Race and TJ admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What I have learned in many years of experience in Northern Virginia and TJ is this:

If you have a hard and fast selection criteria that you use and apply equally to all students - basically no matter what it is - the system will favor the parents who have the resources and motivation to fit their round kid into the square hole. And you’re going to get a huge number of kids who all have relatively the same profile because the parents figured out that “that’s the profile that works”.

No matter what racial balance that creates, it’s a negative outcome for TJ. Too many similar kids results in mental health issues.

What everyone (mostly everyone) wants is a return to the best years of TJ, to the good old days when gifted students had rigorous but not crushing classes, a peer group of innovative students, and lower pressure. The 80s and 90s, maybe?

So far, no one has any idea how to recreate that. But I think a change is a step in the right direction.

To recreate that, you'd need to return to a time when a good but not great TJ student could count on UVA as a fall back and VT as a safety. Any school comprised of kids all wanting to go to competitive colleges is going to have pressure because those kids know they have to outperform their peers to make it happen

This is absolutely FALSE. TJ students have struggled in the college admissions process in recent years not because of the increased level of competitiveness, but because they tend to be indistinguishable from one another on paper. They are all going for the same seats at the same schools, rather than going for different seats at the same schools. So say college admissions officers who visit the school, at any rate.

Bring in a class of students with a greater diversity of experiences, interests, and goals, and you’ll see stronger admit numbers from TJ.

TJ students know that if they want to go on to the kind of colleges that they expect to go on to, they will needs to be at least as good as their peers. That leads to a high pressure atmosphere. It's no different from any magnet or private school where the student body all want to go the the same type of college and all know that they will be compared against each other.

So, one of the things that you learn when you've been around TJ long enough is that a prominent student strategy for getting into elite colleges is to check out the resume/profile of TJ kids who have gotten in to the school they want and do whatever they can to mirror it. They use this strategy because it worked to get them into TJ - because of the problematic admissions process that evaluated every student by the same metrics.

It's a well-known fact at TJ that if you announce that you got into Stanford, you can expect 300-400 Facebook friends requests the next day.

But that strategy doesn't work to get into elite colleges because they're enlightened enough not to seek the exact same profile of kid for every seat. This is why they end up complaining to TJ's Student Services department that they get tons of resumes from TJ kids that all look exactly the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What I have learned in many years of experience in Northern Virginia and TJ is this:

If you have a hard and fast selection criteria that you use and apply equally to all students - basically no matter what it is - the system will favor the parents who have the resources and motivation to fit their round kid into the square hole. And you’re going to get a huge number of kids who all have relatively the same profile because the parents figured out that “that’s the profile that works”.

No matter what racial balance that creates, it’s a negative outcome for TJ. Too many similar kids results in mental health issues.

What everyone (mostly everyone) wants is a return to the best years of TJ, to the good old days when gifted students had rigorous but not crushing classes, a peer group of innovative students, and lower pressure. The 80s and 90s, maybe?

So far, no one has any idea how to recreate that. But I think a change is a step in the right direction.

To recreate that, you'd need to return to a time when a good but not great TJ student could count on UVA as a fall back and VT as a safety. Any school comprised of kids all wanting to go to competitive colleges is going to have pressure because those kids know they have to outperform their peers to make it happen

This is absolutely FALSE. TJ students have struggled in the college admissions process in recent years not because of the increased level of competitiveness, but because they tend to be indistinguishable from one another on paper. They are all going for the same seats at the same schools, rather than going for different seats at the same schools. So say college admissions officers who visit the school, at any rate.

Bring in a class of students with a greater diversity of experiences, interests, and goals, and you’ll see stronger admit numbers from TJ.

TJ students know that if they want to go on to the kind of colleges that they expect to go on to, they will needs to be at least as good as their peers. That leads to a high pressure atmosphere. It's no different from any magnet or private school where the student body all want to go the the same type of college and all know that they will be compared against each other.

