City of Alexandria rolls out timeline for massive housing reform project

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But in the City of Alexandria, right now, where is the crisis? Where are the droves of Residents (the Council's constituency) that are in "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger" over housing? Unfortunately financial inequities exist, and they always will even in countries purporting to be socialist / communist (look at the immigrant populations in Sweden and France). Alexandria need not destroy itself so DINKs can buy Del Ray townhouses or the Hill staffer can rent an apartment in Potomac Yard. Weirdly, there are plenty of apartments available in the West End - there are 46 units available right now at The Sherwood at Southern Towers, so they are at 89% occupancy. Right --- that developer who will make a cool million knocking down that perfectly good SFH to build three townhouses doesn't get a dime if we just encourage occupancy of the existing housing stock. So it is a crisis of not getting the house one wants or thinks they deserve - what if one wants a SFH, do they not deserve that?

The idea here seems to be that there is no housing crisis if vacant units are available. But there are always going to be vacant rental units available, just like there are always going to be units available for sale. People move in, people move out, people die, people combine households, people separate households...

Also, let's look at those units at The Sherwood at Southern Towers.

391 sf studio, 7 available, starting from $1498/month
514 sf studio, 10 available, starting from $1499/month
653 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 1 available, starting from $1690/month
721 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 8 available, starting from $1678/month
725 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 10 available, starting from $1755/month
884 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 2 available, starting from $2238/month
928 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 4 available, starting from $2290/month
1450 sf 2 BR/2 BA, 2 available, starting from $3013/month
1250 sf 3 BR/2 BA, 1 available, starting from $3002/month

So I guess you are trying to say these rents are outrageous and unaffordable ?

In reality, these rents aren’t too far off from the affordable housing rents offered by the City. Btw the City updates the list monthly.

https://www.alexandriava.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/AUGUST%202023%20CAU%20Monthly%20Report%2008-03-2023.FINALTOUSE.pdf

And from your other example income of $57k is achievable if there are 2 working full time adults in the household. What then happens is they will often take in other relatives to help with the rent and no they don’t add them to the lease.

How many working full time adults should live in a 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment?

2 adults is the usual max. You might be shocked to know but many people in the US live in 1 Br apts. There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bad and it doesn’t mean the people living in them are “less than” though apparently it dies in your eyes

Fine, 2 adults in the 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment that's affordable with a $57,000 gross income. Now, where should their children live? And where should the other relatives live whom they have taken in to help with the rent?

This proposal will not correct that issue unless you are talking about bonus height density. Most of the housing that will come out of this proposal will not be affordable. Rather, proponents argue, its existence will one day relieve pressure on the median and above median income markets, bringing down rent across the board.

The problem with this argument is that this area will continue to remain popular based on its proximity to DC and employers.

They also argue their current infrastructure/school projects will prepare the area for future needs. But they also continuously use old assumptions to determine future need. For example, they say new apartments are not a primary source for school kids historically. But if their argument is that SFHs are going to become unaffordable, then at some point those new apartments will become a source for school kids.

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing that adding housing supply won't change the supply-demand curve. The basic facts are:

1. there's a housing shortage
2. more housing will help alleviate the housing shortage
3. some people are highly motivated to assert that fact 1 and fact 2 are not facts

My post wasn’t meant to imply 1 and 2 aren’t facts. Simply that there are factors that may mitigate the intended impact, potentially significantly. I don’t think construction of new hosing via 3-6 plexes or bonus height density will outweigh population pressures for decades. The lending environment is pretty unfavorable right now. Some people are also highly motivated to simplify complex scenarios and bury unintended impacts by attacking those who raise them as opposed to addressing their arguments.

I was just noticing there is a ton of land along the George Washington Parkway that could be sold to developers for housing. The National Mall has lots of flat, open space. Fort Ward also has lots of space, don’t mind the historical significance and past. This. Is. A. Crisis.

Or we could allow developers to build 2-6 unit buildings where they are currently only allowed to build 1-unit buildings.

Serious question: Who is the target market for those 2 to 6 unit buildings? Are they not available elsewhere in Alexandria?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But in the City of Alexandria, right now, where is the crisis? Where are the droves of Residents (the Council's constituency) that are in "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger" over housing? Unfortunately financial inequities exist, and they always will even in countries purporting to be socialist / communist (look at the immigrant populations in Sweden and France). Alexandria need not destroy itself so DINKs can buy Del Ray townhouses or the Hill staffer can rent an apartment in Potomac Yard. Weirdly, there are plenty of apartments available in the West End - there are 46 units available right now at The Sherwood at Southern Towers, so they are at 89% occupancy. Right --- that developer who will make a cool million knocking down that perfectly good SFH to build three townhouses doesn't get a dime if we just encourage occupancy of the existing housing stock. So it is a crisis of not getting the house one wants or thinks they deserve - what if one wants a SFH, do they not deserve that?

The idea here seems to be that there is no housing crisis if vacant units are available. But there are always going to be vacant rental units available, just like there are always going to be units available for sale. People move in, people move out, people die, people combine households, people separate households...

Also, let's look at those units at The Sherwood at Southern Towers.

391 sf studio, 7 available, starting from $1498/month
514 sf studio, 10 available, starting from $1499/month
653 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 1 available, starting from $1690/month
721 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 8 available, starting from $1678/month
725 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 10 available, starting from $1755/month
884 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 2 available, starting from $2238/month
928 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 4 available, starting from $2290/month
1450 sf 2 BR/2 BA, 2 available, starting from $3013/month
1250 sf 3 BR/2 BA, 1 available, starting from $3002/month

So I guess you are trying to say these rents are outrageous and unaffordable ?

In reality, these rents aren’t too far off from the affordable housing rents offered by the City. Btw the City updates the list monthly.

https://www.alexandriava.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/AUGUST%202023%20CAU%20Monthly%20Report%2008-03-2023.FINALTOUSE.pdf

And from your other example income of $57k is achievable if there are 2 working full time adults in the household. What then happens is they will often take in other relatives to help with the rent and no they don’t add them to the lease.

How many working full time adults should live in a 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment?

2 adults is the usual max. You might be shocked to know but many people in the US live in 1 Br apts. There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bad and it doesn’t mean the people living in them are “less than” though apparently it dies in your eyes

Fine, 2 adults in the 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment that's affordable with a $57,000 gross income. Now, where should their children live? And where should the other relatives live whom they have taken in to help with the rent?

This proposal will not correct that issue unless you are talking about bonus height density. Most of the housing that will come out of this proposal will not be affordable. Rather, proponents argue, its existence will one day relieve pressure on the median and above median income markets, bringing down rent across the board.

The problem with this argument is that this area will continue to remain popular based on its proximity to DC and employers.

They also argue their current infrastructure/school projects will prepare the area for future needs. But they also continuously use old assumptions to determine future need. For example, they say new apartments are not a primary source for school kids historically. But if their argument is that SFHs are going to become unaffordable, then at some point those new apartments will become a source for school kids.

