Thomas Jefferson - How do people feel about him today?

[Anonymous]

I have mixed feelings about Jefferson. On the one hand he was brilliant and contributed much as a founding father. On the other, he was a great disappointment when it came to his personal actions with respect to slavery. He could have done better. At the time, Lafayette was extremely disappointed that the United States was a slave-owning country, and communicated as much to Jefferson and Washington, for example. It influenced Washington to free his slaves in his will, partly as an example to others. Jefferson didn’t follow up. There were others in Virginia known to Jefferson who freed their slaves, including Robert Carter III, who freed over 400 slaves by Deed of Gift over a scheduled period of time. Polish revolutionary hero Tadeusz Kosciusko even left Jefferson a substantial amount of money in his will to use to free his slaves because he couldn’t imagine any reason other than lack of funds that could keep the author of the Declaration of Independence from taking this step.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Jefferson started sleeping with Hemmings when she was 14. I can't even with these "he was a complicated man" posters. FOURTEEN.

In Shakespeare's time people were married at 14. FOURTEEN. Yeah, imagining time used to be different is difficult for some people. My great grandfather used to work at 7. SEVEN - and that's why this country implemented labor laws. Geez, times were different. Did you know women used to be treated like property? I know history is crazy. In the future we will be the crazy ones.

She was his slave, his wife's slave (and half sister) that he inherited when his wife died. I don't care if it was 1787 BC, all of it is disgusting and the Jefferson worship is awful.

Do you think you're witty, downplaying this crap?

Put that way, it sounds almost biblical.

We have had words for these relationships forever, which means these relationships have been around forever. Mistress, leman, affair partner, less charitably adulteress. Consort, concubine, placee. Etc.

Here’s the word you’re missing: slave. She was his slave. She was his 14 year old slave.

She had a relationship very similar to a placee, although not as formal. You can erase that, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

She was not a free woman. He literally owned her, as if she were livestock.

Nothing in her life was truly her own choice, including her sexual relationships. Or pregnancies.

IOW, she had slightly fewer options than his wife. But she wasn't powerless, she had options and made decisions.

She was powerless. If she stayed in France she would never see her mother or other siblings again. She was 16 at the time. She traded her future children’s freedom to return as a slave where she lived in a room under the porch. Jefferson wanted her back with him so he could keep having sex with her. He didn’t love her. He never freed her. Not in France, manipulated her with a false choice to come back, she had 6 more kids with him, she slept under the porch, until HE died.

She was 75% white. She was a child. Didn’t matter. Jefferson was vile.

She had choices which means she had power. More than most other enslaved people (and more than some white women). When you dismiss that, you are denying her agency. (And Jefferson was also restricted in how he could treat her, as well. He was not free from the rules of society either.)

She didn’t truly have choices or rights. She was 100% at his mercy.

She had a far better life by being Jefferson's concubine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s to know?

He’s a dead, white, male, cisgender, slave-owner. Full stop.

Without whom you would not live in a country that allows you this post. If this is your contribution to the world as opposed to Jefferson, you are indeed at a full stop. And amusing as well.

I agree.

This trope of "died white racist guy" is so boring and unintelligent. We can appreciate Thomas Jefferson's brilliance and genius, his vision for humanity and America and the way he used his intellect to propel forward the birth of a great new nation that still stands 200 years later. We can also assess him critically for being human, flawed, and bound to the social mores of his time. He wouldn't be the first or the last person to have contradictions in his views of the world.

THIS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson started sleeping with Hemmings when she was 14. I can't even with these "he was a complicated man" posters. FOURTEEN.

In Shakespeare's time people were married at 14. FOURTEEN. Yeah, imagining time used to be different is difficult for some people. My great grandfather used to work at 7. SEVEN - and that's why this country implemented labor laws. Geez, times were different. Did you know women used to be treated like property? I know history is crazy. In the future we will be the crazy ones.

She was his slave, his wife's slave (and half sister) that he inherited when his wife died. I don't care if it was 1787 BC, all of it is disgusting and the Jefferson worship is awful.

Do you think you're witty, downplaying this crap?

Put that way, it sounds almost biblical.

We have had words for these relationships forever, which means these relationships have been around forever. Mistress, leman, affair partner, less charitably adulteress. Consort, concubine, placee. Etc.

Here’s the word you’re missing: slave. She was his slave. She was his 14 year old slave.

She had a relationship very similar to a placee, although not as formal. You can erase that, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

She was not a free woman. He literally owned her, as if she were livestock.

Nothing in her life was truly her own choice, including her sexual relationships. Or pregnancies.

IOW, she had slightly fewer options than his wife. But she wasn't powerless, she had options and made decisions.