So, one of the things that you learn when you've been around TJ long enough is that a prominent student strategy for getting into elite colleges is to check out the resume/profile of TJ kids who have gotten in to the school they want and do whatever they can to mirror it. They use this strategy because it worked to get them into TJ - because of the problematic admissions process that evaluated every student by the same metrics.

It's a well-known fact at TJ that if you announce that you got into Stanford, you can expect 300-400 Facebook friends requests the next day.

But that strategy doesn't work to get into elite colleges because they're enlightened enough not to seek the exact same profile of kid for every seat. This is why they end up complaining to TJ's Student Services department that they get tons of resumes from TJ kids that all look exactly the same.

This.

You know all of those fake and lame non-profits started by TJ students? There was a kid in the class of 2017 (maybe 2016?) that got into Harvard with middle of the road grades for TJ. He talked up starting a non-profit as a golden ticket. It caught on and actually worked for a few years. It didn’t work as well for the latest TJ class and that’s why you are seeing fewer fake non-profits crop up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gentle reminder:

There are some families whose kids didn’t prep, and have never prepped for anything, even the SAT/ACT.

+1

+2. Just so that the enlightened don’t lapse into “everyone at TJ owes admission to prep”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Federal court found with proof that it’s discrimination against Asians. Can anyone on this forum give process that there was No discrimination and that federal court is wrong. Evidence and facts are appreciated here.

No one is arguing about the evidence, the question is whether or not the law was correctly applied. If this case stands, desecration is de facto unconstitutional because it will always have a disproportionate effect on whatever race is dominant in the institution being desegregated.

I don't think most of the complaints are targeted towards boards decision to improve the admission process. It is the specific targeted changes and the manor in which the board pushed the changes. Its inevitable that any improvements will negatively effect the dominant group and thats not an issue here. Contrary to what many are interpreting, this is not what people are angry about.

Just get rid of the other experience factors (a.k.a. free bonus points), remove attending school based quotas and everyone will be fine even if it ends up with lower asians. If the board insists on quotas, keep it a school pyramid level or at least do it based on 'base' middle schools so it won't discriminate against AAP ex: allocate half of the seats equally among each school pyramid and keep the other half in an open pool for all. Very few will complain about it.

Personally, I would like to have a tricky to prep test like olympiads, teacher referrals and gpa combined into a relatively difficult admission process. But apparently, this would lead to even more asians than we currently have, so it was a no go from the start. Oh well

So.... no. The bottom line is that you have two groups that are at odds with one another:

1) FCPS and the School Board, which, for better or for worse, sees a problem with the composition of the school across whatever metrics

2) A "parent group" supported by dark money that is seeking to use TJ as a test case to invalidate the idea of affirmative action in all academic areas.

There are individuals (presumably, like you) who profess to be more worried with how things were done than what was done, but the reality is that the major thrust behind C4TJ are people who want to preserve their ability to use their resources and enthusiasm for TJ to give their children advantages in the admissions process.

They want an admissions process that is completely transparent and objective so that they can mold their children to check the respective boxes - which invariably results in a student body that is very similar to one another, perhaps along racial lines but certainly in terms of goals, ambitions, and interests.

I am also one of those who is worried about the direction TJ is going in order to "punish" prep centers, but they don't realize that they are also punishing the specific kids as well that fall into targeted categories even if they are not being prepped. There are 500 kids in AAP alone in Carson in each grade and more than half of them apply to TJ and even if you assume half (which is high) are prepped, then the other half are facing increased competition by just being there. Even the kids who are prepped, they may be inherently smart and do not deserve the negative treatment.

No matter how you design, it is very difficult to avoid prepping. Even if fully focussed on GPA, there is a lot of after school enrichment, personal tutoring that puts some kids ahead of the curve. Some kids interact better with teachers and some don't which affect referrals. Some kids are have much better writing skills than technical/stem knowledge who have a leg up in the game over shy by real geeky kid. The point here is, it is almost impossible to find true hidden talent unless you closely interact with a person on a regular basis and if you are trying to use the new admission process to find those, then you are out of luck.