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing that adding housing supply won't change the supply-demand curve. The basic facts are:

1. there's a housing shortage
2. more housing will help alleviate the housing shortage
3. some people are highly motivated to assert that fact 1 and fact 2 are not facts

My post wasn’t meant to imply 1 and 2 aren’t facts. Simply that there are factors that may mitigate the intended impact, potentially significantly. I don’t think construction of new hosing via 3-6 plexes or bonus height density will outweigh population pressures for decades. The lending environment is pretty unfavorable right now. Some people are also highly motivated to simplify complex scenarios and bury unintended impacts by attacking those who raise them as opposed to addressing their arguments.

I was just noticing there is a ton of land along the George Washington Parkway that could be sold to developers for housing. The National Mall has lots of flat, open space. Fort Ward also has lots of space, don’t mind the historical significance and past. This. Is. A. Crisis.

Or we could allow developers to build 2-6 unit buildings where they are currently only allowed to build 1-unit buildings.

Serious question: Who is the target market for those 2 to 6 unit buildings? Are they not available elsewhere in Alexandria?

People who want to live in multi-unit buildings that aren't big multi-unit buildings. Where in Alexandria do you believe such buildings exist?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But in the City of Alexandria, right now, where is the crisis? Where are the droves of Residents (the Council's constituency) that are in "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger" over housing? Unfortunately financial inequities exist, and they always will even in countries purporting to be socialist / communist (look at the immigrant populations in Sweden and France). Alexandria need not destroy itself so DINKs can buy Del Ray townhouses or the Hill staffer can rent an apartment in Potomac Yard. Weirdly, there are plenty of apartments available in the West End - there are 46 units available right now at The Sherwood at Southern Towers, so they are at 89% occupancy. Right --- that developer who will make a cool million knocking down that perfectly good SFH to build three townhouses doesn't get a dime if we just encourage occupancy of the existing housing stock. So it is a crisis of not getting the house one wants or thinks they deserve - what if one wants a SFH, do they not deserve that?

The idea here seems to be that there is no housing crisis if vacant units are available. But there are always going to be vacant rental units available, just like there are always going to be units available for sale. People move in, people move out, people die, people combine households, people separate households...

Also, let's look at those units at The Sherwood at Southern Towers.

391 sf studio, 7 available, starting from $1498/month
514 sf studio, 10 available, starting from $1499/month
653 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 1 available, starting from $1690/month
721 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 8 available, starting from $1678/month
725 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 10 available, starting from $1755/month
884 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 2 available, starting from $2238/month
928 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 4 available, starting from $2290/month
1450 sf 2 BR/2 BA, 2 available, starting from $3013/month
1250 sf 3 BR/2 BA, 1 available, starting from $3002/month

So I guess you are trying to say these rents are outrageous and unaffordable ?

In reality, these rents aren’t too far off from the affordable housing rents offered by the City. Btw the City updates the list monthly.

https://www.alexandriava.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/AUGUST%202023%20CAU%20Monthly%20Report%2008-03-2023.FINALTOUSE.pdf

And from your other example income of $57k is achievable if there are 2 working full time adults in the household. What then happens is they will often take in other relatives to help with the rent and no they don’t add them to the lease.

How many working full time adults should live in a 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment?

2 adults is the usual max. You might be shocked to know but many people in the US live in 1 Br apts. There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bad and it doesn’t mean the people living in them are “less than” though apparently it dies in your eyes

Fine, 2 adults in the 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment that's affordable with a $57,000 gross income. Now, where should their children live? And where should the other relatives live whom they have taken in to help with the rent?

This proposal will not correct that issue unless you are talking about bonus height density. Most of the housing that will come out of this proposal will not be affordable. Rather, proponents argue, its existence will one day relieve pressure on the median and above median income markets, bringing down rent across the board.

The problem with this argument is that this area will continue to remain popular based on its proximity to DC and employers.

They also argue their current infrastructure/school projects will prepare the area for future needs. But they also continuously use old assumptions to determine future need. For example, they say new apartments are not a primary source for school kids historically. But if their argument is that SFHs are going to become unaffordable, then at some point those new apartments will become a source for school kids.

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing that adding housing supply won't change the supply-demand curve. The basic facts are:

1. there's a housing shortage
2. more housing will help alleviate the housing shortage
3. some people are highly motivated to assert that fact 1 and fact 2 are not facts

My post wasn’t meant to imply 1 and 2 aren’t facts. Simply that there are factors that may mitigate the intended impact, potentially significantly. I don’t think construction of new hosing via 3-6 plexes or bonus height density will outweigh population pressures for decades. The lending environment is pretty unfavorable right now. Some people are also highly motivated to simplify complex scenarios and bury unintended impacts by attacking those who raise them as opposed to addressing their arguments.

I was just noticing there is a ton of land along the George Washington Parkway that could be sold to developers for housing. The National Mall has lots of flat, open space. Fort Ward also has lots of space, don’t mind the historical significance and past. This. Is. A. Crisis.

Or we could allow developers to build 2-6 unit buildings where they are currently only allowed to build 1-unit buildings.

Because that would impact this crisis, right? If every detached single family home in Alexandria was razed and replaced with a 3-plex that would increase housing stock by roughly 30,000 - if that. But what is not factored in is there are plenty of people who would still want a detached SFH willing to pay as much or more than developers on a very limited supply. Doing nothing for housing supply. And increasing those McMansion so loathed by Yimbys. So why not Fort Ward? Shouldn’t all cards be on the table to avert this crisis?

Personally, I will not be happy until Justin Thyme and his brothers, Justin Case and Justin Continent sell the air rights above the King St. and Seminary Rd. bike lanes to developers to build 2 to 6 units. At least someone would get some utility out of the bike lanes

[Anonymous]

Based on what evidence is there a "housing shortage?" I want actual evidence that people aren't being housed, who would otherwise be housed, if there were more housing built. I don't want made up economic rules like "cost burdened" or percentage of income, or desired vs actual location. These are all arbitrary BS.

People will always want to spend less on housing, people will always want to live in a better neighborhood, people will always want something bigger, no matter how much housing you build.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But in the City of Alexandria, right now, where is the crisis? Where are the droves of Residents (the Council's constituency) that are in "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger" over housing? Unfortunately financial inequities exist, and they always will even in countries purporting to be socialist / communist (look at the immigrant populations in Sweden and France). Alexandria need not destroy itself so DINKs can buy Del Ray townhouses or the Hill staffer can rent an apartment in Potomac Yard. Weirdly, there are plenty of apartments available in the West End - there are 46 units available right now at The Sherwood at Southern Towers, so they are at 89% occupancy. Right --- that developer who will make a cool million knocking down that perfectly good SFH to build three townhouses doesn't get a dime if we just encourage occupancy of the existing housing stock. So it is a crisis of not getting the house one wants or thinks they deserve - what if one wants a SFH, do they not deserve that?

