Why is this board relentlessly focused on ROI?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone I know who works in medicine, consulting, corporate law, and investment banking is miserable and burnt out.

There are so many careers out there.

And even more likely to be "burnt out" if they were forced into those careers by their parents

Everyone you know in these jobs is burned out? Very doubtful or you sample is too small. Focusing on biglaw which is what I know best, not all that many are actually burned out; many will say they are but they do not mean it; or they are burned out but they have tons of money so can nicely quit. I am not talking about associates but firm partners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone I know who works in medicine, consulting, corporate law, and investment banking is miserable and burnt out.

There are so many careers out there.

And even more likely to be "burnt out" if they were forced into those careers by their parents

Everyone you know in these jobs is burned out? Very doubtful or you sample is too small. Focusing on biglaw which is what I know best, not all that many are actually burned out; many will say they are but they do not mean it; or they are burned out but they have tons of money so can nicely quit. I am not talking about associates but firm partners.

For every 1 partner there are probably 10 associates who burnt out on Big Law...think that is the point. FWIW I know several law firm partners...they are all "content" with their jobs, but they don't think the jobs are really all that meaningful. These are not jobs you take because you love the law. You are now at a place where the $$$s are great and the work is better, though the hours can still take their toll. None are encouraging their kids to enter law because none just love going into the office everyday, but at the same time, they are not discouraging them because they know the financial rewards are there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kid is a studio art major. And I couldn’t be happier and gladly pay the tuition every semester. Kid has been selling their work since high school. Kid enjoys making art, teaching art, and the vast community it offers. I do not worry about roi, and am blessed to have a happy kid who has found their passion. Not much passion felt by those who sit in front of a screen all day.

Cool. I'm guessing you're rich, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kid is a studio art major. And I couldn’t be happier and gladly pay the tuition every semester. Kid has been selling their work since high school. Kid enjoys making art, teaching art, and the vast community it offers. I do not worry about roi, and am blessed to have a happy kid who has found their passion. Not much passion felt by those who sit in front of a screen all day.

Cool. I'm guessing you're rich, right?

Nope not at all. Though kid banks enough money that we only pay tuition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Better question is why so many people think they know what is best for other people and what they like to talk about on a a board that is for talking about things you want to talk about.

... because parental obsession with STEM and ROI is toxic for youth and for educational system.

[Anonymous]

ROI focus is also misguided in several ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a few degrees in the humanities. Teaching was one of them. It was the most thankless, low paying job. Constantly working. Dealing with discipline, parents....it sucks. I would never recommend it to my kid. My husband went into tech. He actually did have his own company for many years. But most people who start their own companies do not even up becoming Zuckerberg. Eventually, it got too difficult and was a lot of stress, and then he worked his way up through the FAANG companies and makes 500k+. It did take work and time. But overall, while there were some stresses working at those jobs, he got to work from home, could take long walks or do errands or whatever. They didn't care about how long he spent working. They just cared about results. Compared to my earning potential and choices, his were MUCH better. Yes. If you don't like programming or tech, obviously don't do it. But if you want a job with good money---doesn't have to be 500K--you could have a very chill job in programming making 150K--you can just do your job and then live your life. I went to "better" schools than my husband, but I was stupid in my choices.

Most of the doctors I know are miserable, including the ones in my family.

My family tried so hard to get me to become a lawyer, and I was young and stupid and resisted. And I may have hated being a lawyer, but this would have opened doors for me that were not opened because I went into teaching instead.

While we technically have the money to pay for college and grad school, full pay at privates would be a stretch even for us. (I am hoping that doesn't happen.) So, no. I would not pay that money for my kid to get a psychology degree or criminal justice degree or even an English degree--like mine. If they wanted to double major or minor in art, that would be fine. But I want my kid to have a degree that allows them to have a good quality of life. If they don't use it--fine. That is not an issue for me, because my kid wants to go into STEM. They are more like their dad in interests. They do like art, and I encourage it and would happy for them to continue it. But you don't need to go to college to be an artist.

I do not think your experience is the average--nor is getting advanced degrees. Only something like 30% of people even go to college in the US.