So, in the end, I am worried that TJ is being slowly watered down. Sure, it might still be better than other base high schools, but may not be a hyper competitive environment like before. It will not be much different from any AP/Honors class. If the kid maintains relatively good gpa and ability to write good sentences, its all that is needed to get into TJ, especially if the kid is not from Carson, Longfellow or Rocky Run. Even at these 3 schools, new admission criteria may not clearly make smart STEM focussed kids stand out from others who just study for grades. So, over time, the environment at TJ may mellow down, while other base schools start to compete with TJ. If this is the intended goal for TJ, then there is nothing much to argue here.

Here's my question. The bulk of the kids used to come from the 3 center schools. Aren't the high schools that are the natural feeders going to outperform TJ because they will be full of the top applicants now vs TJ with kids from every geographic region.

To put it another way, if I was a parent of a kid at one of the 3 centers why would I want to go to TJ vs the natural HS feeder which will now have more of the center folks as classmates vs TJ

So the counter to this argument SHOULD be that the admissions process will identify the highest performing center students for selection. Remember, it’s not like the centers are only getting 1.5% in. Carson still got 40+ kids and Longfellow still got 30+.

Now - I think that the admissions process probably needs one more input - teacher recs - to feel confident that those top kids are being identified. But kids 50-80 from Carson… those kids, their base school, AND TJ are all better served by those kids going to their base. It’s a no brainer.

This is fine, but why can’t you do this with out quotas and free bonus points? Why is so difficult to come up with a selection criteria that applies to all equally? The current process says to these kids, we know you can’t compete at the same level, so will add 100-300 bonus points to your achievement, so you will be at the same level as other kids.

What I have learned in many years of experience in Northern Virginia and TJ is this:

If you have a hard and fast selection criteria that you use and apply equally to all students - basically no matter what it is - the system will favor the parents who have the resources and motivation to fit their round kid into the square hole. And you’re going to get a huge number of kids who all have relatively the same profile because the parents figured out that “that’s the profile that works”.

No matter what racial balance that creates, it’s a negative outcome for TJ. Too many similar kids results in mental health issues.

Are you saying most kids at TJ aren't suited to a STEM heavy curriculum? What's your proof of this assertion? Present either facts or rational basis that kids who are better off at studying something else are forced to focus on STEM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What I have learned in many years of experience in Northern Virginia and TJ is this:

If you have a hard and fast selection criteria that you use and apply equally to all students - basically no matter what it is - the system will favor the parents who have the resources and motivation to fit their round kid into the square hole. And you’re going to get a huge number of kids who all have relatively the same profile because the parents figured out that “that’s the profile that works”.

No matter what racial balance that creates, it’s a negative outcome for TJ. Too many similar kids results in mental health issues.

What everyone (mostly everyone) wants is a return to the best years of TJ, to the good old days when gifted students had rigorous but not crushing classes, a peer group of innovative students, and lower pressure. The 80s and 90s, maybe?

So far, no one has any idea how to recreate that. But I think a change is a step in the right direction.

To recreate that, you'd need to return to a time when a good but not great TJ student could count on UVA as a fall back and VT as a safety. Any school comprised of kids all wanting to go to competitive colleges is going to have pressure because those kids know they have to outperform their peers to make it happen

Oh totally, a friend of mine who is a high-level executive with the entertainment industry set up one of these for his kids. Seemed to offset their mediocre grades...

This is absolutely FALSE. TJ students have struggled in the college admissions process in recent years not because of the increased level of competitiveness, but because they tend to be indistinguishable from one another on paper. They are all going for the same seats at the same schools, rather than going for different seats at the same schools. So say college admissions officers who visit the school, at any rate.

Bring in a class of students with a greater diversity of experiences, interests, and goals, and you’ll see stronger admit numbers from TJ.

