A difficult truth to accept: Liberal democracy is not favored around the world

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The problem with liberal democracy is that it’s not at all liberal and is hostile to democracy when democracy gets in the way. For instance, look at how gay marriage became legal in the U.S. The vast majority of Americans were against gay marriage and the vast majority of states had legislated against it. Was the gay lobby’s imposition of gay marriage on the populace through a lawsuit remotely democratic? Of course not. Look also at how the Biden administration is now imposing transgenderism on other countries by conditioning economic aid on acceptance of male crossdressers’ “rights.” Is that liberal? Is that democracy? “Liberal democracy” is an Orwellian code word for the cultural preferences of a wealthy, well-connected, white, Western European/American cabal.

This anti-gay anti-tran diatribe is not working. Move on to a new issue already. If you are gay it is fine. No one cares. If you are just trying to use this non issue to sway opinions, forget it.

Again...no one cares if people are gay or trans. People have always been and will always be.

Sorry, no matter how you repeat it, no one is falling for the lie that “trans” people have always existed. Certainly, tiny numbers of people who want to believe they are the opposite sex have always existed, but the idea that this desire actually makes them the opposite sex is a recent fraud and an unconvincing one at that. But how liberal and postmodern of you to keep trying anyway.

No matter how hard you try to make this a big issue, it is failing. The amount of energy, time, and money that has been spent trying to rile people up about trans folks and gay folks is impressive in its futility.

No one is changing governmental structures or switching countries over this non issue. But keep wasting your time on it if that floats your boat.

The post we are both responding to explained quite well that the ramming of gay marriage and transsexual ideology down everyone’s throats are examples of how “liberal” democracy is neither liberal nor democratic. Your blathering about switching countries over cross-dressing men and sodomites is off topic.

This democracy has chosen to protect the rights of all of our gay friends, neighbors, family, co workers, etc. You may want to stomp on all the gay folks in your life but you are in the significant minority. The majority is live and let live.

And this democracy also chose to smash women's rights back 50 years. But the OP seemed to argue that that will be accepted in exchange for security, or better jobs or some nonsense. Quite the opposite is happening and the people are fighting back hard against this change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with liberal democracy is that it’s not at all liberal and is hostile to democracy when democracy gets in the way. For instance, look at how gay marriage became legal in the U.S. The vast majority of Americans were against gay marriage and the vast majority of states had legislated against it. Was the gay lobby’s imposition of gay marriage on the populace through a lawsuit remotely democratic? Of course not. Look also at how the Biden administration is now imposing transgenderism on other countries by conditioning economic aid on acceptance of male crossdressers’ “rights.” Is that liberal? Is that democracy? “Liberal democracy” is an Orwellian code word for the cultural preferences of a wealthy, well-connected, white, Western European/American cabal.

This anti-gay anti-tran diatribe is not working. Move on to a new issue already. If you are gay it is fine. No one cares. If you are just trying to use this non issue to sway opinions, forget it.

Again...no one cares if people are gay or trans. People have always been and will always be.

Sorry, no matter how you repeat it, no one is falling for the lie that “trans” people have always existed. Certainly, tiny numbers of people who want to believe they are the opposite sex have always existed, but the idea that this desire actually makes them the opposite sex is a recent fraud and an unconvincing one at that. But how liberal and postmodern of you to keep trying anyway.

NP. You really mean that despite historical evidence, there will be those who reject the fact that trans people have always existed. There are historical primary documents of trans people in almost every culture throughout history. The postmodern academics only recently made this an area of study because when you get a PhD you must make an original contribution to the field. We now have new areas of interest because other areas have been studied to death.

Read this again and slowly this time: “Certainly, tiny numbers of people who want to believe they are the opposite sex have always existed, but the idea that this desire actually makes them the opposite sex is a recent fraud and an unconvincing one at that.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with liberal democracy is that it’s not at all liberal and is hostile to democracy when democracy gets in the way. For instance, look at how gay marriage became legal in the U.S. The vast majority of Americans were against gay marriage and the vast majority of states had legislated against it. Was the gay lobby’s imposition of gay marriage on the populace through a lawsuit remotely democratic? Of course not. Look also at how the Biden administration is now imposing transgenderism on other countries by conditioning economic aid on acceptance of male crossdressers’ “rights.” Is that liberal? Is that democracy? “Liberal democracy” is an Orwellian code word for the cultural preferences of a wealthy, well-connected, white, Western European/American cabal.

