Why a 300-400k salary doesn't feel rich

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The problem isn't that you have to little. The problem as the richer people have too much. The solution isn't for you to earn more, it's to recover the excess from them.

THIS.

Your spending is the problem. Not your HHI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Uh.

We make $450ish (more like $410 last year) and it's pretty rich.

We live in a $1m+ house.
We do not typically think about, nor do we have to, groceries or gas or coffee or takeout or summer camp.
We haven't prioritized college savings, but we could pay cash, yes, even for a $70K school (we don't want to but we'll see).
We get new cars when we want them.
If we want to renovate or something, we would just pay cash or take a HELOC or stop contributing to one of the many many investment or savings accounts we have temporarily. This would feel BAD but it is a blessing.
If we aren't going to Europe this summer it's because it's our choice and we want to prioritize cash savings. It's not because we can't.

We are lucky and relatively, rich. In the upper-middle class no worries relative to others sense. And there are MANY families richer than us at our W school.

Get some perspective if you think 400K isn't well off. Unless you have 7 kids and 3 parents in assisted living that you pay for, you should be more than OK.

This is us too. Though more like $510K last year....its the first time we've ever been over $450K. We don't really budget and all our investments are on auto-pilot so we are not even missing it. Finally had to start moving money out of two bank accounts because we were nearing the FDIC limit. That said, we don't spend much. Vacations are visiting family and staying with them. Or beach rental with three generations at OBX. Still shop mostly at TJs and Costco. Kids clothes are Old Navy, Target, or Carters. No real fancy hobbies except solo ski trips with a friend or two (and almost always using points for flights/hotels). Biggest expense is mortgage ($4K + $500 extra toward principal) and daycare ($2.3K). Oldest kid in public school.

We are in the top 98th percentile for income in the U.S., but it doesn't really feel the way I thought it would. No nice cars (2019 Subaru + hand-me-down Lexus that is fifteen years old). No country club. No fancy shopping trips. No paying for business class. I guess we could splurge on that stuff, but I'd like us to retire before age 60 and that's when my kids will be hitting college. So I need college paid up in advance.

So yeah, even if you have a high income you tend to (1) not have time for the nice stuff and (2) you're likely a worrier by nature and concerned about college + retirement + elder care. Most Americans just blow off those concerns and buy a $65K truck on credit for 60 months. *shrug*

UGGGGH. You are insufferable.

You are filthy rich. You are investing and saving thousands and thousands of dollars every month to become RICHER. And yet because you buy some clothes at Costco you are frugal? You are hoarding wealth. Which is your right. But your last sentence is not the problem with why most people are struggling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Uh.

We make $450ish (more like $410 last year) and it's pretty rich.

We live in a $1m+ house.
We do not typically think about, nor do we have to, groceries or gas or coffee or takeout or summer camp.
We haven't prioritized college savings, but we could pay cash, yes, even for a $70K school (we don't want to but we'll see).
We get new cars when we want them.
If we want to renovate or something, we would just pay cash or take a HELOC or stop contributing to one of the many many investment or savings accounts we have temporarily. This would feel BAD but it is a blessing.
If we aren't going to Europe this summer it's because it's our choice and we want to prioritize cash savings. It's not because we can't.

We are lucky and relatively, rich. In the upper-middle class no worries relative to others sense. And there are MANY families richer than us at our W school.

Get some perspective if you think 400K isn't well off. Unless you have 7 kids and 3 parents in assisted living that you pay for, you should be more than OK.

I would start prioritizing college savings now. We make $700k and cash flowing $$ colleges has NOT been fun. And, we had sizable amounts saved. The reality is that most of us feel the need to cut back way more than an increase in money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a household income of $250k in northern Virginia with three kids and we are unquestionably rich.

Only financial worry I have is how to pay for college when all three are in college at the same time in a few years.

Everything else in my life is free of financial worry.

Aww. A middle class wine mom pretending she's rich on her 250k.

Honey, let me tell you what rich is. Rich people don't worry about paying for college. Rich people pay 90k tuition checks without blinking or worrying about opportunity costs. That's rich. You're middle class.

