Interesting new study about the 4 types of autism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:These are not new categories of autism. They looked at non-core features of autism as currently diagnosed and grouped them. In the same way you wouldn’t say there are “types of depression” based on non-core criteria. Like, you could take all the people diagnosed with depression and group them based on IQ, extroversion/introversion, height, weight, etc etc. Unless you have a theory about why these grouping criteria are causal or relate to the *core symptoms* of the dx, this is a pretty useless activity.

didn’t the study find that these different groups correlated with different genetic markers?

This is the most important part of the study, IMO. We could argue about the categories (and the names of the categories) and maybe there should be 1 or 2 more categories. But this is the most interesting part of it.

I don’t find anything at all interesting about it. billions of dollars have been wasted trying to find genetic markers of autism and other DSM conditions. Unless your goal is to create a prenatal test to abort babies with supposed autism genes, I don’t see anything fruitful.

Genome editing to reverse behaviors associated with autism. Same goal as the successful fecal transplant studies.

Yeah that is not going to happen. fecal transplants are something totally different.

Different mechanisms but same goal. Genome therapy is here, read about it.

Plenty of people are flying out of fhe country to get stem cell therapy

Oh ffs. people.

NP it's not our problem that you're an idiot who doesn't read the news.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/infant-rare-incurable-disease-first-successfully-receive-personalized-gene-therapy-treatment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fifth type in my opinion. PDA along with Level 1 ASD, ADHD, and anxiety.

This is my kid. It’s such a hard type to parent. I’m at a loss regarding what to do. Any thoughts?

I wish it were recognized because it's so hard to get providers to understand our children. When someone tells me their child is PDA, I just get it. They don't have to tell me Level 1 ASD, ADHD, anxiety, OCD, gifted, NT passing but needs lots of support, etc. It would be so much easier to communicate with providers, schools, and other parents if it had the recognition it deserves. We're still walking the tight rope of lower demands, offering choices, using declarative language but also imposing logical consequences for behavior that is truly destructive or hurtful. I can appreciate the perspective of PDA podcasters, but I am really frustrated by the lack of guidance about how to impose consequences that are fair, consistent, and don't trigger the PDA response. You can't just not discipline your child. I'm very interested to see the outcome of this low-demand parenting as most of these podcasters have minor children.

I don’t think you should parent via podcast. clinicians are very well versed in oppositional behavior- it’s not like it’s some sudden unknown thing uncovered by podcasters.

I don’t parent from podcasts, but I do pick up tricks here and there. Providers here don’t recognize PDA. It’s a drive for autonomy that overrides even basic survival instincts. It stems from severe anxiety and a nervous system disorder. Rewards and tokens make it worse, not better.

Oppositional behavior is the bread and butter of child therapists. It is not some kind of unknown.

Different etiology. PDA is not conduct disorder. Again, you’re proving the point that’s it’s not well understood.

please enlighten us on the etiology of PDA …

I already did above. You don’t have to agree, but parents dealing with it are really on their own. ABA is useful for so many behaviors, but can make the PDA worse. Enjoy your NT or neatly diagnosed ND child.

Oh look the ABA “expert” is back! Still haven’t told us where you got your nonexistent ABA degree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These are not new categories of autism. They looked at non-core features of autism as currently diagnosed and grouped them. In the same way you wouldn’t say there are “types of depression” based on non-core criteria. Like, you could take all the people diagnosed with depression and group them based on IQ, extroversion/introversion, height, weight, etc etc. Unless you have a theory about why these grouping criteria are causal or relate to the *core symptoms* of the dx, this is a pretty useless activity.

didn’t the study find that these different groups correlated with different genetic markers?

This is the most important part of the study, IMO. We could argue about the categories (and the names of the categories) and maybe there should be 1 or 2 more categories. But this is the most interesting part of it.

I don’t find anything at all interesting about it. billions of dollars have been wasted trying to find genetic markers of autism and other DSM conditions. Unless your goal is to create a prenatal test to abort babies with supposed autism genes, I don’t see anything fruitful.

Genome editing to reverse behaviors associated with autism. Same goal as the successful fecal transplant studies.

Yeah that is not going to happen. fecal transplants are something totally different.

Different mechanisms but same goal. Genome therapy is here, read about it.

Plenty of people are flying out of fhe country to get stem cell therapy

Oh ffs. people.

NP it's not our problem that you're an idiot who doesn't read the news.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/infant-rare-incurable-disease-first-successfully-receive-personalized-gene-therapy-treatment

That’s not what people “flying out of the country to get stem cell transplants” are doing …

But hey if you think this all means your kid can get a stem cell transplant to cure autism don’t let me burst your bubble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fifth type in my opinion. PDA along with Level 1 ASD, ADHD, and anxiety.