She was powerless. If she stayed in France she would never see her mother or other siblings again. She was 16 at the time. She traded her future children’s freedom to return as a slave where she lived in a room under the porch. Jefferson wanted her back with him so he could keep having sex with her. He didn’t love her. He never freed her. Not in France, manipulated her with a false choice to come back, she had 6 more kids with him, she slept under the porch, until HE died.

She was 75% white. She was a child. Didn’t matter. Jefferson was vile.

She had choices which means she had power. More than most other enslaved people (and more than some white women). When you dismiss that, you are denying her agency. (And Jefferson was also restricted in how he could treat her, as well. He was not free from the rules of society either.)

She didn’t truly have choices or rights. She was 100% at his mercy.

She had a far better life by being Jefferson's concubine.

Ok. And? She got lucky that he didn’t treat her even more like sht?

If he loved her he should have freed her and her family. Nothing stopping him. Instead he chose to own her. She had no agency. No power. She was not a free woman making her own decisions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have mixed feelings about Jefferson. On the one hand he was brilliant and contributed much as a founding father. On the other, he was a great disappointment when it came to his personal actions with respect to slavery. He could have done better. At the time, Lafayette was extremely disappointed that the United States was a slave-owning country, and communicated as much to Jefferson and Washington, for example. It influenced Washington to free his slaves in his will, partly as an example to others. Jefferson didn’t follow up. There were others in Virginia known to Jefferson who freed their slaves, including Robert Carter III, who freed over 400 slaves by Deed of Gift over a scheduled period of time. Polish revolutionary hero Tadeusz Kosciusko even left Jefferson a substantial amount of money in his will to use to free his slaves because he couldn’t imagine any reason other than lack of funds that could keep the author of the Declaration of Independence from taking this step.

Dang.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s to know?

He’s a dead, white, male, cisgender, slave-owner. Full stop.

Without whom you would not live in a country that allows you this post. If this is your contribution to the world as opposed to Jefferson, you are indeed at a full stop. And amusing as well.

I agree.

This trope of "died white racist guy" is so boring and unintelligent. We can appreciate Thomas Jefferson's brilliance and genius, his vision for humanity and America and the way he used his intellect to propel forward the birth of a great new nation that still stands 200 years later. We can also assess him critically for being human, flawed, and bound to the social mores of his time. He wouldn't be the first or the last person to have contradictions in his views of the world.

He is someone who took the ideas of others and took credit for them. He essentially had good taste, not difficult when people allow you access. I get why Virginians love him for anchoring Capitol and UVA, but he isn’t a top forefather imo. Madison and Washington are far above him.

That is not true. He was extremely bright and well educated. He read extensively and was intimately aware of the mainstream ideas of liberty vs the fear of tyrannical government as he and his fellow colonists observed take over in his motherland. He was a genius in that it took him 17 days to compile these ideas and put them on paper in a way that is simple, timeless and universal. The Declaration of Independence isn't just a rebuke against the tyrannical government of King George III but a bill of human rights for all men of all time. This is due to his creative foresight and vision. The original drafts also included a strong condemnation against slavery which he was forced to remove as everyone in the Continental Congress were slave owners and they also knew emancipation was a separate cause than their immediate goal of separation from Britain.

To belittle the Declaration of Independence is really a bit much. You can criticize his contradictions and hypocrisy all you'd like but to ignore the revolutionary impact of the idea that "all men are created equal" is truly ignorant.

Is that a joke?

It’s pure hypocrisy coming from a man who owned other people.

The fact that the author was a hypocrite does not diminish the value of the sentiment nor the impact that its expression had on the world.

Of course the hypocrisy taints it.

Here we are today, still living with the impacts of that hypocrisy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s to know?

He’s a dead, white, male, cisgender, slave-owner. Full stop.

Without whom you would not live in a country that allows you this post. If this is your contribution to the world as opposed to Jefferson, you are indeed at a full stop. And amusing as well.

I agree.

This trope of "died white racist guy" is so boring and unintelligent. We can appreciate Thomas Jefferson's brilliance and genius, his vision for humanity and America and the way he used his intellect to propel forward the birth of a great new nation that still stands 200 years later. We can also assess him critically for being human, flawed, and bound to the social mores of his time. He wouldn't be the first or the last person to have contradictions in his views of the world.

He is someone who took the ideas of others and took credit for them. He essentially had good taste, not difficult when people allow you access. I get why Virginians love him for anchoring Capitol and UVA, but he isn’t a top forefather imo. Madison and Washington are far above him.

