful language about birth parents spawn.
Very very few women have 10 kids and even fewer have 10 in foster care.
Adoption is born out of a loss. You can’t acuse a birth parent of abuse or neglect.
Not the PP you were responding too but even though their language was a bit harsh, some of the observations were quite accurate. The amount of flyspecking that we had to go through in the adoption process--- the amount of background materials, references, financial and health information, submitting every address you had ever resided at---was quite something. And while I know that there is a very good reason for wanting to make sure that adoptive parents are going to be healthy, financially stable individuals of good character---emotionally I did feel a little resentful like the PP. And yes, PP's language towards birth parents was a little tough but I knew of cases (we adopted internationally) where poverty stricken severe alcoholics produced 7+ kids only to have each one taken away for neglect and abuse. Our DC was also completely abandoned by the birthparents after being removed from their care. And for the anti-adoption folks who just believe that all birth parents can become loving competent parents if provided enough "wraparound services" ---that view is naive. There are some people who just do not want to be parents and there are some people who are incapable of being decent parents.
Am I the only one who gets a yucky feeling when adoptive parents talk about their child’s birth family like that?
This poster is trying to put themselves on a pedestal
Not only that, but the fact is that when the adoption is done privately there are a LOT of corners that get cut. The couple we know adopted and paid a handsome sum to the attorney. They had money to do so. We also suspect the birth parents were "paid" in some form. Of course outright buying of a baby is illegal but there are undoubtedly loopholes where money can flow. They said it was an open adoption but now the child is old enough to actually know/recognize the birth parents, it's funny how the adoptive parents now find reasons to start closing that door. Imagine it won't be long before they cut off bio parents completely.
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