FCPS High School Poverty and Enrollment

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are we aiming for socialism? Everyone monetarily equal? Last I checked USA was a market democratic economy.

Written unironically in a *public school* forum.



Never change, DCUM.

[Anonymous]

If you want to change demographics and boundaries let’s also consider getting rid of IB. As long as parents can transfer out of poor IB schools to wealthier AP schools with a stronger, more flexible academic program, just changing the boundaries won’t accomplish very much. A cynic would say FCPS leaves IB at some of these schools precisely because it’s an escape valve.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP - the simple fact is that the gap between certain neighboring schools in FCPS has become so large that the prospect of boundary changes is essentially off the table.

West Springfield - Lewis - not going to happen. Langley - Herndon - not going to happen. Woodson - Annandale - not going to happen.

And then you have West Potomac and Mount Vernon - it could have happened. A boundary change made perfect sense. Extra space at Mount Vernon and too many students at West Potomac. Both schools have a pretty high F/R lunch rate, but West Potomac's is a bit lower and it has a better reputation (and AP courses). If they didn't change those boundaries, you better believe they are never going to make those other changes.

Up until 2000, maybe 2005, you could probably have made any of those changes. Parents would have grumbled but would have sucked it up and moved on. Now it would implode parents' minds.

Let it implode parents’ minds! No one should feel entitled to attend a particular school. The School Board wastes taxpayer money by adding on to “good” schools while other schools have plenty of space. They promote “equity” but have no actual intention of doing anything to resolve the situation or upset the status quo. They just want to keep their Board seat and maybe move up to higher office. Meanwhile our taxes continue to increase while many of our schools stagnate or decline.

If you pay premium to live in jurisdiction for particular school, you should feel entitlement.

If the border change to problem school housing value go down.

But conversely wouldn’t housing values go up in some areas if less poverty was concentrated in those schools?

But the amount wouldn’t be equal. The drop in one house and rise in another wouldn’t be equal partly because the surrounding areas don’t offer the same type of benefit/amenities.

The areas where you’re claiming values would drop if there was a change in school assignment would still have other amenities, and the areas that would have better amenities (i.e., schools) would see an increase in values.

Do you really think that people who paid a premium price to live in a "good" school district would accept a boundary adjustment without taking some other action?

They’d huff and puff and some would even move, but then they’d get over it. We should not change boundaries just to transfer wealth among families but neither should we avoid changing boundaries just because some rich people might make a stink.

Maybe, just maybe, the SB should ask themselves why people are not sending their kids to the struggling schools. Why do you think boundary adjustments would change that?

One big reason is that it’s an open secret which schools get treated by the School Board as pariahs.

It's an open secret that some schools offer terrible outcomes. Pariah or not, no one avoids McLean because Tholen prefers Langley because McLean is still a good school. The same can't be said for Lewis or Mt Vernon

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you want to change demographics and boundaries let’s also consider getting rid of IB. As long as parents can transfer out of poor IB schools to wealthier AP schools with a stronger, more flexible academic program, just changing the boundaries won’t accomplish very much. A cynic would say FCPS leaves IB at some of these schools precisely because it’s an escape valve.

More kids go to private school than pupil place outside of Mt Vernon, especially if you consider the military kids going to West Springfield. You could add AP, but unless you can get the school to focus on the kids who would be taking those AP courses, parents will still send their kids to Ireton or SSSAS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you want to change demographics and boundaries let’s also consider getting rid of IB. As long as parents can transfer out of poor IB schools to wealthier AP schools with a stronger, more flexible academic program, just changing the boundaries won’t accomplish very much. A cynic would say FCPS leaves IB at some of these schools precisely because it’s an escape valve.

I have searched for the pupil placement information regarding this--but have trouble finding it. I know it is available somewhere. Could someone post it?

FWIW, I agree with this suggestion. It might not solve the problem, but it certainly could help.