This is my kid. It’s such a hard type to parent. I’m at a loss regarding what to do. Any thoughts?

I wish it were recognized because it's so hard to get providers to understand our children. When someone tells me their child is PDA, I just get it. They don't have to tell me Level 1 ASD, ADHD, anxiety, OCD, gifted, NT passing but needs lots of support, etc. It would be so much easier to communicate with providers, schools, and other parents if it had the recognition it deserves. We're still walking the tight rope of lower demands, offering choices, using declarative language but also imposing logical consequences for behavior that is truly destructive or hurtful. I can appreciate the perspective of PDA podcasters, but I am really frustrated by the lack of guidance about how to impose consequences that are fair, consistent, and don't trigger the PDA response. You can't just not discipline your child. I'm very interested to see the outcome of this low-demand parenting as most of these podcasters have minor children.

I don’t think you should parent via podcast. clinicians are very well versed in oppositional behavior- it’s not like it’s some sudden unknown thing uncovered by podcasters.

I don’t parent from podcasts, but I do pick up tricks here and there. Providers here don’t recognize PDA. It’s a drive for autonomy that overrides even basic survival instincts. It stems from severe anxiety and a nervous system disorder. Rewards and tokens make it worse, not better.

Oppositional behavior is the bread and butter of child therapists. It is not some kind of unknown.

Different etiology. PDA is not conduct disorder. Again, you’re proving the point that’s it’s not well understood.

please enlighten us on the etiology of PDA …

I already did above. You don’t have to agree, but parents dealing with it are really on their own. ABA is useful for so many behaviors, but can make the PDA worse. Enjoy your NT or neatly diagnosed ND child.

It’s a total self-serving fiction to claim that “nobody understands PDA!” Any child psychologist who is minimally competent has many tools to address noncompliance. And this includes approaches for children less sensitive to rewards. If you choose to seek out podcasts instead of doctors that is your issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These are not new categories of autism. They looked at non-core features of autism as currently diagnosed and grouped them. In the same way you wouldn’t say there are “types of depression” based on non-core criteria. Like, you could take all the people diagnosed with depression and group them based on IQ, extroversion/introversion, height, weight, etc etc. Unless you have a theory about why these grouping criteria are causal or relate to the *core symptoms* of the dx, this is a pretty useless activity.

didn’t the study find that these different groups correlated with different genetic markers?

This is the most important part of the study, IMO. We could argue about the categories (and the names of the categories) and maybe there should be 1 or 2 more categories. But this is the most interesting part of it.

I don’t find anything at all interesting about it. billions of dollars have been wasted trying to find genetic markers of autism and other DSM conditions. Unless your goal is to create a prenatal test to abort babies with supposed autism genes, I don’t see anything fruitful.

Genome editing to reverse behaviors associated with autism. Same goal as the successful fecal transplant studies.

Yeah that is not going to happen. fecal transplants are something totally different.

Different mechanisms but same goal. Genome therapy is here, read about it.

Plenty of people are flying out of fhe country to get stem cell therapy

Oh ffs. people.

NP it's not our problem that you're an idiot who doesn't read the news.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/infant-rare-incurable-disease-first-successfully-receive-personalized-gene-therapy-treatment

That’s not what people “flying out of the country to get stem cell transplants” are doing …

But hey if you think this all means your kid can get a stem cell transplant to cure autism don’t let me burst your bubble.

I'm not the person talking about stem cell therapies, but you seem to be denying the existence of very real things like genome editing. This conversation is about the goal of this type of research, which is to reverse symptoms of autism. Yes, things like genome AND stem cell therapy might be effective. Please read the research before you mouth off.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9114801/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I read about the four sub-types in the summary, it really brings to mind the disorder formerly known as “Aspberger’s,” and then ASD level 1–2-3 in that order. I would like to see the “social and behavioral challenges” group that has at least average IQ, reaches developmental milestones, and struggles with anxiety, OCD, ADHD etc. as a completely separate diagnosis from ASD. I get that they are the largest group in terms of size, but their challenges are soooo much different from kids who use communication devices, have multiple learning disabilities, low IQ, can’t be in regular school classes, and so on. And it’s diluting care and resources from those who most need it. I also think ASD is being over-diagnosed in older kids, teens, young adults, and even adults, because it’s somehow easier to accept an autism diagnosis vs. some combination of OCD-anxiety-depression-ADHD giving you a somewhat “difficult” personality.