The idea here seems to be that there is no housing crisis if vacant units are available. But there are always going to be vacant rental units available, just like there are always going to be units available for sale. People move in, people move out, people die, people combine households, people separate households...

Also, let's look at those units at The Sherwood at Southern Towers.

391 sf studio, 7 available, starting from $1498/month
514 sf studio, 10 available, starting from $1499/month
653 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 1 available, starting from $1690/month
721 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 8 available, starting from $1678/month
725 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 10 available, starting from $1755/month
884 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 2 available, starting from $2238/month
928 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 4 available, starting from $2290/month
1450 sf 2 BR/2 BA, 2 available, starting from $3013/month
1250 sf 3 BR/2 BA, 1 available, starting from $3002/month

So I guess you are trying to say these rents are outrageous and unaffordable ?

In reality, these rents aren’t too far off from the affordable housing rents offered by the City. Btw the City updates the list monthly.

https://www.alexandriava.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/AUGUST%202023%20CAU%20Monthly%20Report%2008-03-2023.FINALTOUSE.pdf

And from your other example income of $57k is achievable if there are 2 working full time adults in the household. What then happens is they will often take in other relatives to help with the rent and no they don’t add them to the lease.

How many working full time adults should live in a 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment?

2 adults is the usual max. You might be shocked to know but many people in the US live in 1 Br apts. There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bad and it doesn’t mean the people living in them are “less than” though apparently it dies in your eyes

Fine, 2 adults in the 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment that's affordable with a $57,000 gross income. Now, where should their children live? And where should the other relatives live whom they have taken in to help with the rent?

This proposal will not correct that issue unless you are talking about bonus height density. Most of the housing that will come out of this proposal will not be affordable. Rather, proponents argue, its existence will one day relieve pressure on the median and above median income markets, bringing down rent across the board.

The problem with this argument is that this area will continue to remain popular based on its proximity to DC and employers.

They also argue their current infrastructure/school projects will prepare the area for future needs. But they also continuously use old assumptions to determine future need. For example, they say new apartments are not a primary source for school kids historically. But if their argument is that SFHs are going to become unaffordable, then at some point those new apartments will become a source for school kids.

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing that adding housing supply won't change the supply-demand curve. The basic facts are:

1. there's a housing shortage
2. more housing will help alleviate the housing shortage
3. some people are highly motivated to assert that fact 1 and fact 2 are not facts

My post wasn’t meant to imply 1 and 2 aren’t facts. Simply that there are factors that may mitigate the intended impact, potentially significantly. I don’t think construction of new hosing via 3-6 plexes or bonus height density will outweigh population pressures for decades. The lending environment is pretty unfavorable right now. Some people are also highly motivated to simplify complex scenarios and bury unintended impacts by attacking those who raise them as opposed to addressing their arguments.

I was just noticing there is a ton of land along the George Washington Parkway that could be sold to developers for housing. The National Mall has lots of flat, open space. Fort Ward also has lots of space, don’t mind the historical significance and past. This. Is. A. Crisis.

Or we could allow developers to build 2-6 unit buildings where they are currently only allowed to build 1-unit buildings.

Because that would impact this crisis, right? If every detached single family home in Alexandria was razed and replaced with a 3-plex that would increase housing stock by roughly 30,000 - if that. But what is not factored in is there are plenty of people who would still want a detached SFH willing to pay as much or more than developers on a very limited supply. Doing nothing for housing supply. And increasing those McMansion so loathed by Yimbys. So why not Fort Ward? Shouldn’t all cards be on the table to avert this crisis?

It would increase the number of housing units by 20,000, not 30,000. Which would be a big increase in the number of housing units in Alexandria.

If you don't think people would build triplexes, then there's no need for you to bother opposing the proposal, because people won't do it even if allowed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Based on what evidence is there a "housing shortage?" I want actual evidence that people aren't being housed, who would otherwise be housed, if there were more housing built. I don't want made up economic rules like "cost burdened" or percentage of income, or desired vs actual location. These are all arbitrary BS.

People will always want to spend less on housing, people will always want to live in a better neighborhood, people will always want something bigger, no matter how much housing you build.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But in the City of Alexandria, right now, where is the crisis? Where are the droves of Residents (the Council's constituency) that are in "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger" over housing? Unfortunately financial inequities exist, and they always will even in countries purporting to be socialist / communist (look at the immigrant populations in Sweden and France). Alexandria need not destroy itself so DINKs can buy Del Ray townhouses or the Hill staffer can rent an apartment in Potomac Yard. Weirdly, there are plenty of apartments available in the West End - there are 46 units available right now at The Sherwood at Southern Towers, so they are at 89% occupancy. Right --- that developer who will make a cool million knocking down that perfectly good SFH to build three townhouses doesn't get a dime if we just encourage occupancy of the existing housing stock. So it is a crisis of not getting the house one wants or thinks they deserve - what if one wants a SFH, do they not deserve that?

The idea here seems to be that there is no housing crisis if vacant units are available. But there are always going to be vacant rental units available, just like there are always going to be units available for sale. People move in, people move out, people die, people combine households, people separate households...

Also, let's look at those units at The Sherwood at Southern Towers.

391 sf studio, 7 available, starting from $1498/month
514 sf studio, 10 available, starting from $1499/month
653 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 1 available, starting from $1690/month
721 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 8 available, starting from $1678/month
725 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 10 available, starting from $1755/month
884 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 2 available, starting from $2238/month
928 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 4 available, starting from $2290/month
1450 sf 2 BR/2 BA, 2 available, starting from $3013/month
1250 sf 3 BR/2 BA, 1 available, starting from $3002/month

So I guess you are trying to say these rents are outrageous and unaffordable ?

In reality, these rents aren’t too far off from the affordable housing rents offered by the City. Btw the City updates the list monthly.

https://www.alexandriava.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/AUGUST%202023%20CAU%20Monthly%20Report%2008-03-2023.FINALTOUSE.pdf

And from your other example income of $57k is achievable if there are 2 working full time adults in the household. What then happens is they will often take in other relatives to help with the rent and no they don’t add them to the lease.

How many working full time adults should live in a 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment?

2 adults is the usual max. You might be shocked to know but many people in the US live in 1 Br apts. There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bad and it doesn’t mean the people living in them are “less than” though apparently it dies in your eyes

Fine, 2 adults in the 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment that's affordable with a $57,000 gross income. Now, where should their children live? And where should the other relatives live whom they have taken in to help with the rent?

This proposal will not correct that issue unless you are talking about bonus height density. Most of the housing that will come out of this proposal will not be affordable. Rather, proponents argue, its existence will one day relieve pressure on the median and above median income markets, bringing down rent across the board.

The problem with this argument is that this area will continue to remain popular based on its proximity to DC and employers.