[Anonymous]

So tired of the poor people

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you want to change demographics and boundaries let’s also consider getting rid of IB. As long as parents can transfer out of poor IB schools to wealthier AP schools with a stronger, more flexible academic program, just changing the boundaries won’t accomplish very much. A cynic would say FCPS leaves IB at some of these schools precisely because it’s an escape valve.

I have searched for the pupil placement information regarding this--but have trouble finding it. I know it is available somewhere. Could someone post it?

FWIW, I agree with this suggestion. It might not solve the problem, but it certainly could help.

Have at it. https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/fcps.fts/viz/SY2022-23StudentTransfersDashboard/ReadMe?publish=yes Lake Braddock, Hayfield, Edison were the only schools gaining more students than they lost through transfers.

[Anonymous]

Can someone explain why AP is preferred over IB?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - the simple fact is that the gap between certain neighboring schools in FCPS has become so large that the prospect of boundary changes is essentially off the table.

West Springfield - Lewis - not going to happen. Langley - Herndon - not going to happen. Woodson - Annandale - not going to happen.

And then you have West Potomac and Mount Vernon - it could have happened. A boundary change made perfect sense. Extra space at Mount Vernon and too many students at West Potomac. Both schools have a pretty high F/R lunch rate, but West Potomac's is a bit lower and it has a better reputation (and AP courses). If they didn't change those boundaries, you better believe they are never going to make those other changes.

Up until 2000, maybe 2005, you could probably have made any of those changes. Parents would have grumbled but would have sucked it up and moved on. Now it would implode parents' minds.

Let it implode parents’ minds! No one should feel entitled to attend a particular school. The School Board wastes taxpayer money by adding on to “good” schools while other schools have plenty of space. They promote “equity” but have no actual intention of doing anything to resolve the situation or upset the status quo. They just want to keep their Board seat and maybe move up to higher office. Meanwhile our taxes continue to increase while many of our schools stagnate or decline.

If you pay premium to live in jurisdiction for particular school, you should feel entitlement.

If the border change to problem school housing value go down.

But conversely wouldn’t housing values go up in some areas if less poverty was concentrated in those schools?

But the amount wouldn’t be equal. The drop in one house and rise in another wouldn’t be equal partly because the surrounding areas don’t offer the same type of benefit/amenities.

The areas where you’re claiming values would drop if there was a change in school assignment would still have other amenities, and the areas that would have better amenities (i.e., schools) would see an increase in values.

Do you really think that people who paid a premium price to live in a "good" school district would accept a boundary adjustment without taking some other action?

They’d huff and puff and some would even move, but then they’d get over it. We should not change boundaries just to transfer wealth among families but neither should we avoid changing boundaries just because some rich people might make a stink.

Maybe, just maybe, the SB should ask themselves why people are not sending their kids to the struggling schools. Why do you think boundary adjustments would change that?

One big reason is that it’s an open secret which schools get treated by the School Board as pariahs.

It's an open secret that some schools offer terrible outcomes. Pariah or not, no one avoids McLean because Tholen prefers Langley because McLean is still a good school. The same can't be said for Lewis or Mt Vernon

Pretty horrible statement. Some schools, such as Mount Vernon and Lewis, have a much bigger challenge than McLean or Langley. The students are not starting from the same place. The school and teachers are not bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain why AP is preferred over IB?

I'm someone who prefers IB over AP for its instructional quality, so take what I say from that perspective. IB is more comprehensive and has extras outside of the classes (e.g., a major research paper, service hours) to get the diploma, so some people really prefer it, but others don't. I think IB provides better preparation for rigorous college work.

In FCPS, there are opponents to IB because it was put in some high schools that are high poverty and it becomes a route for people to pupil place to a better school based on a preference for AP which then continues to weaken the high poverty school (I agree with this critique). Also, while you can take IB courses piecemeal like AP courses, participation in the full IB diploma is fairly low at some schools. (But really not any lower than the amount of people taking the full suite of AP courses either so I think this is kind of a false critique).