I'd argue that even if you have the ability to "full pay" at 80K, if your kid wants to major in something where the average starting salary is $30-40K and the growth potential is not high, then your kid would be better off saving that money/you give it to them when they graduate to get a jump start on life. Graduate debt free and have $150K+ to start life would be a game changer and much better use of money than paying 80K/year.

One of the things I find odd is that I understand the ROI concern for families that are very middle class or where loans will have to be taken out, etc…if you go into a low paying career in those cases you can end up in a hole it can be hard to dig out of, but many of the people spouting this concern are very well off and in a position to provide considerable help to their kids, and likely will provide considerable help to their kids. I know lots of people whose parents pay for private school or sleepaway camps, help with down payments, pass along gently used cars and so on. They will now be in a position to do this for their kids and it can provide a cushion if the kid doesn’t want to do something super lucrative.

[Anonymous]

Because if I'm paying $30k-$100k/yr for a degree, I want to make sure it's a degree they can use when they graduate.

The humanities are for minoring.

And if I'm not footing the bill, then have at it. Let them find out how fun it is to graduate $80k+ in debt for an entry-level position starting out at $35k/yr. Because that was my reality. My parents made too much for me to get much financial aid but they also didn't make enough to save for my college. I received some merit aid but not enough for a full ride. Neither parent went to college and I never had anyone telling me to pick a major that would offer the best career possibilities.

It took years, more schooling & debt, and clawing my way through to get to the level I'm at now. College friends who had more educated parents are in much better places. I fully understand why I met so many people who answered the question "what's your major?" with "my parents are making me major in Economics/Computer Science/Biology." I always felt so grateful that my parents left me along and let me pick what I wanted to study but then when it was time for my first big girl job, I started out at $28k/yr and my friends were starting out in the $50k+ range, which back then was big money.

[Anonymous]

Recession, economic turmoil, supply chain issues, global warming, gun Violence, joblessness, more pandemics are going to happen. If we are not thinking no security and ROI we would be stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kid is a studio art major. And I couldn’t be happier and gladly pay the tuition every semester. Kid has been selling their work since high school. Kid enjoys making art, teaching art, and the vast community it offers. I do not worry about roi, and am blessed to have a happy kid who has found their passion. Not much passion felt by those who sit in front of a screen all day.

Do you pay 80K a year for your kid to be an art major? If my kid wants to go to VCU to study art, which is a great program, I guess that's okay. Or if they got significant merit aid somewhere to study art. Although I would worry their skills might not translate if down the line they wanted to make more money. That's certainly what happened to me.

Some people do feel "passion" sitting in front of a screen. I'm the (ex) teacher with the husband who had his own business and has worked for a couple of the big name tech companies. My husband created his own software, created games, etc...He's working on a game now on his own time for fun. It's not for everybody, but if you like it, it's certainly more lucrative for 99% of people than art. My husband also makes the art for his games. I know two doctors who make art on their own time. One displays in galleries. It's not either/or.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"But if you have the money to save up $300k (or $160k for being full pay at a state school) for college for each kid, isn't that a testament to your own economic privilege?"

What if you don't have that amount of money saved? Contrary to your assumption, not everyone on DCUM does. But, unlike you, we don't get any financial aid, much less a full ride to an Ivy. Is it then okay in your mind to be concerned about ROI?

For someone with a (free) PhD in Psychology, you seem to lack understanding and insight into reality.

So if you don't have $160K for instate schools (which is high, as most states I've lived in you can do a good state school that is easy to get into for $25k/year currently), then you look at CC and transferring. Or you look at smaller private schools that offer great merit---if your kid is at 90% for many non-elite privates you can get 75%+ paid for with merit. So you think outside the box and find a way to get an affordable education. It can be done---but it requires you to give up the obsession with elite universities.

Where in the post did you get an obsession with elite universities?

From most DCUM posts. Just pointing out that there are plenty of ways to make college very affordable, just not along the lines of most who post in DCUM. Merit is out there at smaller universities that are not as highly ranked. If you have not been able to save enough for college. I live in a different state and our 2nd large state school (with every major under the sun available) is ranked ~200 and has an amazing honors program and total cost "all in" is $25K per year. If your kid is a good student they will likely get $3-4K in merit (my own 26ACT/3.5 UW GPA student got $3K/year).