The kids who need care, need care. Period. No one is more or less deserving of healthcare - regardless of why they need it.

I think it’s interesting to take a cost benefit analysis stance and say that of course all kids deserve care but there’s a subgroup of kids who are “mildly” affected who would definitely benefit from early and skilled behavioral and social skills support and intervention. And that in the long run that this is money well spent. Because the ceiling for improvement is higher than foe someone who is more severely affected.

I’m not sure why anyone would argue against getting the taxpayer funded benefits that come from an early autism diagnosis.

I certainly wish my ADHD son, who may also be on the spectrum, had received such a diagnosis early on. I wish I had pursued one.

But all assumed that his issues were behavioral because in short he was very verbal, bright, outgoing and could make eye contact. When teachers provided assessments for his evaluation he scored as low as you can score on the is this autism scale.

He was often disciplined for being too loud in class, speaking out of turn, getting in to other people’s personal space, and on and on, essentially being a mini bulldozer who lacked the ability to pick up social cues.

It’s really broken him down over time.

In hindsight he would have really benefited from the wrap around services that an early autism diagnosis and early intervention would have made him eligible for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They need to bring back onset before age 3, that would solve everything.

That was the dividing line between "Asperger's" and "classic" (or Kanner) autism, wasn't it? But they did away with those categories.

My kid either the first category or the third - generally developmentally on track with a history of severe anxiety but doing well now overall with social skills and executive functioning supports outside of school and a 504 plan in school. Still young so may be hard to see all the ways she is impacted but can be considered subtle right now (though it is obvious to me).

Despite it being "subtle" no question she has been autistic since infancy. The severe anxiety became apparent at age 2.

This is also true for my kid but it wasn't diagnosed early, specifically because it didn't present with the severe communication deficits (she is hyper-verbal) or developmental delays. But she didn't potty train until age 4, she had selective mutism in PK, and she has extreme anxiety that gets read as shyness and awkwardness by teachers and others.

I think it's obvious that "mild" forms of autism are genetic and begin presenting very early on, but because these kids tend to walk and talk on time and their autistic behaviors may not be as extreme, they are less likely to be identified until later when school and social demands become more complex and it's more clear that these kids have neurodivergence.

It's also common for the co-occurring disorders to be diagnosed first -- anxiety, OCD, ADHD. I feel like I see this with girls often, far more often than with boys.

Then it’s not autism.

I know autistic people who are hyper verbal, when in a social situation, they talk at you, and not to you pretty much all of the time.

And they aren’t bothered because they appear to have no clue that what they are engaged in isn’t a conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I read about the four sub-types in the summary, it really brings to mind the disorder formerly known as “Aspberger’s,” and then ASD level 1–2-3 in that order. I would like to see the “social and behavioral challenges” group that has at least average IQ, reaches developmental milestones, and struggles with anxiety, OCD, ADHD etc. as a completely separate diagnosis from ASD. I get that they are the largest group in terms of size, but their challenges are soooo much different from kids who use communication devices, have multiple learning disabilities, low IQ, can’t be in regular school classes, and so on. And it’s diluting care and resources from those who most need it. I also think ASD is being over-diagnosed in older kids, teens, young adults, and even adults, because it’s somehow easier to accept an autism diagnosis vs. some combination of OCD-anxiety-depression-ADHD giving you a somewhat “difficult” personality.

The kids who need care, need care. Period. No one is more or less deserving of healthcare - regardless of why they need it.

I think it’s interesting to take a cost benefit analysis stance and say that of course all kids deserve care but there’s a subgroup of kids who are “mildly” affected who would definitely benefit from early and skilled behavioral and social skills support and intervention. And that in the long run that this is money well spent. Because the ceiling for improvement is higher than foe someone who is more severely affected.

I’m not sure why anyone would argue against getting the taxpayer funded benefits that come from an early autism diagnosis.

I certainly wish my ADHD son, who may also be on the spectrum, had received such a diagnosis early on. I wish I had pursued one.

But all assumed that his issues were behavioral because in short he was very verbal, bright, outgoing and could make eye contact. When teachers provided assessments for his evaluation he scored as low as you can score on the is this autism scale.

He was often disciplined for being too loud in class, speaking out of turn, getting in to other people’s personal space, and on and on, essentially being a mini bulldozer who lacked the ability to pick up social cues.

It’s really broken him down over time.

In hindsight he would have really benefited from the wrap around services that an early autism diagnosis and early intervention would have made him eligible for.

