$80K+ tuition

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All state schools are not the same, and I don’t mean admit rates or prestige. A flagship or similar will have a tier of top students, as bright as at any selective college. You just won’t have that cohort handed to you unless you are in an honors college or something like that.
State schools differ in the structure of lower lever science classes and this is the part that can make a difference. In some cases, you are largely on your own, teaching yourself. Once you get to the higher level classes you may have smaller seminars or research opportunities as an undergrad in R1 labs. Some state colleges have smaller more engaging intro level classes. Research this if it matters to you.

Both private and state schools have students wind up in med school. Check the competition level among students IF this matters to your kid. It varies significantly school to school.

Some students prefer to go and be anonymous except for what really matters to them ( specific profs they work with) some want to be seen and feel like they are seen and heard more.

Check the guidance reputation for health professional admissions .

Some “second tier” (hate these expressions) LACs are strong with this.

Honors Colleges at many large public institutions are not really a cohort. It is not as though there is an Engineering or CS Honors College, a Finance Honors College, etc. It is a bunch of students across 150+ majors that maybe have their own dorm. Sure, you may have a special general seminar or something, but for the most part you are taking classes where probably 95%+ of the class is not in the Honors college.

I think the Honors College gets thrown around and misunderstood to imply that all the Engineering Honors College students take their own classes, Business Honors College students take their own classes, etc. I am not aware of any that work that way.

The main advantages are usually you get Merit $$s, you get priority for selecting classes which is a big perk at large state universities, you can opt for an Honors dorm (which you may or may not want to do). Those perks are worth the Honors College.

But at some smaller colleges, you DO take classes not offered to non-honors college students. And you have to do a thesis project to grad from the college. I don't have any particular experience (does anyone here) but that seems like it could be useful for a higher academic experience at a lower ranked college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So the takeaway is if you can't get into a top 20, 30 school. Or more relevant to the topic, can't PAY for that type of school, you're basically screwed out of top grad schools and relegated to the mid-tier or low castes of society? LOL

Viva America!

Not at all. See my posts. I worked a long time in admissions for a (lower) T10 law school. We loved strong GPA’s in good majors from state schools. We wanted socioeconomic diversity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the takeaway is if you can't get into a top 20, 30 school. Or more relevant to the topic, can't PAY for that type of school, you're basically screwed out of top grad schools and relegated to the mid-tier or low castes of society? LOL

Viva America!

Not at all. See my posts. I worked a long time in admissions for a (lower) T10 law school. We loved strong GPA’s in good majors from state schools. We wanted socioeconomic diversity.

See the quote below for a group tracking the top feeder schools for law school. Understand the schools they reference are the Top 30 schools...which includes the University of Michigan, UVA, and Berkeley (the only State schools listed).

Again, one way to look at is that 43% of law school students at the Top law schools did not attend the Top 30 undergrads. Another way, is that 57% of all law school students at Top law schools came from only 30 schools... 1% of all 4-year colleges in the United States produced 57% of all law school students.

Also, the #1 feeder to each Top 10 law school was that very same undergraduate institution. I.e., the #1 feeder to UVA law school is UVA, the #1 feeder to Northwestern Law School is Northwestern, etc.

Does institutional selectivity matter?
When applying to law school, yes, it appears that institutional selectivity does in fact play a role. In our sample, of the students who went on to enroll at America’s best JD programs, approximately 57% graduated from colleges categorized as “Most Selective” or “Extremely Selective.” However, 21% of elite law school students in our sample did graduate from schools indicated as less selective or non-selective, suggesting that attendance at a highly selective undergraduate college or university isn’t a prerequisite to earning a top-flight JD. Click here to see how we group colleges by selectivity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our 2 kids are at SLACs that are 82-84k/yr and we wouldn’t change a thing. Saved and sacrificed and funded 529s so they could have the same incredible education we had. IYKYK. If you don’t, you will surely think it’s not worth it.