It’s true. I think what’s happening is people are “counting their blessings” and thinking how truly advantaged they are compared to the poorest in our country.

Which is contentious to do, and of course compared to the average HHI (which is shockingly low) you are indeed well-off. But rich? Well. Like PP said, rich don’t worry about how to pay for college. I myself am luckier than many, but I know rich, and at 300k I am much closer to the poorest than to the wealthy. The rich in this country are loathsome on a whole.

Wait… at 250k you’re agreeing they’re middle class but at 300k you “know you’re rich”. So is the cut off 275k? Someone explain.

No one is rich until they have accumulated at least 10M. The law partner making $2M isn't rich if they only have a few million saved. I do my 40yr old SIL's taxes and she makes 900k and has about 200k to her name. She's more or less broke and I laugh about it every year because she thinks she's "rich". I am years younger than her make not too far off from her, have accumulated enough money for two lives, but she thinks we are probably so behind her.

Agree $10M is a good cut off point for transitioning into rich. at $10M you can have a 4% draw giving you a 400k HHI (taxed at capital gains!) without working, plus you have access to all that capital if you want to, which is different from a working 400k HHI whose main capital is 2M in retirement savings plus 500k in equity. And of course it goes up greatly from there.

If your net worth is below $10M you're just in the upper parts of the upper middle classes.

Not perfect but as good a rule of thumb as any.

This is just a random, arbitrary line you have drawn in the sand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Uh.

We make $450ish (more like $410 last year) and it's pretty rich.

We live in a $1m+ house.
We do not typically think about, nor do we have to, groceries or gas or coffee or takeout or summer camp.
We haven't prioritized college savings, but we could pay cash, yes, even for a $70K school (we don't want to but we'll see).
We get new cars when we want them.
If we want to renovate or something, we would just pay cash or take a HELOC or stop contributing to one of the many many investment or savings accounts we have temporarily. This would feel BAD but it is a blessing.
If we aren't going to Europe this summer it's because it's our choice and we want to prioritize cash savings. It's not because we can't.

We are lucky and relatively, rich. In the upper-middle class no worries relative to others sense. And there are MANY families richer than us at our W school.

Get some perspective if you think 400K isn't well off. Unless you have 7 kids and 3 parents in assisted living that you pay for, you should be more than OK.

This is us too. Though more like $510K last year....its the first time we've ever been over $450K. We don't really budget and all our investments are on auto-pilot so we are not even missing it. Finally had to start moving money out of two bank accounts because we were nearing the FDIC limit. That said, we don't spend much. Vacations are visiting family and staying with them. Or beach rental with three generations at OBX. Still shop mostly at TJs and Costco. Kids clothes are Old Navy, Target, or Carters. No real fancy hobbies except solo ski trips with a friend or two (and almost always using points for flights/hotels). Biggest expense is mortgage ($4K + $500 extra toward principal) and daycare ($2.3K). Oldest kid in public school.

We are in the top 98th percentile for income in the U.S., but it doesn't really feel the way I thought it would. No nice cars (2019 Subaru + hand-me-down Lexus that is fifteen years old). No country club. No fancy shopping trips. No paying for business class. I guess we could splurge on that stuff, but I'd like us to retire before age 60 and that's when my kids will be hitting college. So I need college paid up in advance.

So yeah, even if you have a high income you tend to (1) not have time for the nice stuff and (2) you're likely a worrier by nature and concerned about college + retirement + elder care. Most Americans just blow off those concerns and buy a $65K truck on credit for 60 months. *shrug*

UGGGGH. You are insufferable.

You are filthy rich. You are investing and saving thousands and thousands of dollars every month to become RICHER. And yet because you buy some clothes at Costco you are frugal? You are hoarding wealth. Which is your right. But your last sentence is not the problem with why most people are struggling.

PP here: I'm not filthy rich; I'm a working stiff who has to show up for a job everyday. Someone else is buying our time. The "filthy rich" control their schedules, whereas my schedule is dictated to me. When you have to document a leave request for vacation, there's no way in hell you're "filthy rich."