TJ students know that if they want to go on to the kind of colleges that they expect to go on to, they will needs to be at least as good as their peers. That leads to a high pressure atmosphere. It's no different from any magnet or private school where the student body all want to go the the same type of college and all know that they will be compared against each other.

So, one of the things that you learn when you've been around TJ long enough is that a prominent student strategy for getting into elite colleges is to check out the resume/profile of TJ kids who have gotten in to the school they want and do whatever they can to mirror it. They use this strategy because it worked to get them into TJ - because of the problematic admissions process that evaluated every student by the same metrics.

It's a well-known fact at TJ that if you announce that you got into Stanford, you can expect 300-400 Facebook friends requests the next day.

But that strategy doesn't work to get into elite colleges because they're enlightened enough not to seek the exact same profile of kid for every seat. This is why they end up complaining to TJ's Student Services department that they get tons of resumes from TJ kids that all look exactly the same.

This.

You know all of those fake and lame non-profits started by TJ students? There was a kid in the class of 2017 (maybe 2016?) that got into Harvard with middle of the road grades for TJ. He talked up starting a non-profit as a golden ticket. It caught on and actually worked for a few years. It didn’t work as well for the latest TJ class and that’s why you are seeing fewer fake non-profits crop up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Federal court found with proof that it’s discrimination against Asians. Can anyone on this forum give process that there was No discrimination and that federal court is wrong. Evidence and facts are appreciated here.

No one is arguing about the evidence, the question is whether or not the law was correctly applied. If this case stands, desecration is de facto unconstitutional because it will always have a disproportionate effect on whatever race is dominant in the institution being desegregated.

I don't think most of the complaints are targeted towards boards decision to improve the admission process. It is the specific targeted changes and the manor in which the board pushed the changes. Its inevitable that any improvements will negatively effect the dominant group and thats not an issue here. Contrary to what many are interpreting, this is not what people are angry about.

Just get rid of the other experience factors (a.k.a. free bonus points), remove attending school based quotas and everyone will be fine even if it ends up with lower asians. If the board insists on quotas, keep it a school pyramid level or at least do it based on 'base' middle schools so it won't discriminate against AAP ex: allocate half of the seats equally among each school pyramid and keep the other half in an open pool for all. Very few will complain about it.

Personally, I would like to have a tricky to prep test like olympiads, teacher referrals and gpa combined into a relatively difficult admission process. But apparently, this would lead to even more asians than we currently have, so it was a no go from the start. Oh well

So.... no. The bottom line is that you have two groups that are at odds with one another:

1) FCPS and the School Board, which, for better or for worse, sees a problem with the composition of the school across whatever metrics

2) A "parent group" supported by dark money that is seeking to use TJ as a test case to invalidate the idea of affirmative action in all academic areas.

There are individuals (presumably, like you) who profess to be more worried with how things were done than what was done, but the reality is that the major thrust behind C4TJ are people who want to preserve their ability to use their resources and enthusiasm for TJ to give their children advantages in the admissions process.

They want an admissions process that is completely transparent and objective so that they can mold their children to check the respective boxes - which invariably results in a student body that is very similar to one another, perhaps along racial lines but certainly in terms of goals, ambitions, and interests.

I am also one of those who is worried about the direction TJ is going in order to "punish" prep centers, but they don't realize that they are also punishing the specific kids as well that fall into targeted categories even if they are not being prepped. There are 500 kids in AAP alone in Carson in each grade and more than half of them apply to TJ and even if you assume half (which is high) are prepped, then the other half are facing increased competition by just being there. Even the kids who are prepped, they may be inherently smart and do not deserve the negative treatment.

No matter how you design, it is very difficult to avoid prepping. Even if fully focussed on GPA, there is a lot of after school enrichment, personal tutoring that puts some kids ahead of the curve. Some kids interact better with teachers and some don't which affect referrals. Some kids are have much better writing skills than technical/stem knowledge who have a leg up in the game over shy by real geeky kid. The point here is, it is almost impossible to find true hidden talent unless you closely interact with a person on a regular basis and if you are trying to use the new admission process to find those, then you are out of luck.