They also argue their current infrastructure/school projects will prepare the area for future needs. But they also continuously use old assumptions to determine future need. For example, they say new apartments are not a primary source for school kids historically. But if their argument is that SFHs are going to become unaffordable, then at some point those new apartments will become a source for school kids.

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing that adding housing supply won't change the supply-demand curve. The basic facts are:

1. there's a housing shortage
2. more housing will help alleviate the housing shortage
3. some people are highly motivated to assert that fact 1 and fact 2 are not facts

My post wasn’t meant to imply 1 and 2 aren’t facts. Simply that there are factors that may mitigate the intended impact, potentially significantly. I don’t think construction of new hosing via 3-6 plexes or bonus height density will outweigh population pressures for decades. The lending environment is pretty unfavorable right now. Some people are also highly motivated to simplify complex scenarios and bury unintended impacts by attacking those who raise them as opposed to addressing their arguments.

I was just noticing there is a ton of land along the George Washington Parkway that could be sold to developers for housing. The National Mall has lots of flat, open space. Fort Ward also has lots of space, don’t mind the historical significance and past. This. Is. A. Crisis.

Or we could allow developers to build 2-6 unit buildings where they are currently only allowed to build 1-unit buildings.

Serious question: Who is the target market for those 2 to 6 unit buildings? Are they not available elsewhere in Alexandria?

People who want to live in multi-unit buildings that aren't big multi-unit buildings. Where in Alexandria do you believe such buildings exist?

Parkfairfax, DelRay, Fairlington Towne, Fairlington, and Kenwood Towers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Based on what evidence is there a "housing shortage?" I want actual evidence that people aren't being housed, who would otherwise be housed, if there were more housing built. I don't want made up economic rules like "cost burdened" or percentage of income, or desired vs actual location. These are all arbitrary BS.

People will always want to spend less on housing, people will always want to live in a better neighborhood, people will always want something bigger, no matter how much housing you build.

So no evidence, then?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But in the City of Alexandria, right now, where is the crisis? Where are the droves of Residents (the Council's constituency) that are in "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger" over housing? Unfortunately financial inequities exist, and they always will even in countries purporting to be socialist / communist (look at the immigrant populations in Sweden and France). Alexandria need not destroy itself so DINKs can buy Del Ray townhouses or the Hill staffer can rent an apartment in Potomac Yard. Weirdly, there are plenty of apartments available in the West End - there are 46 units available right now at The Sherwood at Southern Towers, so they are at 89% occupancy. Right --- that developer who will make a cool million knocking down that perfectly good SFH to build three townhouses doesn't get a dime if we just encourage occupancy of the existing housing stock. So it is a crisis of not getting the house one wants or thinks they deserve - what if one wants a SFH, do they not deserve that?

The idea here seems to be that there is no housing crisis if vacant units are available. But there are always going to be vacant rental units available, just like there are always going to be units available for sale. People move in, people move out, people die, people combine households, people separate households...

Also, let's look at those units at The Sherwood at Southern Towers.

391 sf studio, 7 available, starting from $1498/month
514 sf studio, 10 available, starting from $1499/month
653 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 1 available, starting from $1690/month
721 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 8 available, starting from $1678/month
725 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 10 available, starting from $1755/month
884 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 2 available, starting from $2238/month
928 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 4 available, starting from $2290/month
1450 sf 2 BR/2 BA, 2 available, starting from $3013/month
1250 sf 3 BR/2 BA, 1 available, starting from $3002/month

So I guess you are trying to say these rents are outrageous and unaffordable ?

In reality, these rents aren’t too far off from the affordable housing rents offered by the City. Btw the City updates the list monthly.

https://www.alexandriava.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/AUGUST%202023%20CAU%20Monthly%20Report%2008-03-2023.FINALTOUSE.pdf

And from your other example income of $57k is achievable if there are 2 working full time adults in the household. What then happens is they will often take in other relatives to help with the rent and no they don’t add them to the lease.

How many working full time adults should live in a 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment?

2 adults is the usual max. You might be shocked to know but many people in the US live in 1 Br apts. There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bad and it doesn’t mean the people living in them are “less than” though apparently it dies in your eyes

Fine, 2 adults in the 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment that's affordable with a $57,000 gross income. Now, where should their children live? And where should the other relatives live whom they have taken in to help with the rent?

This proposal will not correct that issue unless you are talking about bonus height density. Most of the housing that will come out of this proposal will not be affordable. Rather, proponents argue, its existence will one day relieve pressure on the median and above median income markets, bringing down rent across the board.

The problem with this argument is that this area will continue to remain popular based on its proximity to DC and employers.

They also argue their current infrastructure/school projects will prepare the area for future needs. But they also continuously use old assumptions to determine future need. For example, they say new apartments are not a primary source for school kids historically. But if their argument is that SFHs are going to become unaffordable, then at some point those new apartments will become a source for school kids.

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing that adding housing supply won't change the supply-demand curve. The basic facts are:

1. there's a housing shortage
2. more housing will help alleviate the housing shortage
3. some people are highly motivated to assert that fact 1 and fact 2 are not facts

My post wasn’t meant to imply 1 and 2 aren’t facts. Simply that there are factors that may mitigate the intended impact, potentially significantly. I don’t think construction of new hosing via 3-6 plexes or bonus height density will outweigh population pressures for decades. The lending environment is pretty unfavorable right now. Some people are also highly motivated to simplify complex scenarios and bury unintended impacts by attacking those who raise them as opposed to addressing their arguments.

I was just noticing there is a ton of land along the George Washington Parkway that could be sold to developers for housing. The National Mall has lots of flat, open space. Fort Ward also has lots of space, don’t mind the historical significance and past. This. Is. A. Crisis.

Ivy Hill Cemetery has acres of unused land, and the neighbors are quiet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But in the City of Alexandria, right now, where is the crisis? Where are the droves of Residents (the Council's constituency) that are in "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger" over housing? Unfortunately financial inequities exist, and they always will even in countries purporting to be socialist / communist (look at the immigrant populations in Sweden and France). Alexandria need not destroy itself so DINKs can buy Del Ray townhouses or the Hill staffer can rent an apartment in Potomac Yard. Weirdly, there are plenty of apartments available in the West End - there are 46 units available right now at The Sherwood at Southern Towers, so they are at 89% occupancy. Right --- that developer who will make a cool million knocking down that perfectly good SFH to build three townhouses doesn't get a dime if we just encourage occupancy of the existing housing stock. So it is a crisis of not getting the house one wants or thinks they deserve - what if one wants a SFH, do they not deserve that?

The idea here seems to be that there is no housing crisis if vacant units are available. But there are always going to be vacant rental units available, just like there are always going to be units available for sale. People move in, people move out, people die, people combine households, people separate households...

Also, let's look at those units at The Sherwood at Southern Towers.