This anti-gay anti-tran diatribe is not working. Move on to a new issue already. If you are gay it is fine. No one cares. If you are just trying to use this non issue to sway opinions, forget it.

Again...no one cares if people are gay or trans. People have always been and will always be.

Sorry, no matter how you repeat it, no one is falling for the lie that “trans” people have always existed. Certainly, tiny numbers of people who want to believe they are the opposite sex have always existed, but the idea that this desire actually makes them the opposite sex is a recent fraud and an unconvincing one at that. But how liberal and postmodern of you to keep trying anyway.

NP. You really mean that despite historical evidence, there will be those who reject the fact that trans people have always existed. There are historical primary documents of trans people in almost every culture throughout history. The postmodern academics only recently made this an area of study because when you get a PhD you must make an original contribution to the field. We now have new areas of interest because other areas have been studied to death.

Read this again and slowly this time: “Certainly, tiny numbers of people who want to believe they are the opposite sex have always existed, but the idea that this desire actually makes them the opposite sex is a recent fraud and an unconvincing one at that.”

Even tinier numbers of people are agitated about this issue to the point that they will advocate for an authoritarian regime to take over this country to abuse trans people. That is simply not going to happen with good reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with liberal democracy is that it’s not at all liberal and is hostile to democracy when democracy gets in the way. For instance, look at how gay marriage became legal in the U.S. The vast majority of Americans were against gay marriage and the vast majority of states had legislated against it. Was the gay lobby’s imposition of gay marriage on the populace through a lawsuit remotely democratic? Of course not. Look also at how the Biden administration is now imposing transgenderism on other countries by conditioning economic aid on acceptance of male crossdressers’ “rights.” Is that liberal? Is that democracy? “Liberal democracy” is an Orwellian code word for the cultural preferences of a wealthy, well-connected, white, Western European/American cabal.

This anti-gay anti-tran diatribe is not working. Move on to a new issue already. If you are gay it is fine. No one cares. If you are just trying to use this non issue to sway opinions, forget it.

Again...no one cares if people are gay or trans. People have always been and will always be.

Sorry, no matter how you repeat it, no one is falling for the lie that “trans” people have always existed. Certainly, tiny numbers of people who want to believe they are the opposite sex have always existed, but the idea that this desire actually makes them the opposite sex is a recent fraud and an unconvincing one at that. But how liberal and postmodern of you to keep trying anyway.

No matter how hard you try to make this a big issue, it is failing. The amount of energy, time, and money that has been spent trying to rile people up about trans folks and gay folks is impressive in its futility.

No one is changing governmental structures or switching countries over this non issue. But keep wasting your time on it if that floats your boat.

The post we are both responding to explained quite well that the ramming of gay marriage and transsexual ideology down everyone’s throats are examples of how “liberal” democracy is neither liberal nor democratic. Your blathering about switching countries over cross-dressing men and sodomites is off topic.

This democracy has chosen to protect the rights of all of our gay friends, neighbors, family, co workers, etc. You may want to stomp on all the gay folks in your life but you are in the significant minority. The majority is live and let live.

And this democracy also chose to smash women's rights back 50 years. But the OP seemed to argue that that will be accepted in exchange for security, or better jobs or some nonsense. Quite the opposite is happening and the people are fighting back hard against this change.

*Whispers* The elevation of male transvestites’ “right” to access female spaces is part of the smashing of women’s rights. Classic “liberal democracy” bait and switch to use oppressors reinvented as “minorities” (cross-dressing males) to destroy the rights of an actual oppressed class (women).

Are you OP?

What a stupid question. Try to keep up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem with liberal democracy is that it’s not at all liberal and is hostile to democracy when democracy gets in the way. For instance, look at how gay marriage became legal in the U.S. The vast majority of Americans were against gay marriage and the vast majority of states had legislated against it. Was the gay lobby’s imposition of gay marriage on the populace through a lawsuit remotely democratic? Of course not. Look also at how the Biden administration is now imposing transgenderism on other countries by conditioning economic aid on acceptance of male crossdressers’ “rights.” Is that liberal? Is that democracy? “Liberal democracy” is an Orwellian code word for the cultural preferences of a wealthy, well-connected, white, Western European/American cabal.