This is not relevant to OP’s post, though. OP is talking about an academically rigorous T20 national university as opposed to a snobby liberal arts college whose only existence is to provide a soft landing for wealthy and otherwise incapable and unintelligent high school students. It’s really apples and oranges.

Quite frankly, SLACs charge what they do, because they’re targeting students that are unable to get accepted into T20 research institutions yet come from families that are desperate to avoid the stigma of having a child that couldn’t get a bachelor’s degree. Financial privilege at its finest.

Says who? Is there any data on this statement about SLACs? I’ve never heard this before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it matters what your financial situation is. We are in our 50s with over $6M in invested assets in addition to the college fund for our oldest with $400k set aside. We want her to go somewhere she feels good about and cost isn't really the primary consideration. If cost is a consideration, then it's a conversation with your kid and partner as to how to make the decision. I don't think it's as easy as saying it's worth it or not based on the college ranking. Ultimately, we know from the studies that college is what you make of it. But if your kid is happy there, isn't that worth something?

I think this is correct. Schools charging 80k are for people who can easily pay and people who the school will massively subsidize. The people in between are not the school's target customer.

Yet people on college boards will deny up and down that there is a problem with schools that only have top 5 or top 10% and then those who qualify for financial aid. The working upper middle class is largely absent at schools like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Well first, the time to consider finances should have been before your kid applied to schools. They should have know "here's how much we can afford to pay for college total" So if you apply to schools that cost more and don't get merit (assuming FA is not something you will be getting), then you cannot attend. So lets find a list that is 90%+ schools we can afford for you to attend. Then throw in 1-2 financial reaches that might give enough merit, but know if you don't get it you cannot attend.

And no, it is not worth going into major debt. It isn't even for an Ivy. You mention "pre grad program" so you need to save the money so you can help pay for grad school, not have your kid be $200-300K in debt between undergrad and grad school.

When did parents start paying for grad school? Is this an upper class convention?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not for a pre-professional program. Save the money for MCAT/LSAT training and tell your kid to stand out on campus at the state U.

What if the state U is, say, one with an 80% admission rate. So ranked not highly at all? The in between option(s) was not one that DC liked (you know, like a 30-50% admit).

Nope...don't go into debt.

The issue is it's a bit too late now to fix the real problem, which is WHY THE HELL did you let your kid apply to A) a school you cannot afford, B) a school they don't really like and C) a school "not highly ranked at all that you really don't think is good for your kid"? The time to fix this is when creating a list of colleges to apply to. A Target/safety is NOT a good choice if your kid doesn't really want to attend. But you could have found many good targets and Safeties that your kid would want to attend and are affordable.

IMO, State U will be fine, join the honors program. It should be easier to maintain a very high GPA at a school like that versus a T20. And you need that for Med school/law school/dental school

Data about how it is easier to maintain a higher GPA at state school vs top 20? I’ve read the opposite - state schools are full of hard working strivers from middle and upper middle class families; the top 20 provide easier As as part of the “customer service” ethos of top privates. Thoughts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not for a pre-professional program. Save the money for MCAT/LSAT training and tell your kid to stand out on campus at the state U.

What if the state U is, say, one with an 80% admission rate. So ranked not highly at all? The in between option(s) was not one that DC liked (you know, like a 30-50% admit).

You can’t make that comparison. The mission of the State U is to provide academic opportunities to citizens of the state. That’s reflected in the admissions numbers. Plenty of students thrive at state schools and go on to top graduate and professional programs, but they need to be proactive as undergraduates to seek out mentors, research opportunities, internships, etc. Nobody holds your hand at a big state school.

Exactly. This is another reason why it is easier to get top grades at a top 20 private vs a state flagship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the takeaway is if you can't get into a top 20, 30 school. Or more relevant to the topic, can't PAY for that type of school, you're basically screwed out of top grad schools and relegated to the mid-tier or low castes of society? LOL

Viva America!