391 sf studio, 7 available, starting from $1498/month
514 sf studio, 10 available, starting from $1499/month
653 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 1 available, starting from $1690/month
721 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 8 available, starting from $1678/month
725 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 10 available, starting from $1755/month
884 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 2 available, starting from $2238/month
928 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 4 available, starting from $2290/month
1450 sf 2 BR/2 BA, 2 available, starting from $3013/month
1250 sf 3 BR/2 BA, 1 available, starting from $3002/month

So I guess you are trying to say these rents are outrageous and unaffordable ?

In reality, these rents aren’t too far off from the affordable housing rents offered by the City. Btw the City updates the list monthly.

https://www.alexandriava.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/AUGUST%202023%20CAU%20Monthly%20Report%2008-03-2023.FINALTOUSE.pdf

And from your other example income of $57k is achievable if there are 2 working full time adults in the household. What then happens is they will often take in other relatives to help with the rent and no they don’t add them to the lease.

How many working full time adults should live in a 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment?

2 adults is the usual max. You might be shocked to know but many people in the US live in 1 Br apts. There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bad and it doesn’t mean the people living in them are “less than” though apparently it dies in your eyes

Fine, 2 adults in the 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment that's affordable with a $57,000 gross income. Now, where should their children live? And where should the other relatives live whom they have taken in to help with the rent?

This proposal will not correct that issue unless you are talking about bonus height density. Most of the housing that will come out of this proposal will not be affordable. Rather, proponents argue, its existence will one day relieve pressure on the median and above median income markets, bringing down rent across the board.

The problem with this argument is that this area will continue to remain popular based on its proximity to DC and employers.

They also argue their current infrastructure/school projects will prepare the area for future needs. But they also continuously use old assumptions to determine future need. For example, they say new apartments are not a primary source for school kids historically. But if their argument is that SFHs are going to become unaffordable, then at some point those new apartments will become a source for school kids.

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing that adding housing supply won't change the supply-demand curve. The basic facts are:

1. there's a housing shortage
2. more housing will help alleviate the housing shortage
3. some people are highly motivated to assert that fact 1 and fact 2 are not facts

My post wasn’t meant to imply 1 and 2 aren’t facts. Simply that there are factors that may mitigate the intended impact, potentially significantly. I don’t think construction of new hosing via 3-6 plexes or bonus height density will outweigh population pressures for decades. The lending environment is pretty unfavorable right now. Some people are also highly motivated to simplify complex scenarios and bury unintended impacts by attacking those who raise them as opposed to addressing their arguments.

I was just noticing there is a ton of land along the George Washington Parkway that could be sold to developers for housing. The National Mall has lots of flat, open space. Fort Ward also has lots of space, don’t mind the historical significance and past. This. Is. A. Crisis.

Or we could allow developers to build 2-6 unit buildings where they are currently only allowed to build 1-unit buildings.

Serious question: Who is the target market for those 2 to 6 unit buildings? Are they not available elsewhere in Alexandria?

People who want to live in multi-unit buildings that aren't big multi-unit buildings. Where in Alexandria do you believe such buildings exist?

Well there are already tons of duplexes. Once you get to a triplex you are effectively talking about a town house to already tons of those. So it’s really 4-6 plexes wedged in between SFH on narrow streets with one side of street parking only near metros (Del Ray/Rosemount/GW Park). I mean, sure, they could pop up elsewhere but that’s the most likely location.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But in the City of Alexandria, right now, where is the crisis? Where are the droves of Residents (the Council's constituency) that are in "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger" over housing? Unfortunately financial inequities exist, and they always will even in countries purporting to be socialist / communist (look at the immigrant populations in Sweden and France). Alexandria need not destroy itself so DINKs can buy Del Ray townhouses or the Hill staffer can rent an apartment in Potomac Yard. Weirdly, there are plenty of apartments available in the West End - there are 46 units available right now at The Sherwood at Southern Towers, so they are at 89% occupancy. Right --- that developer who will make a cool million knocking down that perfectly good SFH to build three townhouses doesn't get a dime if we just encourage occupancy of the existing housing stock. So it is a crisis of not getting the house one wants or thinks they deserve - what if one wants a SFH, do they not deserve that?

The idea here seems to be that there is no housing crisis if vacant units are available. But there are always going to be vacant rental units available, just like there are always going to be units available for sale. People move in, people move out, people die, people combine households, people separate households...

Also, let's look at those units at The Sherwood at Southern Towers.

391 sf studio, 7 available, starting from $1498/month
514 sf studio, 10 available, starting from $1499/month
653 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 1 available, starting from $1690/month
721 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 8 available, starting from $1678/month
725 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 10 available, starting from $1755/month
884 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 2 available, starting from $2238/month
928 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 4 available, starting from $2290/month
1450 sf 2 BR/2 BA, 2 available, starting from $3013/month
1250 sf 3 BR/2 BA, 1 available, starting from $3002/month

So I guess you are trying to say these rents are outrageous and unaffordable ?

In reality, these rents aren’t too far off from the affordable housing rents offered by the City. Btw the City updates the list monthly.

https://www.alexandriava.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/AUGUST%202023%20CAU%20Monthly%20Report%2008-03-2023.FINALTOUSE.pdf

And from your other example income of $57k is achievable if there are 2 working full time adults in the household. What then happens is they will often take in other relatives to help with the rent and no they don’t add them to the lease.

How many working full time adults should live in a 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment?

2 adults is the usual max. You might be shocked to know but many people in the US live in 1 Br apts. There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bad and it doesn’t mean the people living in them are “less than” though apparently it dies in your eyes

Fine, 2 adults in the 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment that's affordable with a $57,000 gross income. Now, where should their children live? And where should the other relatives live whom they have taken in to help with the rent?

This proposal will not correct that issue unless you are talking about bonus height density. Most of the housing that will come out of this proposal will not be affordable. Rather, proponents argue, its existence will one day relieve pressure on the median and above median income markets, bringing down rent across the board.

The problem with this argument is that this area will continue to remain popular based on its proximity to DC and employers.

They also argue their current infrastructure/school projects will prepare the area for future needs. But they also continuously use old assumptions to determine future need. For example, they say new apartments are not a primary source for school kids historically. But if their argument is that SFHs are going to become unaffordable, then at some point those new apartments will become a source for school kids.

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing that adding housing supply won't change the supply-demand curve. The basic facts are:

1. there's a housing shortage
2. more housing will help alleviate the housing shortage
3. some people are highly motivated to assert that fact 1 and fact 2 are not facts

My post wasn’t meant to imply 1 and 2 aren’t facts. Simply that there are factors that may mitigate the intended impact, potentially significantly. I don’t think construction of new hosing via 3-6 plexes or bonus height density will outweigh population pressures for decades. The lending environment is pretty unfavorable right now. Some people are also highly motivated to simplify complex scenarios and bury unintended impacts by attacking those who raise them as opposed to addressing their arguments.