I'm the PP you're quoting - and all I mean is that kids who need support should get it. Whether they're mildly affected, severely affected, or somewhere in between. And they should get it when the need is determined, or when parents ask for it. My son wasn't diagnosed until he was almost 12 because he didn't have issues at school, so all the issues at home (probably from being exhausted from masking all day) were parenting problems. And therefore solely the fault of his mother (me). My son walked, talked, met all milestones on time or early, but had social deficits that should have been caught sooner by providers and the school frankly. We hit a major crisis during COVID and that's when we finally started getting the right support, but had it been found earlier (had anyone actually listened to me rather than just tell me it was my fault), that crisis could have been either entirely avoided, or much less traumatic for all of us.

[Anonymous]

I believe that this is due to assortative mating.
In the past there were always useful roles for these mild "human calculator" types. Geographically it would be rare for them to meet and marry each other.
With women in college and mobility these types are finding each other and having children. When these genes are concentrated and expressed strongly it manifests as autism.
Even mild autism is looked down on now because we have computers to do numerical and analytic work, so career success is much more dependent on social skills and charisma. You could be an unlikable nerd in the past and still make great money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Fifth type in my opinion. PDA along with Level 1 ASD, ADHD, and anxiety.

This is my kid. It’s such a hard type to parent. I’m at a loss regarding what to do. Any thoughts?

I wish it were recognized because it's so hard to get providers to understand our children. When someone tells me their child is PDA, I just get it. They don't have to tell me Level 1 ASD, ADHD, anxiety, OCD, gifted, NT passing but needs lots of support, etc. It would be so much easier to communicate with providers, schools, and other parents if it had the recognition it deserves. We're still walking the tight rope of lower demands, offering choices, using declarative language but also imposing logical consequences for behavior that is truly destructive or hurtful. I can appreciate the perspective of PDA podcasters, but I am really frustrated by the lack of guidance about how to impose consequences that are fair, consistent, and don't trigger the PDA response. You can't just not discipline your child. I'm very interested to see the outcome of this low-demand parenting as most of these podcasters have minor children.

I don’t think you should parent via podcast. clinicians are very well versed in oppositional behavior- it’s not like it’s some sudden unknown thing uncovered by podcasters.

I don’t parent from podcasts, but I do pick up tricks here and there. Providers here don’t recognize PDA. It’s a drive for autonomy that overrides even basic survival instincts. It stems from severe anxiety and a nervous system disorder. Rewards and tokens make it worse, not better.

Oppositional behavior is the bread and butter of child therapists. It is not some kind of unknown.

Different etiology. PDA is not conduct disorder. Again, you’re proving the point that’s it’s not well understood.

please enlighten us on the etiology of PDA …

I already did above. You don’t have to agree, but parents dealing with it are really on their own. ABA is useful for so many behaviors, but can make the PDA worse. Enjoy your NT or neatly diagnosed ND child.

Oh look the ABA “expert” is back! Still haven’t told us where you got your nonexistent ABA degree.

Not that poster. You’re either miserable, stupid, or a troll.

[Anonymous]

Show of hands as we are talking about the biology behind autism- how many here have sought out a FRAT test for their autistic family members?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Show of hands as we are talking about the biology behind autism- how many here have sought out a FRAT test for their autistic family members?

I am totally opposed to genetic testing that doesn’t have any benefit. so no, of course not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These are not new categories of autism. They looked at non-core features of autism as currently diagnosed and grouped them. In the same way you wouldn’t say there are “types of depression” based on non-core criteria. Like, you could take all the people diagnosed with depression and group them based on IQ, extroversion/introversion, height, weight, etc etc. Unless you have a theory about why these grouping criteria are causal or relate to the *core symptoms* of the dx, this is a pretty useless activity.

didn’t the study find that these different groups correlated with different genetic markers?

This is the most important part of the study, IMO. We could argue about the categories (and the names of the categories) and maybe there should be 1 or 2 more categories. But this is the most interesting part of it.

I don’t find anything at all interesting about it. billions of dollars have been wasted trying to find genetic markers of autism and other DSM conditions. Unless your goal is to create a prenatal test to abort babies with supposed autism genes, I don’t see anything fruitful.

Genome editing to reverse behaviors associated with autism. Same goal as the successful fecal transplant studies.

Yeah that is not going to happen. fecal transplants are something totally different.

Different mechanisms but same goal. Genome therapy is here, read about it.

Plenty of people are flying out of fhe country to get stem cell therapy

Oh ffs. people.

NP it's not our problem that you're an idiot who doesn't read the news.