Yes, we are accumulating assets. But that's because we will have to pay full freight for college and I would like us to retire while still physically healthy and active instead at 65+. I'm buying time with my assets.....hopefully I don't kick the bucket before then.

You know who is filthy rich? Someone with a trust that contains a 7- or 8-figure corpus that distributes 6-figure income every year. "Rich" is having assets that free up your time. I don't have those assets (yet). Maybe one day, by my late 50s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a household income of $250k in northern Virginia with three kids and we are unquestionably rich.

Only financial worry I have is how to pay for college when all three are in college at the same time in a few years.

Everything else in my life is free of financial worry.

Aww. A middle class wine mom pretending she's rich on her 250k.

Honey, let me tell you what rich is. Rich people don't worry about paying for college. Rich people pay 90k tuition checks without blinking or worrying about opportunity costs. That's rich. You're middle class.

Wow, what a snotty response.

It was kinda snotty, but she's not wrong.

It's impossible to reconcile how someone can think of themselves as "unquestionably rich" while at the same time worrying how to pay for college.

It’s all relative. Compared to most people on the world, anyone living in a SFH in the DMV is “rich”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a household income of $250k in northern Virginia with three kids and we are unquestionably rich.

Only financial worry I have is how to pay for college when all three are in college at the same time in a few years.

Everything else in my life is free of financial worry.

Aww. A middle class wine mom pretending she's rich on her 250k.

Honey, let me tell you what rich is. Rich people don't worry about paying for college. Rich people pay 90k tuition checks without blinking or worrying about opportunity costs. That's rich. You're middle class.

It’s true. I think what’s happening is people are “counting their blessings” and thinking how truly advantaged they are compared to the poorest in our country.

Which is contentious to do, and of course compared to the average HHI (which is shockingly low) you are indeed well-off. But rich? Well. Like PP said, rich don’t worry about how to pay for college. I myself am luckier than many, but I know rich, and at 300k I am much closer to the poorest than to the wealthy. The rich in this country are loathsome on a whole.

Wait… at 250k you’re agreeing they’re middle class but at 300k you “know you’re rich”. So is the cut off 275k? Someone explain.

No one is rich until they have accumulated at least 10M. The law partner making $2M isn't rich if they only have a few million saved. I do my 40yr old SIL's taxes and she makes 900k and has about 200k to her name. She's more or less broke and I laugh about it every year because she thinks she's "rich". I am years younger than her make not too far off from her, have accumulated enough money for two lives, but she thinks we are probably so behind her.

Agree $10M is a good cut off point for transitioning into rich. at $10M you can have a 4% draw giving you a 400k HHI (taxed at capital gains!) without working, plus you have access to all that capital if you want to, which is different from a working 400k HHI whose main capital is 2M in retirement savings plus 500k in equity. And of course it goes up greatly from there.

If your net worth is below $10M you're just in the upper parts of the upper middle classes.

Not perfect but as good a rule of thumb as any.

This is just a random, arbitrary line you have drawn in the sand.

DP here:
It's not that far from the truth. Maybe $7m in invested assets? The entire point is that being "rich" means having money/assets work for you in order to free up your time while still enjoying a high standard of living. You probably need a corpus of $7m+ in order to kick off a sizable amount of annual income to maintain an UMC lifestyle. $10M is the number you want in order to maintain an UMC lifestyle in NYC, SF, Palm Beach or other VHCOL locales.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get what OP is saying. We make more than OP and have a nice net worth. We live in an expensive house that carries a high property tax burden. Affording our house is no problem, but I acknowledge that a $25K tax bill on the house every year is not insignificant. We own our cars outright and don't carry debt. Technically we are in the top 1% of earners, but we consider ourselves 'working rich', meaning if the gravy train comes to a halt tomorrow we would be pressed to make some lifestyle decisions if the cashflow changes. My family enjoys life, but we know money is not to be taken for granted. Yes, we have savings, retirement accounts, college funded, as well as taking very nice vacations, we can eat out whenever we want, buy any groceries we want, attend any ticketed events/activities we want, wear any clothes we want, but with inflation and rising costs, I stop and ask if these things are worth the inflated costs. $100 today isn't what it was 5 or 10 years ago. DMV is not a cheap area.