I was just noticing there is a ton of land along the George Washington Parkway that could be sold to developers for housing. The National Mall has lots of flat, open space. Fort Ward also has lots of space, don’t mind the historical significance and past. This. Is. A. Crisis.

Ivy Hill Cemetery has acres of unused land, and the neighbors are quiet.

We should really bring going after the Seminary, Episcopal and the Baptist Church on King. Biggest land hoards in the city, and, predictably, connected to religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But in the City of Alexandria, right now, where is the crisis? Where are the droves of Residents (the Council's constituency) that are in "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger" over housing? Unfortunately financial inequities exist, and they always will even in countries purporting to be socialist / communist (look at the immigrant populations in Sweden and France). Alexandria need not destroy itself so DINKs can buy Del Ray townhouses or the Hill staffer can rent an apartment in Potomac Yard. Weirdly, there are plenty of apartments available in the West End - there are 46 units available right now at The Sherwood at Southern Towers, so they are at 89% occupancy. Right --- that developer who will make a cool million knocking down that perfectly good SFH to build three townhouses doesn't get a dime if we just encourage occupancy of the existing housing stock. So it is a crisis of not getting the house one wants or thinks they deserve - what if one wants a SFH, do they not deserve that?

The idea here seems to be that there is no housing crisis if vacant units are available. But there are always going to be vacant rental units available, just like there are always going to be units available for sale. People move in, people move out, people die, people combine households, people separate households...

Also, let's look at those units at The Sherwood at Southern Towers.

391 sf studio, 7 available, starting from $1498/month
514 sf studio, 10 available, starting from $1499/month
653 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 1 available, starting from $1690/month
721 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 8 available, starting from $1678/month
725 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 10 available, starting from $1755/month
884 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 2 available, starting from $2238/month
928 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 4 available, starting from $2290/month
1450 sf 2 BR/2 BA, 2 available, starting from $3013/month
1250 sf 3 BR/2 BA, 1 available, starting from $3002/month

So I guess you are trying to say these rents are outrageous and unaffordable ?

In reality, these rents aren’t too far off from the affordable housing rents offered by the City. Btw the City updates the list monthly.

https://www.alexandriava.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/AUGUST%202023%20CAU%20Monthly%20Report%2008-03-2023.FINALTOUSE.pdf

And from your other example income of $57k is achievable if there are 2 working full time adults in the household. What then happens is they will often take in other relatives to help with the rent and no they don’t add them to the lease.

How many working full time adults should live in a 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment?

2 adults is the usual max. You might be shocked to know but many people in the US live in 1 Br apts. There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bad and it doesn’t mean the people living in them are “less than” though apparently it dies in your eyes

Fine, 2 adults in the 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment that's affordable with a $57,000 gross income. Now, where should their children live? And where should the other relatives live whom they have taken in to help with the rent?

This proposal will not correct that issue unless you are talking about bonus height density. Most of the housing that will come out of this proposal will not be affordable. Rather, proponents argue, its existence will one day relieve pressure on the median and above median income markets, bringing down rent across the board.

The problem with this argument is that this area will continue to remain popular based on its proximity to DC and employers.

They also argue their current infrastructure/school projects will prepare the area for future needs. But they also continuously use old assumptions to determine future need. For example, they say new apartments are not a primary source for school kids historically. But if their argument is that SFHs are going to become unaffordable, then at some point those new apartments will become a source for school kids.

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing that adding housing supply won't change the supply-demand curve. The basic facts are:

1. there's a housing shortage
2. more housing will help alleviate the housing shortage
3. some people are highly motivated to assert that fact 1 and fact 2 are not facts

My post wasn’t meant to imply 1 and 2 aren’t facts. Simply that there are factors that may mitigate the intended impact, potentially significantly. I don’t think construction of new hosing via 3-6 plexes or bonus height density will outweigh population pressures for decades. The lending environment is pretty unfavorable right now. Some people are also highly motivated to simplify complex scenarios and bury unintended impacts by attacking those who raise them as opposed to addressing their arguments.

I was just noticing there is a ton of land along the George Washington Parkway that could be sold to developers for housing. The National Mall has lots of flat, open space. Fort Ward also has lots of space, don’t mind the historical significance and past. This. Is. A. Crisis.

Or we could allow developers to build 2-6 unit buildings where they are currently only allowed to build 1-unit buildings.

Serious question: Who is the target market for those 2 to 6 unit buildings? Are they not available elsewhere in Alexandria?

People who want to live in multi-unit buildings that aren't big multi-unit buildings. Where in Alexandria do you believe such buildings exist?

Well there are already tons of duplexes. Once you get to a triplex you are effectively talking about a town house to already tons of those. So it’s really 4-6 plexes wedged in between SFH on narrow streets with one side of street parking only near metros (Del Ray/Rosemount/GW Park). I mean, sure, they could pop up elsewhere but that’s the most likely location.

If there are already tons of duplexes, then they're not exotic, and nobody will get in a panic about allowing more property owners to build duplexes in places where property owners are currently not allowed to build duplexes. That's great news!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But in the City of Alexandria, right now, where is the crisis? Where are the droves of Residents (the Council's constituency) that are in "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger" over housing? Unfortunately financial inequities exist, and they always will even in countries purporting to be socialist / communist (look at the immigrant populations in Sweden and France). Alexandria need not destroy itself so DINKs can buy Del Ray townhouses or the Hill staffer can rent an apartment in Potomac Yard. Weirdly, there are plenty of apartments available in the West End - there are 46 units available right now at The Sherwood at Southern Towers, so they are at 89% occupancy. Right --- that developer who will make a cool million knocking down that perfectly good SFH to build three townhouses doesn't get a dime if we just encourage occupancy of the existing housing stock. So it is a crisis of not getting the house one wants or thinks they deserve - what if one wants a SFH, do they not deserve that?

The idea here seems to be that there is no housing crisis if vacant units are available. But there are always going to be vacant rental units available, just like there are always going to be units available for sale. People move in, people move out, people die, people combine households, people separate households...

Also, let's look at those units at The Sherwood at Southern Towers.

391 sf studio, 7 available, starting from $1498/month
514 sf studio, 10 available, starting from $1499/month
653 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 1 available, starting from $1690/month
721 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 8 available, starting from $1678/month
725 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 10 available, starting from $1755/month
884 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 2 available, starting from $2238/month
928 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 4 available, starting from $2290/month
1450 sf 2 BR/2 BA, 2 available, starting from $3013/month
1250 sf 3 BR/2 BA, 1 available, starting from $3002/month

So I guess you are trying to say these rents are outrageous and unaffordable ?

In reality, these rents aren’t too far off from the affordable housing rents offered by the City. Btw the City updates the list monthly.

https://www.alexandriava.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/AUGUST%202023%20CAU%20Monthly%20Report%2008-03-2023.FINALTOUSE.pdf

And from your other example income of $57k is achievable if there are 2 working full time adults in the household. What then happens is they will often take in other relatives to help with the rent and no they don’t add them to the lease.