What are you blabbering about? Support for same sex marriage was trending upward from the mid-2000s and the majority of Americans supported it in the 2010s. Moreover, it was legalized in many states and even approved by popular vote in Maine, Maryland, and Washington. While you may not personally feel that same sex marriage should be legalized, it was approved and made into law through liberal democracy.

Using your foolish logic, slavery and Jim Crows were against democracy because at one time in history, people saw nothing wrong with these laws.

Until US v. Windsor, gay marriage was illegal in 38 states.

Also, nice try invoking Jim Crow. The forced teaming of race and homosexuality will always fail because genetic traits such as ethnicity and skin color have nothing in common with voluntary sexual practices. Everyone knows this—hence the worldwide opposition to your cause.

m

Freaks like you think that being gay is voluntary. You think that gay people should either be celibate or ruin someone of the opposite sex’s life by marrying them in a sham marriage. Awful. And most straight people get it. Because most of us have a loved one, friend or relative, who is gay and don’t want to see them suffer in life because of that.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.

The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.

Umm, no thanks!

Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.

You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.

A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.

So life is great as long as you’re visiting and the citizen of another country. You can travel around but with the protection of a foreign power.

I'm just saying that people care primarily about meeting their economic needs, and lots and lots of people are perfectly willing to accept reduced freedom and democratic rights in exchange for economic prosperity and solid safety net. Let's be honest, most people aren't that interested in politics. Conversely, if a democracy isn't meeting economic needs, freedom of speech isn't going to keep you warm when you have no job and your money can't buy anything. People assume economic prosperity goes along with liberal democracy but that's not always the case, and a look around the planet shows that many are comfortable without democracy as long as prosperity is there.

I think you have a weird definition for liberal democracy. I cannot think of a nation where the people are happy without it except China. And as I said before, China is still in a honeymoon due to the previous leaders. As Xi takes them further from prosperity, that will change.


As for economics, the vast majority of nations are less well off than the US, and that is why we have a very high immigration rate.

The problem with oligarchies is that absolute power corrupts absolutely, and once the nation falls into the hands of an agressive idiot (say Trump), there is no way out. The nation then falls.

Democracy is messy. Liberal democracy is about repect for truth and the rule of law. No other form of government has those values. (we don't always live up to those values, but at least those are our asperational values in Japan, S. Korea, Europe, the US and other liberal democracies). No other form of government can say that.

[Anonymous]

Anyone who romanticizes authoritarian non democratic regimes has clearly never lived in one …

[Anonymous]

We are going to install a dictatorship in order to outlaw homosexuality and transgenderism? That is ludicrous.

[Anonymous]

Biden =/= Democracy

That's for damn sure. Every time I turn around, he's issuing EOs and edicts like a king.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who romanticizes authoritarian non democratic regimes has clearly never lived in one …

It's clear, all you care about is free stuff like canceled student debt, which isn't really canceled, but just put on the backs of the tax payers.

That's not "democratic". That's authoritarian.

We have three branches of government - how does a "democratic" regime just transfer debt from one person to another under our system? Answer, it doesn't.

This regime is as authoritarian as they come. You yelling "democracy" again and again doesn't change that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Biden =/= Democracy

That's for damn sure. Every time I turn around, he's issuing EOs and edicts like a king.

Please stop sending dysfunctional representatives to congress. EO’s are a crutch for when congress isn’t capable of governing.
But it is not ruling by fiat, as the Supreme Court can end them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who romanticizes authoritarian non democratic regimes has clearly never lived in one …

It's clear, all you care about is free stuff like canceled student debt, which isn't really canceled, but just put on the backs of the tax payers.

That's not "democratic". That's authoritarian.

We have three branches of government - how does a "democratic" regime just transfer debt from one person to another under our system? Answer, it doesn't.

This regime is as authoritarian as they come. You yelling "democracy" again and again doesn't change that.

Make sure you identify your troll posts. This thread is getting confusing. I’m not sure if you are the same trans-troll or just the run of the mill pro-authoritarian troll. Or many you are the some poster? Clean up you posts and identity them. TIA.

[Anonymous]

The poster claiming people in China are happy is hilarious. Just stop.

[Anonymous]

Ok…..and?

Liberal democracy is a cornerstone of “American Exceptionalism.”

It’s why so many people clamor to come here every year, both legally and illegally. It’s why the annual visa lottery is oversubscribed many dozens of times over the annual allotment.

[Anonymous]

Nobody wants democracy
That’s why democracies are having such an issue with massive waves of immigrants.
Nobody wants it.