Not at all. See my posts. I worked a long time in admissions for a (lower) T10 law school. We loved strong GPA’s in good majors from state schools. We wanted socioeconomic diversity.

See the quote below for a group tracking the top feeder schools for law school. Understand the schools they reference are the Top 30 schools...which includes the University of Michigan, UVA, and Berkeley (the only State schools listed).

Again, one way to look at is that 43% of law school students at the Top law schools did not attend the Top 30 undergrads. Another way, is that 57% of all law school students at Top law schools came from only 30 schools... 1% of all 4-year colleges in the United States produced 57% of all law school students.

Also, the #1 feeder to each Top 10 law school was that very same undergraduate institution. I.e., the #1 feeder to UVA law school is UVA, the #1 feeder to Northwestern Law School is Northwestern, etc.

Does institutional selectivity matter?
When applying to law school, yes, it appears that institutional selectivity does in fact play a role. In our sample, of the students who went on to enroll at America’s best JD programs, approximately 57% graduated from colleges categorized as “Most Selective” or “Extremely Selective.” However, 21% of elite law school students in our sample did graduate from schools indicated as less selective or non-selective, suggesting that attendance at a highly selective undergraduate college or university isn’t a prerequisite to earning a top-flight JD. Click here to see how we group colleges by selectivity.

A lot of it is self selection. Rich kids from private schools are more likely to apply to expensive grad programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All state schools are not the same, and I don’t mean admit rates or prestige. A flagship or similar will have a tier of top students, as bright as at any selective college. You just won’t have that cohort handed to you unless you are in an honors college or something like that.
State schools differ in the structure of lower lever science classes and this is the part that can make a difference. In some cases, you are largely on your own, teaching yourself. Once you get to the higher level classes you may have smaller seminars or research opportunities as an undergrad in R1 labs. Some state colleges have smaller more engaging intro level classes. Research this if it matters to you.

Both private and state schools have students wind up in med school. Check the competition level among students IF this matters to your kid. It varies significantly school to school.

Some students prefer to go and be anonymous except for what really matters to them ( specific profs they work with) some want to be seen and feel like they are seen and heard more.

Check the guidance reputation for health professional admissions .

Some “second tier” (hate these expressions) LACs are strong with this.

Honors Colleges at many large public institutions are not really a cohort. It is not as though there is an Engineering or CS Honors College, a Finance Honors College, etc. It is a bunch of students across 150+ majors that maybe have their own dorm. Sure, you may have a special general seminar or something, but for the most part you are taking classes where probably 95%+ of the class is not in the Honors college.

I think the Honors College gets thrown around and misunderstood to imply that all the Engineering Honors College students take their own classes, Business Honors College students take their own classes, etc. I am not aware of any that work that way.

The main advantages are usually you get Merit $$s, you get priority for selecting classes which is a big perk at large state universities, you can opt for an Honors dorm (which you may or may not want to do). Those perks are worth the Honors College.

But at some smaller colleges, you DO take classes not offered to non-honors college students. And you have to do a thesis project to grad from the college. I don't have any particular experience (does anyone here) but that seems like it could be useful for a higher academic experience at a lower ranked college.

At the honor college that I'm most familiar with the big perks are early class registration and guaranteed housing. The classes are a necessary evil for most kids and most don't do the thesis because there really is no difference between an honors degree and a non-honors degree

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to a top 10 school and 25 years later people still murmur with respect when I name it. .

In your dreams, maybe.

- Big 10 grad

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So the takeaway is if you can't get into a top 20, 30 school. Or more relevant to the topic, can't PAY for that type of school, you're basically screwed out of top grad schools and relegated to the mid-tier or low castes of society? LOL

Viva America!

Not at all. See my posts. I worked a long time in admissions for a (lower) T10 law school. We loved strong GPA’s in good majors from state schools. We wanted socioeconomic diversity.

See the quote below for a group tracking the top feeder schools for law school. Understand the schools they reference are the Top 30 schools...which includes the University of Michigan, UVA, and Berkeley (the only State schools listed).