How many working full time adults should live in a 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment?

2 adults is the usual max. You might be shocked to know but many people in the US live in 1 Br apts. There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bad and it doesn’t mean the people living in them are “less than” though apparently it dies in your eyes

Fine, 2 adults in the 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment that's affordable with a $57,000 gross income. Now, where should their children live? And where should the other relatives live whom they have taken in to help with the rent?

This proposal will not correct that issue unless you are talking about bonus height density. Most of the housing that will come out of this proposal will not be affordable. Rather, proponents argue, its existence will one day relieve pressure on the median and above median income markets, bringing down rent across the board.

The problem with this argument is that this area will continue to remain popular based on its proximity to DC and employers.

They also argue their current infrastructure/school projects will prepare the area for future needs. But they also continuously use old assumptions to determine future need. For example, they say new apartments are not a primary source for school kids historically. But if their argument is that SFHs are going to become unaffordable, then at some point those new apartments will become a source for school kids.

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing that adding housing supply won't change the supply-demand curve. The basic facts are:

1. there's a housing shortage
2. more housing will help alleviate the housing shortage
3. some people are highly motivated to assert that fact 1 and fact 2 are not facts

My post wasn’t meant to imply 1 and 2 aren’t facts. Simply that there are factors that may mitigate the intended impact, potentially significantly. I don’t think construction of new hosing via 3-6 plexes or bonus height density will outweigh population pressures for decades. The lending environment is pretty unfavorable right now. Some people are also highly motivated to simplify complex scenarios and bury unintended impacts by attacking those who raise them as opposed to addressing their arguments.

I was just noticing there is a ton of land along the George Washington Parkway that could be sold to developers for housing. The National Mall has lots of flat, open space. Fort Ward also has lots of space, don’t mind the historical significance and past. This. Is. A. Crisis.

Or we could allow developers to build 2-6 unit buildings where they are currently only allowed to build 1-unit buildings.

Serious question: Who is the target market for those 2 to 6 unit buildings? Are they not available elsewhere in Alexandria?

People who want to live in multi-unit buildings that aren't big multi-unit buildings. Where in Alexandria do you believe such buildings exist?

Well there are already tons of duplexes. Once you get to a triplex you are effectively talking about a town house to already tons of those. So it’s really 4-6 plexes wedged in between SFH on narrow streets with one side of street parking only near metros (Del Ray/Rosemount/GW Park). I mean, sure, they could pop up elsewhere but that’s the most likely location.

If there are already tons of duplexes, then they're not exotic, and nobody will get in a panic about allowing more property owners to build duplexes in places where property owners are currently not allowed to build duplexes. That's great news!

Actually I don’t think you would get nearly as much protest if you stuck to duplexes. Or even triplexes if room and parking allowed. But (and I guess we will know for sure tomorrow) we are probably talking about allowing 4-6 plexes. And all those nice, afforded garden apartments will get demolished for bonus height density with significantly reduced parking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But in the City of Alexandria, right now, where is the crisis? Where are the droves of Residents (the Council's constituency) that are in "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger" over housing? Unfortunately financial inequities exist, and they always will even in countries purporting to be socialist / communist (look at the immigrant populations in Sweden and France). Alexandria need not destroy itself so DINKs can buy Del Ray townhouses or the Hill staffer can rent an apartment in Potomac Yard. Weirdly, there are plenty of apartments available in the West End - there are 46 units available right now at The Sherwood at Southern Towers, so they are at 89% occupancy. Right --- that developer who will make a cool million knocking down that perfectly good SFH to build three townhouses doesn't get a dime if we just encourage occupancy of the existing housing stock. So it is a crisis of not getting the house one wants or thinks they deserve - what if one wants a SFH, do they not deserve that?

The idea here seems to be that there is no housing crisis if vacant units are available. But there are always going to be vacant rental units available, just like there are always going to be units available for sale. People move in, people move out, people die, people combine households, people separate households...

Also, let's look at those units at The Sherwood at Southern Towers.

391 sf studio, 7 available, starting from $1498/month
514 sf studio, 10 available, starting from $1499/month
653 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 1 available, starting from $1690/month
721 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 8 available, starting from $1678/month
725 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 10 available, starting from $1755/month
884 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 2 available, starting from $2238/month
928 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 4 available, starting from $2290/month
1450 sf 2 BR/2 BA, 2 available, starting from $3013/month
1250 sf 3 BR/2 BA, 1 available, starting from $3002/month

So I guess you are trying to say these rents are outrageous and unaffordable ?

In reality, these rents aren’t too far off from the affordable housing rents offered by the City. Btw the City updates the list monthly.

https://www.alexandriava.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/AUGUST%202023%20CAU%20Monthly%20Report%2008-03-2023.FINALTOUSE.pdf

And from your other example income of $57k is achievable if there are 2 working full time adults in the household. What then happens is they will often take in other relatives to help with the rent and no they don’t add them to the lease.

How many working full time adults should live in a 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment?

2 adults is the usual max. You might be shocked to know but many people in the US live in 1 Br apts. There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bad and it doesn’t mean the people living in them are “less than” though apparently it dies in your eyes

Fine, 2 adults in the 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment that's affordable with a $57,000 gross income. Now, where should their children live? And where should the other relatives live whom they have taken in to help with the rent?

This proposal will not correct that issue unless you are talking about bonus height density. Most of the housing that will come out of this proposal will not be affordable. Rather, proponents argue, its existence will one day relieve pressure on the median and above median income markets, bringing down rent across the board.

The problem with this argument is that this area will continue to remain popular based on its proximity to DC and employers.

They also argue their current infrastructure/school projects will prepare the area for future needs. But they also continuously use old assumptions to determine future need. For example, they say new apartments are not a primary source for school kids historically. But if their argument is that SFHs are going to become unaffordable, then at some point those new apartments will become a source for school kids.

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing that adding housing supply won't change the supply-demand curve. The basic facts are:

1. there's a housing shortage
2. more housing will help alleviate the housing shortage
3. some people are highly motivated to assert that fact 1 and fact 2 are not facts

My post wasn’t meant to imply 1 and 2 aren’t facts. Simply that there are factors that may mitigate the intended impact, potentially significantly. I don’t think construction of new hosing via 3-6 plexes or bonus height density will outweigh population pressures for decades. The lending environment is pretty unfavorable right now. Some people are also highly motivated to simplify complex scenarios and bury unintended impacts by attacking those who raise them as opposed to addressing their arguments.

I was just noticing there is a ton of land along the George Washington Parkway that could be sold to developers for housing. The National Mall has lots of flat, open space. Fort Ward also has lots of space, don’t mind the historical significance and past. This. Is. A. Crisis.

Or we could allow developers to build 2-6 unit buildings where they are currently only allowed to build 1-unit buildings.