On DCUM, there are a couple of frequent posters who hate IB, bring it up all the time, and make it their "thing" on here, so I think that tilts the discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain why AP is preferred over IB?

I'm someone who prefers IB over AP for its instructional quality, so take what I say from that perspective. IB is more comprehensive and has extras outside of the classes (e.g., a major research paper, service hours) to get the diploma, so some people really prefer it, but others don't. I think IB provides better preparation for rigorous college work.

In FCPS, there are opponents to IB because it was put in some high schools that are high poverty and it becomes a route for people to pupil place to a better school based on a preference for AP which then continues to weaken the high poverty school (I agree with this critique). Also, while you can take IB courses piecemeal like AP courses, participation in the full IB diploma is fairly low at some schools. (But really not any lower than the amount of people taking the full suite of AP courses either so I think this is kind of a false critique).

On DCUM, there are a couple of frequent posters who hate IB, bring it up all the time, and make it their "thing" on here, so I think that tilts the discussion.

Adding onto this - I have kids at an FCPS IB HS. The biggest issue with IB is that very few colleges reward IB classes unless the student also sits for the comparable AP exam. And you don't necessarily get the IB bump in college admissions since you don't have the IB diploma until HS graduation. It's a lot more work than the piecemeal AP approach, and for little to no reward.

That said, I agree that the full IB program is better preparation for college, but it's very hard to justify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain why AP is preferred over IB?

I'm someone who prefers IB over AP for its instructional quality, so take what I say from that perspective. IB is more comprehensive and has extras outside of the classes (e.g., a major research paper, service hours) to get the diploma, so some people really prefer it, but others don't. I think IB provides better preparation for rigorous college work.

In FCPS, there are opponents to IB because it was put in some high schools that are high poverty and it becomes a route for people to pupil place to a better school based on a preference for AP which then continues to weaken the high poverty school (I agree with this critique). Also, while you can take IB courses piecemeal like AP courses, participation in the full IB diploma is fairly low at some schools. (But really not any lower than the amount of people taking the full suite of AP courses either so I think this is kind of a false critique).

On DCUM, there are a couple of frequent posters who hate IB, bring it up all the time, and make it their "thing" on here, so I think that tilts the discussion.

Adding onto this - I have kids at an FCPS IB HS. The biggest issue with IB is that very few colleges reward IB classes unless the student also sits for the comparable AP exam. And you don't necessarily get the IB bump in college admissions since you don't have the IB diploma until HS graduation. It's a lot more work than the piecemeal AP approach, and for little to no reward.

That said, I agree that the full IB program is better preparation for college, but it's very hard to justify.

The issues with the IB program are that for the very strongest students, it limits what they can pursue.
-calculus-based physics is not an option. AP offers both calculus and non-calculus based options.
-you are only allowed to take HL exams at the end of your senior year, while you can take AP exams such as biology, calculus BC, chemistry, etc. at the end of your junior year (or earlier, for a small number of students). This becomes especially awkward for students who take calculus their junior year.
-the IB diploma requires students to take 3 HL exams and 3 SL exams. You may be able to take 4 HL exams and 2 SL exams, but absolutely not more than that. In contrast, a very strong AP student could take more than 4 of the hardest AP classes.

For students who do only a few AP courses, the IB program may not be that different. But for the students who wish to have the most challenging high school experience, they will be able to pursue more subjects at a higher level with AP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - the simple fact is that the gap between certain neighboring schools in FCPS has become so large that the prospect of boundary changes is essentially off the table.

West Springfield - Lewis - not going to happen. Langley - Herndon - not going to happen. Woodson - Annandale - not going to happen.

And then you have West Potomac and Mount Vernon - it could have happened. A boundary change made perfect sense. Extra space at Mount Vernon and too many students at West Potomac. Both schools have a pretty high F/R lunch rate, but West Potomac's is a bit lower and it has a better reputation (and AP courses). If they didn't change those boundaries, you better believe they are never going to make those other changes.