That is not true. He was extremely bright and well educated. He read extensively and was intimately aware of the mainstream ideas of liberty vs the fear of tyrannical government as he and his fellow colonists observed take over in his motherland. He was a genius in that it took him 17 days to compile these ideas and put them on paper in a way that is simple, timeless and universal. The Declaration of Independence isn't just a rebuke against the tyrannical government of King George III but a bill of human rights for all men of all time. This is due to his creative foresight and vision. The original drafts also included a strong condemnation against slavery which he was forced to remove as everyone in the Continental Congress were slave owners and they also knew emancipation was a separate cause than their immediate goal of separation from Britain.

To belittle the Declaration of Independence is really a bit much. You can criticize his contradictions and hypocrisy all you'd like but to ignore the revolutionary impact of the idea that "all men are created equal" is truly ignorant.

Is that a joke?

It’s pure hypocrisy coming from a man who owned other people.

The fact that the author was a hypocrite does not diminish the value of the sentiment nor the impact that its expression had on the world.

Of course the hypocrisy taints it.

Here we are today, still living with the impacts of that hypocrisy.

Uh no. That's not how any of that works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s to know?

He’s a dead, white, male, cisgender, slave-owner. Full stop.

Without whom you would not live in a country that allows you this post. If this is your contribution to the world as opposed to Jefferson, you are indeed at a full stop. And amusing as well.

I agree.

This trope of "died white racist guy" is so boring and unintelligent. We can appreciate Thomas Jefferson's brilliance and genius, his vision for humanity and America and the way he used his intellect to propel forward the birth of a great new nation that still stands 200 years later. We can also assess him critically for being human, flawed, and bound to the social mores of his time. He wouldn't be the first or the last person to have contradictions in his views of the world.

He is someone who took the ideas of others and took credit for them. He essentially had good taste, not difficult when people allow you access. I get why Virginians love him for anchoring Capitol and UVA, but he isn’t a top forefather imo. Madison and Washington are far above him.

That is not true. He was extremely bright and well educated. He read extensively and was intimately aware of the mainstream ideas of liberty vs the fear of tyrannical government as he and his fellow colonists observed take over in his motherland. He was a genius in that it took him 17 days to compile these ideas and put them on paper in a way that is simple, timeless and universal. The Declaration of Independence isn't just a rebuke against the tyrannical government of King George III but a bill of human rights for all men of all time. This is due to his creative foresight and vision. The original drafts also included a strong condemnation against slavery which he was forced to remove as everyone in the Continental Congress were slave owners and they also knew emancipation was a separate cause than their immediate goal of separation from Britain.

To belittle the Declaration of Independence is really a bit much. You can criticize his contradictions and hypocrisy all you'd like but to ignore the revolutionary impact of the idea that "all men are created equal" is truly ignorant.

Is that a joke?

It’s pure hypocrisy coming from a man who owned other people.

The fact that the author was a hypocrite does not diminish the value of the sentiment nor the impact that its expression had on the world.

Of course the hypocrisy taints it.

Here we are today, still living with the impacts of that hypocrisy.

Uh no. That's not how any of that works.

Uh, yeah. We would be in a much different place today if our “founding fathers” followed their own words.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s to know?

He’s a dead, white, male, cisgender, slave-owner. Full stop.

+1

So tired of people elevating these historical figures and not speaking the truth of who they were outloud.

Absolutely nothing wrong with the middle three adjectives- except to you SJWs. And that’s why no one takes you seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s to know?

He’s a dead, white, male, cisgender, slave-owner. Full stop.

+1

So tired of people elevating these historical figures and not speaking the truth of who they were outloud.

You mean the truth that he was the most influential and important of our Founding Fathers?

Yeah, why elevate some loser like that? Back to TikTok and influencers we go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a millennial who went to UVA so we obviously grew up admiring him. Right now I am reading a biography of him, Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power.

I am obsessed. He was so smart and well educated and ahead of his time in so many ways but I know he is considered controversial today since he was a rich plantation owner who also had a "relationship" with one of his slaves.

I am curious what people think of him these days.

How we think of many people of his era -- whether geniuses like Jefferson or farmers who used slave labor. They lived by the standards and mores of their times. The United States and a large part of the world have evolved since then. We should not judge those people by today's standards.

It’s wild how people don’t understand how our descendants will someday judge all of us for our destruction of the environment and off-shoring of slave labor under the guise of global capitalism. We get cheap crap we don’t need and we also get to pretend we’re not abusing the human beings who make it! Then to bring it full circle we can ship our trash to them and accuse them of being the ones destroying environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a millennial who went to UVA so we obviously grew up admiring him. Right now I am reading a biography of him, Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power.

I am obsessed. He was so smart and well educated and ahead of his time in so many ways but I know he is considered controversial today since he was a rich plantation owner who also had a "relationship" with one of his slaves.

I am curious what people think of him these days.