So, in the end, I am worried that TJ is being slowly watered down. Sure, it might still be better than other base high schools, but may not be a hyper competitive environment like before. It will not be much different from any AP/Honors class. If the kid maintains relatively good gpa and ability to write good sentences, its all that is needed to get into TJ, especially if the kid is not from Carson, Longfellow or Rocky Run. Even at these 3 schools, new admission criteria may not clearly make smart STEM focussed kids stand out from others who just study for grades. So, over time, the environment at TJ may mellow down, while other base schools start to compete with TJ. If this is the intended goal for TJ, then there is nothing much to argue here.

Here's my question. The bulk of the kids used to come from the 3 center schools. Aren't the high schools that are the natural feeders going to outperform TJ because they will be full of the top applicants now vs TJ with kids from every geographic region.

To put it another way, if I was a parent of a kid at one of the 3 centers why would I want to go to TJ vs the natural HS feeder which will now have more of the center folks as classmates vs TJ

So the counter to this argument SHOULD be that the admissions process will identify the highest performing center students for selection. Remember, it’s not like the centers are only getting 1.5% in. Carson still got 40+ kids and Longfellow still got 30+.

Now - I think that the admissions process probably needs one more input - teacher recs - to feel confident that those top kids are being identified. But kids 50-80 from Carson… those kids, their base school, AND TJ are all better served by those kids going to their base. It’s a no brainer.

This is fine, but why can’t you do this with out quotas and free bonus points? Why is so difficult to come up with a selection criteria that applies to all equally? The current process says to these kids, we know you can’t compete at the same level, so will add 100-300 bonus points to your achievement, so you will be at the same level as other kids.

What I have learned in many years of experience in Northern Virginia and TJ is this:

If you have a hard and fast selection criteria that you use and apply equally to all students - basically no matter what it is - the system will favor the parents who have the resources and motivation to fit their round kid into the square hole. And you’re going to get a huge number of kids who all have relatively the same profile because the parents figured out that “that’s the profile that works”.

No matter what racial balance that creates, it’s a negative outcome for TJ. Too many similar kids results in mental health issues.

Are you saying most kids at TJ aren't suited to a STEM heavy curriculum? What's your proof of this assertion? Present either facts or rational basis that kids who are better off at studying something else are forced to focus on STEM.

DP. I wouldn't argue that they aren't suited. I would argue that they aren't any more/better suited to a STEM heavy curriculum than thousands of other kids who are just as bright and hard working, but whose parents didn't send them to prep.

I am South Asian. I have seen dozens of kids put through the prep mills, starting at a VERY early age (second grade, because AAP is crucial to TJ). Every move is planned by the parents to get their kid into TJ. These kids are far too young to show much aptitude or initiative in STEM fields, so it isn't like all these kids prepping for TJ in middle schools are there because they suddenly realized that it's their life's passion.

I know kids that I believe will be an extremely good fit for TJ (genuine passion, long-term and unique STEM goals, and sheer brilliance), but absent the sort of prep that the other kids have done for years, don't really stand a chance to distinguish themselves from the pack, or stand out in any meaningful way. Lucky for them, the school system here is good enough that they will be successful anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

What would have separated them was the evaluation of their responses to the Student Portrait Sheet questions and whether they came off as genuine or canned.

You have to remember, what parents pay for in exam prep is the ability to pass off their relatively workaday child as the very "super-genius" that you're referencing. That's a lot of why you had hundreds of students in each class who engaged in relatively few extracurricular activities at TJ but still complained of being up until 2 AM working on their physics problem sets.