The taxes on your big fancy house doesn’t exclude you from being rich. Buy a smaller house with a lower tax burden if you can’t afford it. Seems like money management 101

Your mindset shrieks to the whole world you are a poormo. You don't understand what wealth really is. Babbling about money management 101 is meaningless when yur argument equally applies to someone making 50k a year and telling them to live on a budget. Hint, the rich really don't need to have budgets.

More bs striving. How old are you?

The concept that the rich don’t have budgets and somehow aspiring to be that rich because that really means something is possibly the most nouveau riche mindset presented on this absurd thread.

You can be rich and spend your money unwisely and then you’re not rich anymore.

Another poormo Yep, rich can be stupid and lose all their money. It happens. Most don't. Nonetheless, even their budget is quite different from what a budget means to you and even me. You're poor so you don't understand. You think anyone living in a 1M split crapshack in Arlington is rich.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a household income of $250k in northern Virginia with three kids and we are unquestionably rich.

Only financial worry I have is how to pay for college when all three are in college at the same time in a few years.

Everything else in my life is free of financial worry.

Aww. A middle class wine mom pretending she's rich on her 250k.

Honey, let me tell you what rich is. Rich people don't worry about paying for college. Rich people pay 90k tuition checks without blinking or worrying about opportunity costs. That's rich. You're middle class.

It’s true. I think what’s happening is people are “counting their blessings” and thinking how truly advantaged they are compared to the poorest in our country.

Which is contentious to do, and of course compared to the average HHI (which is shockingly low) you are indeed well-off. But rich? Well. Like PP said, rich don’t worry about how to pay for college. I myself am luckier than many, but I know rich, and at 300k I am much closer to the poorest than to the wealthy. The rich in this country are loathsome on a whole.

Wait… at 250k you’re agreeing they’re middle class but at 300k you “know you’re rich”. So is the cut off 275k? Someone explain.

No one is rich until they have accumulated at least 10M. The law partner making $2M isn't rich if they only have a few million saved. I do my 40yr old SIL's taxes and she makes 900k and has about 200k to her name. She's more or less broke and I laugh about it every year because she thinks she's "rich". I am years younger than her make not too far off from her, have accumulated enough money for two lives, but she thinks we are probably so behind her.

Agree $10M is a good cut off point for transitioning into rich. at $10M you can have a 4% draw giving you a 400k HHI (taxed at capital gains!) without working, plus you have access to all that capital if you want to, which is different from a working 400k HHI whose main capital is 2M in retirement savings plus 500k in equity. And of course it goes up greatly from there.

If your net worth is below $10M you're just in the upper parts of the upper middle classes.

Not perfect but as good a rule of thumb as any.

This is just a random, arbitrary line you have drawn in the sand.

DP here:
It's not that far from the truth. Maybe $7m in invested assets? The entire point is that being "rich" means having money/assets work for you in order to free up your time while still enjoying a high standard of living. You probably need a corpus of $7m+ in order to kick off a sizable amount of annual income to maintain an UMC lifestyle. $10M is the number you want in order to maintain an UMC lifestyle in NYC, SF, Palm Beach or other VHCOL locales.

This is just a random baseline you have chosen as desirable. It’s still random, just because two of you agree doesn’t make it less arbitrary.

[Anonymous]

Um, no, OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get what OP is saying. We make more than OP and have a nice net worth. We live in an expensive house that carries a high property tax burden. Affording our house is no problem, but I acknowledge that a $25K tax bill on the house every year is not insignificant. We own our cars outright and don't carry debt. Technically we are in the top 1% of earners, but we consider ourselves 'working rich', meaning if the gravy train comes to a halt tomorrow we would be pressed to make some lifestyle decisions if the cashflow changes. My family enjoys life, but we know money is not to be taken for granted. Yes, we have savings, retirement accounts, college funded, as well as taking very nice vacations, we can eat out whenever we want, buy any groceries we want, attend any ticketed events/activities we want, wear any clothes we want, but with inflation and rising costs, I stop and ask if these things are worth the inflated costs. $100 today isn't what it was 5 or 10 years ago. DMV is not a cheap area.