Serious question: Who is the target market for those 2 to 6 unit buildings? Are they not available elsewhere in Alexandria?

People who want to live in multi-unit buildings that aren't big multi-unit buildings. Where in Alexandria do you believe such buildings exist?

Well there are already tons of duplexes. Once you get to a triplex you are effectively talking about a town house to already tons of those. So it’s really 4-6 plexes wedged in between SFH on narrow streets with one side of street parking only near metros (Del Ray/Rosemount/GW Park). I mean, sure, they could pop up elsewhere but that’s the most likely location.

If there are already tons of duplexes, then they're not exotic, and nobody will get in a panic about allowing more property owners to build duplexes in places where property owners are currently not allowed to build duplexes. That's great news!

Actually I don’t think you would get nearly as much protest if you stuck to duplexes. Or even triplexes if room and parking allowed. But (and I guess we will know for sure tomorrow) we are probably talking about allowing 4-6 plexes. And all those nice, afforded garden apartments will get demolished for bonus height density with significantly reduced parking.

Duplexes: ok.
Triplexes: ok-ish.
Fourplexes: HELL ON EARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But in the City of Alexandria, right now, where is the crisis? Where are the droves of Residents (the Council's constituency) that are in "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger" over housing? Unfortunately financial inequities exist, and they always will even in countries purporting to be socialist / communist (look at the immigrant populations in Sweden and France). Alexandria need not destroy itself so DINKs can buy Del Ray townhouses or the Hill staffer can rent an apartment in Potomac Yard. Weirdly, there are plenty of apartments available in the West End - there are 46 units available right now at The Sherwood at Southern Towers, so they are at 89% occupancy. Right --- that developer who will make a cool million knocking down that perfectly good SFH to build three townhouses doesn't get a dime if we just encourage occupancy of the existing housing stock. So it is a crisis of not getting the house one wants or thinks they deserve - what if one wants a SFH, do they not deserve that?

The idea here seems to be that there is no housing crisis if vacant units are available. But there are always going to be vacant rental units available, just like there are always going to be units available for sale. People move in, people move out, people die, people combine households, people separate households...

Also, let's look at those units at The Sherwood at Southern Towers.

391 sf studio, 7 available, starting from $1498/month
514 sf studio, 10 available, starting from $1499/month
653 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 1 available, starting from $1690/month
721 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 8 available, starting from $1678/month
725 sf 1 BR/1 BA, 10 available, starting from $1755/month
884 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 2 available, starting from $2238/month
928 sf 2 BR/1 BA, 4 available, starting from $2290/month
1450 sf 2 BR/2 BA, 2 available, starting from $3013/month
1250 sf 3 BR/2 BA, 1 available, starting from $3002/month

So I guess you are trying to say these rents are outrageous and unaffordable ?

In reality, these rents aren’t too far off from the affordable housing rents offered by the City. Btw the City updates the list monthly.

https://www.alexandriava.gov/sites/default/files/2023-08/AUGUST%202023%20CAU%20Monthly%20Report%2008-03-2023.FINALTOUSE.pdf

And from your other example income of $57k is achievable if there are 2 working full time adults in the household. What then happens is they will often take in other relatives to help with the rent and no they don’t add them to the lease.

How many working full time adults should live in a 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment?

2 adults is the usual max. You might be shocked to know but many people in the US live in 1 Br apts. There is nothing wrong with it and it’s not bad and it doesn’t mean the people living in them are “less than” though apparently it dies in your eyes

Fine, 2 adults in the 595 sf 1 BR/1 BA apartment that's affordable with a $57,000 gross income. Now, where should their children live? And where should the other relatives live whom they have taken in to help with the rent?

This proposal will not correct that issue unless you are talking about bonus height density. Most of the housing that will come out of this proposal will not be affordable. Rather, proponents argue, its existence will one day relieve pressure on the median and above median income markets, bringing down rent across the board.

The problem with this argument is that this area will continue to remain popular based on its proximity to DC and employers.

They also argue their current infrastructure/school projects will prepare the area for future needs. But they also continuously use old assumptions to determine future need. For example, they say new apartments are not a primary source for school kids historically. But if their argument is that SFHs are going to become unaffordable, then at some point those new apartments will become a source for school kids.

Yeah, I'm tired of hearing that adding housing supply won't change the supply-demand curve. The basic facts are:

1. there's a housing shortage
2. more housing will help alleviate the housing shortage
3. some people are highly motivated to assert that fact 1 and fact 2 are not facts

My post wasn’t meant to imply 1 and 2 aren’t facts. Simply that there are factors that may mitigate the intended impact, potentially significantly. I don’t think construction of new hosing via 3-6 plexes or bonus height density will outweigh population pressures for decades. The lending environment is pretty unfavorable right now. Some people are also highly motivated to simplify complex scenarios and bury unintended impacts by attacking those who raise them as opposed to addressing their arguments.

I was just noticing there is a ton of land along the George Washington Parkway that could be sold to developers for housing. The National Mall has lots of flat, open space. Fort Ward also has lots of space, don’t mind the historical significance and past. This. Is. A. Crisis.

Or we could allow developers to build 2-6 unit buildings where they are currently only allowed to build 1-unit buildings.

Serious question: Who is the target market for those 2 to 6 unit buildings? Are they not available elsewhere in Alexandria?

People who want to live in multi-unit buildings that aren't big multi-unit buildings. Where in Alexandria do you believe such buildings exist?

Well there are already tons of duplexes. Once you get to a triplex you are effectively talking about a town house to already tons of those. So it’s really 4-6 plexes wedged in between SFH on narrow streets with one side of street parking only near metros (Del Ray/Rosemount/GW Park). I mean, sure, they could pop up elsewhere but that’s the most likely location.

If there are already tons of duplexes, then they're not exotic, and nobody will get in a panic about allowing more property owners to build duplexes in places where property owners are currently not allowed to build duplexes. That's great news!

Actually I don’t think you would get nearly as much protest if you stuck to duplexes. Or even triplexes if room and parking allowed. But (and I guess we will know for sure tomorrow) we are probably talking about allowing 4-6 plexes. And all those nice, afforded garden apartments will get demolished for bonus height density with significantly reduced parking.

Duplexes: ok.
Triplexes: ok-ish.
Fourplexes: HELL ON EARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111

Look, I don’t live in Del Ray so it’s not going to impact me. But most lots aren’t wide enough for a triplex so realistically we are probably talking about a duplex v. a 4-plex. That a lot more people and cars on narrow streets with parking on one side. And I know we all want people to ditch cars but realistically most people in those areas have two even when they metro to work.

But this is what I meant about about not being able to discuss meaningful nuances. And this is why every conversation will break down on this topic, because people like you are so stringent you cannot even get reasonable people on board.

And it’s why you and council don’t want to make this an election issue. It’s easier to fast track it and treat anyone with any concerns like a NIMBY jerk.