Again, one way to look at is that 43% of law school students at the Top law schools did not attend the Top 30 undergrads. Another way, is that 57% of all law school students at Top law schools came from only 30 schools... 1% of all 4-year colleges in the United States produced 57% of all law school students.

Also, the #1 feeder to each Top 10 law school was that very same undergraduate institution. I.e., the #1 feeder to UVA law school is UVA, the #1 feeder to Northwestern Law School is Northwestern, etc.

Does institutional selectivity matter?
When applying to law school, yes, it appears that institutional selectivity does in fact play a role. In our sample, of the students who went on to enroll at America’s best JD programs, approximately 57% graduated from colleges categorized as “Most Selective” or “Extremely Selective.” However, 21% of elite law school students in our sample did graduate from schools indicated as less selective or non-selective, suggesting that attendance at a highly selective undergraduate college or university isn’t a prerequisite to earning a top-flight JD. Click here to see how we group colleges by selectivity.

Firstly, kids attending Top30-40 schools are almost 50-60% full pay students. So exactly the students who can afford to go onto law school (med school and the like). However, 43% did NOT attend the Top 40 schools. Those kids are the high stats kids (or high stats in college at least) who worked their asses off to get to law school. Plenty of kids do it from Non-T40 schools. But it's not hard to understand that the kids at T30-40 school are also more likely the ones to end up at Top law schools, even if they went to a school ranked #100....it's about their upbringing, their family friends/environment and money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well first, the time to consider finances should have been before your kid applied to schools. They should have know "here's how much we can afford to pay for college total" So if you apply to schools that cost more and don't get merit (assuming FA is not something you will be getting), then you cannot attend. So lets find a list that is 90%+ schools we can afford for you to attend. Then throw in 1-2 financial reaches that might give enough merit, but know if you don't get it you cannot attend.

And no, it is not worth going into major debt. It isn't even for an Ivy. You mention "pre grad program" so you need to save the money so you can help pay for grad school, not have your kid be $200-300K in debt between undergrad and grad school.

When did parents start paying for grad school? Is this an upper class convention?

Many parents try to assist with law/medical/expensive graduate school if they can. And many will smartly say, we have 400K for your education, why not use only $150-200 on undergrad and save the rest for grad school.

So yes, many parents do pay for graduate school. I know many who help their PHD candidates with living expenses, since the tuition/school expenses are covered for most PHD programs

[Anonymous]

I didn’t “pay” for my college but had to serve in the military for 8 years (ended up serving for over 10 years) and it was definitely worth it despite going into harm’s way during many deployments. Got to fly some high performance aircraft and now I fly for AA as a 777 pilot working about 2 weeks a month. College is what you make of it but paying $80K tuition per year out of pocket is stupid. 5 years after you graduate no one cares where you went to school, it’s all about what have you done lately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well first, the time to consider finances should have been before your kid applied to schools. They should have know "here's how much we can afford to pay for college total" So if you apply to schools that cost more and don't get merit (assuming FA is not something you will be getting), then you cannot attend. So lets find a list that is 90%+ schools we can afford for you to attend. Then throw in 1-2 financial reaches that might give enough merit, but know if you don't get it you cannot attend.

And no, it is not worth going into major debt. It isn't even for an Ivy. You mention "pre grad program" so you need to save the money so you can help pay for grad school, not have your kid be $200-300K in debt between undergrad and grad school.

When did parents start paying for grad school? Is this an upper class convention?

Many parents try to assist with law/medical/expensive graduate school if they can. And many will smartly say, we have 400K for your education, why not use only $150-200 on undergrad and save the rest for grad school.

So yes, many parents do pay for graduate school. I know many who help their PHD candidates with living expenses, since the tuition/school expenses are covered for most PHD programs

Most grad school is a waste and bad investment…including med school. I’ve told my kids we may help…but only if they work for several years after undergrad and really show they want to do it.