The taxes on your big fancy house doesn’t exclude you from being rich. Buy a smaller house with a lower tax burden if you can’t afford it. Seems like money management 101

Your mindset shrieks to the whole world you are a poormo. You don't understand what wealth really is. Babbling about money management 101 is meaningless when yur argument equally applies to someone making 50k a year and telling them to live on a budget. Hint, the rich really don't need to have budgets.

More bs striving. How old are you?

The concept that the rich don’t have budgets and somehow aspiring to be that rich because that really means something is possibly the most nouveau riche mindset presented on this absurd thread.

You can be rich and spend your money unwisely and then you’re not rich anymore.

No Rich is when you have so much money that if you spend it unwisely it doesn’t impact you. That’s rich. Stop acting like professional UMC people are part of the “rich” class….we are just pegs in the system like everyone else

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I get what OP is saying. We make more than OP and have a nice net worth. We live in an expensive house that carries a high property tax burden. Affording our house is no problem, but I acknowledge that a $25K tax bill on the house every year is not insignificant. We own our cars outright and don't carry debt. Technically we are in the top 1% of earners, but we consider ourselves 'working rich', meaning if the gravy train comes to a halt tomorrow we would be pressed to make some lifestyle decisions if the cashflow changes. My family enjoys life, but we know money is not to be taken for granted. Yes, we have savings, retirement accounts, college funded, as well as taking very nice vacations, we can eat out whenever we want, buy any groceries we want, attend any ticketed events/activities we want, wear any clothes we want, but with inflation and rising costs, I stop and ask if these things are worth the inflated costs. $100 today isn't what it was 5 or 10 years ago. DMV is not a cheap area.

The taxes on your big fancy house doesn’t exclude you from being rich. Buy a smaller house with a lower tax burden if you can’t afford it. Seems like money management 101

Your mindset shrieks to the whole world you are a poormo. You don't understand what wealth really is. Babbling about money management 101 is meaningless when yur argument equally applies to someone making 50k a year and telling them to live on a budget. Hint, the rich really don't need to have budgets.

More bs striving. How old are you?

The concept that the rich don’t have budgets and somehow aspiring to be that rich because that really means something is possibly the most nouveau riche mindset presented on this absurd thread.

You can be rich and spend your money unwisely and then you’re not rich anymore.

No Rich is when you have so much money that if you spend it unwisely it doesn’t impact you. That’s rich. Stop acting like professional UMC people are part of the “rich” class….we are just pegs in the system like everyone else

You were raised poor and it’s showing. Money comes and money goes, people who stay rich know this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a household income of $250k in northern Virginia with three kids and we are unquestionably rich.

Only financial worry I have is how to pay for college when all three are in college at the same time in a few years.

Everything else in my life is free of financial worry.

Aww. A middle class wine mom pretending she's rich on her 250k.

Honey, let me tell you what rich is. Rich people don't worry about paying for college. Rich people pay 90k tuition checks without blinking or worrying about opportunity costs. That's rich. You're middle class.

It’s true. I think what’s happening is people are “counting their blessings” and thinking how truly advantaged they are compared to the poorest in our country.

Which is contentious to do, and of course compared to the average HHI (which is shockingly low) you are indeed well-off. But rich? Well. Like PP said, rich don’t worry about how to pay for college. I myself am luckier than many, but I know rich, and at 300k I am much closer to the poorest than to the wealthy. The rich in this country are loathsome on a whole.

Wait… at 250k you’re agreeing they’re middle class but at 300k you “know you’re rich”. So is the cut off 275k? Someone explain.