Up until 2000, maybe 2005, you could probably have made any of those changes. Parents would have grumbled but would have sucked it up and moved on. Now it would implode parents' minds.

Let it implode parents’ minds! No one should feel entitled to attend a particular school. The School Board wastes taxpayer money by adding on to “good” schools while other schools have plenty of space. They promote “equity” but have no actual intention of doing anything to resolve the situation or upset the status quo. They just want to keep their Board seat and maybe move up to higher office. Meanwhile our taxes continue to increase while many of our schools stagnate or decline.

If you pay premium to live in jurisdiction for particular school, you should feel entitlement.

If the border change to problem school housing value go down.

Everyone pays the same rate.

Yes. But, funny how that works. House value goes up: taxes go up. So, while everyone may pay the same "rate" they certainly pay different amounts. Sometimes, dramatically different.

+1
I honestly can't believe this has to be explained to the PP.

That’s most idiotic. Everyone does pay the same rate. The total amount does not determine whether you pay a premium. By that thinking anyone in “lesser” schools who live in the at least the equivalent to a residential property in the Langley pyramid is paying premium and should be entitled to go to the best school in the county no matter where they are located.

PP should be charged more their entitled existence.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Langley 3%
Herndon 50%

These two pyramids are right next to each other.

+1
Not to mention, voters in Herndon are allowing the policies that create these poverty zones. You get what you vote for.

Ummm … Fairfax County voters have created a lot of the problem. Some place has to step in. The sh!t really hits the fan though when it comes to schooling and suddenly everyone becomes conservative. Fairfax County is a so-called sanctuary yet doesn’t have a real solution for schools.

"Voting Blue No Matter Who" is the problem. But unfortunately, many of the people complaining will never actually change the way they vote.

Can you point out to how policies in red states or counties deal with the issue? Is there less poverty? Less of an achievement gap? Less undocumented immigrants? Give examples.

I recently visited family from a very red state. Not quite Alabama, but ruby red.

Their kid goes to school in a large public school district with similar demographics to FCPS. Here are a few things I noticed that are different than FCPS;

There are multiple school districts in the county, not just one mammoth school district. This allows school districts to tailor rapidly to their unique nedds, from snow days to calendars to curriculum and enrichment.

That school district is the 2nd largest one in the suburban county, with 4 high schools.
The largest school district has only 5 high schools. A handful have 2 high schools. Most diatricts have just 1 high school.

There are no split feeders in that city. The focus is on neighborhood schools, with the approach that a smaller, local community and parents know what is best for the children of the community.

However, the special school district is a separate, joint district that includes all county and city schools. The special school district provides all in school specialists required by FAPE, and also all immersion schools for the highly disabled students, respite care for parents and a separate dedicated school for the severely emotionally disturbed kids who cannot function in a regular school. This approach ensures the most efficient use of special ed funds, and also means that FAPE needs are met equally no matter where a student attends school in that city or county.

At their kids' elementary school, the class sizes ranged from 12 for the smallest classes (kindergarten and some of the special classes) to 22 students for the "big" classes. One of their kids was talking about how their class was "huge" last year. It was 21 kids.

Because the focus is on localized control across the entire red state, each school district is able to prioritize what is important to their community. For my family's community, their district prioritizes smaller classses in elementary school.

FCPS is too big, and fails to meet the needs of many. It needs to be broken into smaller, separate districts, with one county wide special school district.

Their red state focus on localizing control of schools as much as possible, and using larger systems only when effective and necessary, is a much better approach to schools than our behemoth blue county approach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are we aiming for socialism? Everyone monetarily equal? Last I checked USA was a market democratic economy.

You are the problem. Why are you even associating public education with wealth? So only the wealthy deserve good public schools? Absolutely terrible logic and pure selfishness. And yet you'll probably find someone else to blame for all of America's problems with youth and K-12 education.

You paid to live in an unincorporated area of Fairfax County. Go live in Falls Church City if you want to prevent potential movement from a school.