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/infant-rare-incurable-disease-first-successfully-receive-personalized-gene-therapy-treatment

That’s not what people “flying out of the country to get stem cell transplants” are doing …

But hey if you think this all means your kid can get a stem cell transplant to cure autism don’t let me burst your bubble.

I'm not the person talking about stem cell therapies, but you seem to be denying the existence of very real things like genome editing. This conversation is about the goal of this type of research, which is to reverse symptoms of autism. Yes, things like genome AND stem cell therapy might be effective. Please read the research before you mouth off.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9114801/

obviously I know genome editing exists. The idea that is is going to be used to cure autism as it currently is diagnosed is just dumb. There is no “autism gene” for starters …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I read about the four sub-types in the summary, it really brings to mind the disorder formerly known as “Aspberger’s,” and then ASD level 1–2-3 in that order. I would like to see the “social and behavioral challenges” group that has at least average IQ, reaches developmental milestones, and struggles with anxiety, OCD, ADHD etc. as a completely separate diagnosis from ASD. I get that they are the largest group in terms of size, but their challenges are soooo much different from kids who use communication devices, have multiple learning disabilities, low IQ, can’t be in regular school classes, and so on. And it’s diluting care and resources from those who most need it. I also think ASD is being over-diagnosed in older kids, teens, young adults, and even adults, because it’s somehow easier to accept an autism diagnosis vs. some combination of OCD-anxiety-depression-ADHD giving you a somewhat “difficult” personality.

The kids who need care, need care. Period. No one is more or less deserving of healthcare - regardless of why they need it.

I think it’s interesting to take a cost benefit analysis stance and say that of course all kids deserve care but there’s a subgroup of kids who are “mildly” affected who would definitely benefit from early and skilled behavioral and social skills support and intervention. And that in the long run that this is money well spent. Because the ceiling for improvement is higher than foe someone who is more severely affected.

I’m not sure why anyone would argue against getting the taxpayer funded benefits that come from an early autism diagnosis.

I certainly wish my ADHD son, who may also be on the spectrum, had received such a diagnosis early on. I wish I had pursued one.

But all assumed that his issues were behavioral because in short he was very verbal, bright, outgoing and could make eye contact. When teachers provided assessments for his evaluation he scored as low as you can score on the is this autism scale.

He was often disciplined for being too loud in class, speaking out of turn, getting in to other people’s personal space, and on and on, essentially being a mini bulldozer who lacked the ability to pick up social cues.

It’s really broken him down over time.

In hindsight he would have really benefited from the wrap around services that an early autism diagnosis and early intervention would have made him eligible for.

lol. I have a kid like that. What “early intervention and wrap around services” do you think exist? They really don’t. there is no magic intervention for high functioning kids. And even though my kid was dx’d at 6 and got a fair amount of services, his needs are still totally different (greater and lesser in different respects) than in early elementary school. Meanwhile kids with severe autism and their families will need actual intensive care and services their whole lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They need to bring back onset before age 3, that would solve everything.

That was the dividing line between "Asperger's" and "classic" (or Kanner) autism, wasn't it? But they did away with those categories.

My kid either the first category or the third - generally developmentally on track with a history of severe anxiety but doing well now overall with social skills and executive functioning supports outside of school and a 504 plan in school. Still young so may be hard to see all the ways she is impacted but can be considered subtle right now (though it is obvious to me).

Despite it being "subtle" no question she has been autistic since infancy. The severe anxiety became apparent at age 2.

This is also true for my kid but it wasn't diagnosed early, specifically because it didn't present with the severe communication deficits (she is hyper-verbal) or developmental delays. But she didn't potty train until age 4, she had selective mutism in PK, and she has extreme anxiety that gets read as shyness and awkwardness by teachers and others.

I think it's obvious that "mild" forms of autism are genetic and begin presenting very early on, but because these kids tend to walk and talk on time and their autistic behaviors may not be as extreme, they are less likely to be identified until later when school and social demands become more complex and it's more clear that these kids have neurodivergence.

It's also common for the co-occurring disorders to be diagnosed first -- anxiety, OCD, ADHD. I feel like I see this with girls often, far more often than with boys.

Then it’s not autism.

DP. With a late diagnosed girl who tested in the 99 percentile for verbal IQ. She is 2E and was similar -very advanced in language and milestones. I posted the DSM since you are using autistic stereotypes and tropes - Instead of diagnostic criteria.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/autism-diagnostic-criteria-dsm-5#:~:text=In%202013%2C%20the%20APA%20released,not%20exhaustive%2C%20see%20text):