No one is rich until they have accumulated at least 10M. The law partner making $2M isn't rich if they only have a few million saved. I do my 40yr old SIL's taxes and she makes 900k and has about 200k to her name. She's more or less broke and I laugh about it every year because she thinks she's "rich". I am years younger than her make not too far off from her, have accumulated enough money for two lives, but she thinks we are probably so behind her.

Agree $10M is a good cut off point for transitioning into rich. at $10M you can have a 4% draw giving you a 400k HHI (taxed at capital gains!) without working, plus you have access to all that capital if you want to, which is different from a working 400k HHI whose main capital is 2M in retirement savings plus 500k in equity. And of course it goes up greatly from there.

If your net worth is below $10M you're just in the upper parts of the upper middle classes.

Not perfect but as good a rule of thumb as any.

This is just a random, arbitrary line you have drawn in the sand.

DP here:
It's not that far from the truth. Maybe $7m in invested assets? The entire point is that being "rich" means having money/assets work for you in order to free up your time while still enjoying a high standard of living. You probably need a corpus of $7m+ in order to kick off a sizable amount of annual income to maintain an UMC lifestyle. $10M is the number you want in order to maintain an UMC lifestyle in NYC, SF, Palm Beach or other VHCOL locales.

Wait, now 10M is only UMC.

You guys have completely lost grasp of reality in your greed and trying to keep up with the Jones’. Sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Uh.

We make $450ish (more like $410 last year) and it's pretty rich.

We live in a $1m+ house.
We do not typically think about, nor do we have to, groceries or gas or coffee or takeout or summer camp.
We haven't prioritized college savings, but we could pay cash, yes, even for a $70K school (we don't want to but we'll see).
We get new cars when we want them.
If we want to renovate or something, we would just pay cash or take a HELOC or stop contributing to one of the many many investment or savings accounts we have temporarily. This would feel BAD but it is a blessing.
If we aren't going to Europe this summer it's because it's our choice and we want to prioritize cash savings. It's not because we can't.

We are lucky and relatively, rich. In the upper-middle class no worries relative to others sense. And there are MANY families richer than us at our W school.

Get some perspective if you think 400K isn't well off. Unless you have 7 kids and 3 parents in assisted living that you pay for, you should be more than OK.

This is like reading about one of those families who lost their everything in 2008 and can’t stop telling everyone to save and live a smaller but more fulfilling life after the humbling. This income range is not rich and this type of exaggeration is both kind of shameful and also sad because of its astounding ignorance.

That income range is Top 1-2%. That is rich.
It's all about lifestyle choices. You can choose to save first and then pick your luxury choices. Or you can choose to life life up and spend everything and then complain "how can I possibly save" when you drive a $60K+ new vehicle, kids have the latest iPhone and Apple Watch and their own $50K car, you and the kids all stop at starbux 2 times per day and eat out 5 times per week and take 3+ vacations, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am sympathetic to OP. I also really don't care about the people shrieking at me to get some perspective. Cost of living has gone up greatly in the last five years, irregardless of whatever dueling armchair economists want to pretend. A 200k salary was impressive in 2015. Today it's still a nice salary but doesn't buy you what it did back then. I make a salary that back in 2015 I would have thought would mean I'd finally achieved success! But in reality it just means a comfortable life and some savings but not living lavishly by any measure. Housing is much more expensive and has outpaced inflation/wage gains, as has education. Housing and education are the two main budget expenditures for the professional classes.

Regarding the comparison to 50 years ago, both housing and education were much cheaper, even when adjusting for inflation. It now takes a dual income household to provide for the same quality of life that a single earner could with a homemaker wife.

50 years ago, most people lived in a 1500sq ft 3 bedroom 1 bath home. It was a luxury to have a 2nd full bath. You had one TV and if lucky it was color and hooked up to cable. Kids played in the neighborhood, they didn't do music lessons, tennis lessons, dance, horseback riding, surfing, travel lacrosse, etc. You joined 4H, school clubs that cost next to nothing or you just socialized in the neighborhood.
It was a treat to "eat out" or get takeout---not something you did 5+ times per week.