A kid could almost fund college themselves if working hard during all breaks and part-time during the school year--as long as they have a place to live (ie with family once they turn 18). Kids can easily net $10-12K in a summer in our area (high min wage). Add in $5K for working part time during the school year and it's only $10K left---take 5.5 in federal loans and have parents hopefully help with $5k/year (or take loans). It can be done. And if you are truly not able to pay that much, then use HS duel entry and graduate HS with your AA for only the cost of books/lab fees (typically less than $500/year). Then you only need 2-3 years at the 4 year university. With planning anyone can affordably attend college.

My kid had an internship 40hrs/week from May until early August, $16/hr and only made -~8000. Unless you’re getting paid in cash or working at GS or something, what kids are making 10-12K overthe summer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why because I grew up poor. No food.

And while college is expensive it is worth every dime in my opinion. Not saying anyone needs to go to Weslyn at $70,000 or USC etc.

Perfectly fine to go to community college then state four year and then grad school or law school or med school or MS in textiles I don't care.

No substitute for opening your mind. Conservatives or MAGA do not comment on this part you are too stupid to know better.

Would I allow my kids to major in philosophy or art history nope not on my dime? But they could on theirs and I would not be mad. Because then it is a passion and they would work to make a career.

At this point we could afford any college easily we are very lucky. Education got me out of poverty. And no one can take it away.

I don't understand this. The philosophy majors I know (and I was one) have done very well, even without going to grad school. The major is rigorous and really teaches you how to think through a problem -- skills that are valued at any workplace.

Alternatively: the people major in philosophy are smarter and more curious than the norm, and underperform vis-a-vis students with the same talent who apply themselves to more practical majors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why because I grew up poor. No food.

And while college is expensive it is worth every dime in my opinion. Not saying anyone needs to go to Weslyn at $70,000 or USC etc.

Perfectly fine to go to community college then state four year and then grad school or law school or med school or MS in textiles I don't care.

No substitute for opening your mind. Conservatives or MAGA do not comment on this part you are too stupid to know better.

Would I allow my kids to major in philosophy or art history nope not on my dime? But they could on theirs and I would not be mad. Because then it is a passion and they would work to make a career.

At this point we could afford any college easily we are very lucky. Education got me out of poverty. And no one can take it away.

I don't understand this. The philosophy majors I know (and I was one) have done very well, even without going to grad school. The major is rigorous and really teaches you how to think through a problem -- skills that are valued at any workplace.

Alternatively: the people major in philosophy are smarter and more curious than the norm, and underperform vis-a-vis students with the same talent who apply themselves to more practical majors.

In my opinion, it’s fair to think about ROI, but not reasonable to crush great kids’ dreams or assume as a given that certain majors are always better for all kids.

If, say, a kid has a 4.0 UW GPA and 800s on the SATs, and is going to Columbia, that kid’s earned a chance to major in philosophy, if that’s what the kid loves.

It’s insane to push kids who are great at the humanities it so so at math to major in STEM at top schools.

And parents who haven’t ever taken a STEM class at a top school have no standing whatsoever to push kids into tough university STEM classes or complain about their kids’ T30 university STEM grades. I see parents here who probably went to some crappy school getting upset about their kids getting C’s in STEM classes at T30 schools. I doubt those parents have any idea how hard it is to pass a STEM class for majors at a T30 school. It’s fine to encourage a philosophy major to think about resume-building activities and student jobs. But it’s absurd to try to force a natural born English major to major in engineering.

Another problem is that the ROI Only parents seem to be completely oblivious to the existence of ups and downs in the job market. They obsess about CS degrees, even for kids with no interest in computers, without seeing that today’s hot degree could be tomorrow’s dog.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Do you pay 80K a year for your kid to be an art major?

Art major doesn't have to work in art field.
You take more than art classes as an art major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
My kid had an internship 40hrs/week from May until early August, $16/hr and only made -~8000. Unless you’re getting paid in cash or working at GS or something, what kids are making 10-12K overthe summer?

That's not a big difference.