How we think of many people of his era -- whether geniuses like Jefferson or farmers who used slave labor. They lived by the standards and mores of their times. The United States and a large part of the world have evolved since then. We should not judge those people by today's standards.

It’s wild how people don’t understand how our descendants will someday judge all of us for our destruction of the environment and off-shoring of slave labor under the guise of global capitalism. We get cheap crap we don’t need and we also get to pretend we’re not abusing the human beings who make it! Then to bring it full circle we can ship our trash to them and accuse them of being the ones destroying environment.

China and India aren’t really destroying the environment? Lol

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a millennial who went to UVA so we obviously grew up admiring him. Right now I am reading a biography of him, Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power.

I am obsessed. He was so smart and well educated and ahead of his time in so many ways but I know he is considered controversial today since he was a rich plantation owner who also had a "relationship" with one of his slaves.

I am curious what people think of him these days.

How we think of many people of his era -- whether geniuses like Jefferson or farmers who used slave labor. They lived by the standards and mores of their times. The United States and a large part of the world have evolved since then. We should not judge those people by today's standards.

It’s wild how people don’t understand how our descendants will someday judge all of us for our destruction of the environment and off-shoring of slave labor under the guise of global capitalism. We get cheap crap we don’t need and we also get to pretend we’re not abusing the human beings who make it! Then to bring it full circle we can ship our trash to them and accuse them of being the ones destroying environment.

We are also knowingly burning a finite resource, fossil fuels, and watching the Atlantic Conveyer Belt slow while continuing our modern lifestyles unchanged. Etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s to know?

He’s a dead, white, male, cisgender, slave-owner. Full stop.

+1

So tired of people elevating these historical figures and not speaking the truth of who they were outloud.

You mean the truth that he was the most influential and important of our Founding Fathers?

Yeah, why elevate some loser like that? Back to TikTok and influencers we go.

I am stunned at the lack of erudition and nuance in modern public discourse. Mostly I am sad at any lack of pride at our history and heritage here in America. I understand that we should evolve with the times and assess our past so that we can work for a better more enlightened future. But I remain steadfast in my belief that history is the greatest teacher and not only do we owe a lot to our ancestors in terms of their achievements but that we still have a lot to learn from them.

When will we learn that we cannot extract these people from the time and place in which they lived their lifespans during their tenure on earth? Thomas Jefferson was without dispute the most influential man of the revolutionary generation. He was a bright and eager student who was one of the first to adapt enlightenment ideas in the colonies and include them in his work as a young lawyer. One of his earliest cases that he volunteered for required him arguing for the freedom of a mixed race enslaved man who wanted freedom from his owners. The argument he made for this man's freedom was based on the idea of freedom and personal liberty being a natural right. An idea that was revolutionary and unheard of at the time. Jefferson did not win the case and afterwards he paid the enslaved man enough money so that he could run away.

He articulated these enlightenment principles in a beautiful way in the Declaration of Independence and created a document that became the very inspiration for the emancipation movement that followed.

America in 1776 was a very different place than 2024. The Salem witch trials had taken place about 50 years before. Darwin would write his Origin of Species many decades later. At this time and place Jefferson's ideas of human rights and individual liberty were revolutionary and incredible. He abhorred the institution of slavery, this much is certain. But to cancel him because he single handedly did not fight to end a 100 year old institution all by himself is a bit unreasonable. He was a smart man and an idealist but he was also a deep pragmatist and a political animal. He sowed the seeds of the ideas and the movement for equality of man that would then be used by Abraham Lincoln, Frederick Douglas and Martin Luther King.

So in this view not only did he influence our independence from Great Britain, gave the words to the ideals that would shape our character as a nation, but also set in motion the revolutionary idea of equality of all men that would eventually lead to the abolition of slavery.

Not bad for an old white guy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a millennial who went to UVA so we obviously grew up admiring him. Right now I am reading a biography of him, Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power.

I am obsessed. He was so smart and well educated and ahead of his time in so many ways but I know he is considered controversial today since he was a rich plantation owner who also had a "relationship" with one of his slaves.

I am curious what people think of him these days.

How we think of many people of his era -- whether geniuses like Jefferson or farmers who used slave labor. They lived by the standards and mores of their times. The United States and a large part of the world have evolved since then. We should not judge those people by today's standards.

It’s wild how people don’t understand how our descendants will someday judge all of us for our destruction of the environment and off-shoring of slave labor under the guise of global capitalism. We get cheap crap we don’t need and we also get to pretend we’re not abusing the human beings who make it! Then to bring it full circle we can ship our trash to them and accuse them of being the ones destroying environment.

Lets not forget the willful turning of cheek from the massacres in Gaza.