I think if you account for the per-school quotas, you will find that Curie was more successful at placing students. It's a lot easier to prep kids for an essay than for a math and science test. Plus if the students are dishonest, they can claim all sorts of accomplishments in the essay. These accomplishments likely won't be checked, where they could be if it was part of the standard application.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What I have learned in many years of experience in Northern Virginia and TJ is this:

If you have a hard and fast selection criteria that you use and apply equally to all students - basically no matter what it is - the system will favor the parents who have the resources and motivation to fit their round kid into the square hole. And you’re going to get a huge number of kids who all have relatively the same profile because the parents figured out that “that’s the profile that works”.

No matter what racial balance that creates, it’s a negative outcome for TJ. Too many similar kids results in mental health issues.

What everyone (mostly everyone) wants is a return to the best years of TJ, to the good old days when gifted students had rigorous but not crushing classes, a peer group of innovative students, and lower pressure. The 80s and 90s, maybe?

So far, no one has any idea how to recreate that. But I think a change is a step in the right direction.

To recreate that, you'd need to return to a time when a good but not great TJ student could count on UVA as a fall back and VT as a safety. Any school comprised of kids all wanting to go to competitive colleges is going to have pressure because those kids know they have to outperform their peers to make it happen

This is absolutely FALSE. TJ students have struggled in the college admissions process in recent years not because of the increased level of competitiveness, but because they tend to be indistinguishable from one another on paper. They are all going for the same seats at the same schools, rather than going for different seats at the same schools. So say college admissions officers who visit the school, at any rate.

Bring in a class of students with a greater diversity of experiences, interests, and goals, and you’ll see stronger admit numbers from TJ.

Very true!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gentle reminder:

There are some families whose kids didn’t prep, and have never prepped for anything, even the SAT/ACT.

+1

+2. Just so that the enlightened don’t lapse into “everyone at TJ owes admission to prep”

I'm sure there are a few who don't but over 90% of those admitted do base upon on the data I saw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What I have learned in many years of experience in Northern Virginia and TJ is this:

If you have a hard and fast selection criteria that you use and apply equally to all students - basically no matter what it is - the system will favor the parents who have the resources and motivation to fit their round kid into the square hole. And you’re going to get a huge number of kids who all have relatively the same profile because the parents figured out that “that’s the profile that works”.

No matter what racial balance that creates, it’s a negative outcome for TJ. Too many similar kids results in mental health issues.

What everyone (mostly everyone) wants is a return to the best years of TJ, to the good old days when gifted students had rigorous but not crushing classes, a peer group of innovative students, and lower pressure. The 80s and 90s, maybe?

So far, no one has any idea how to recreate that. But I think a change is a step in the right direction.

To recreate that, you'd need to return to a time when a good but not great TJ student could count on UVA as a fall back and VT as a safety. Any school comprised of kids all wanting to go to competitive colleges is going to have pressure because those kids know they have to outperform their peers to make it happen

This is absolutely FALSE. TJ students have struggled in the college admissions process in recent years not because of the increased level of competitiveness, but because they tend to be indistinguishable from one another on paper. They are all going for the same seats at the same schools, rather than going for different seats at the same schools. So say college admissions officers who visit the school, at any rate.

Bring in a class of students with a greater diversity of experiences, interests, and goals, and you’ll see stronger admit numbers from TJ.

What complete nonsense.1. TJ is not struggling. 2 It is a top STEM school. So kids will apply for top STEM programs at college.
Good old days means more white kids getting admission/being in the majority?

1. By any reasonable measure, fewer TJ students are getting into elite schools AND the schools of their choice than they did 10, 15, 20 years ago. It's not close.

2. Being a top STEM school does not mean that all of its students need to go on to pursue STEM careers. A quality secondary STEM education can go a long way towards preparing a student for a productive and lucrative career in many other STEM-adjacent fields.

Where is your proof?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What I have learned in many years of experience in Northern Virginia and TJ is this:

If you have a hard and fast selection criteria that you use and apply equally to all students - basically no matter what it is - the system will favor the parents who have the resources and motivation to fit their round kid into the square hole. And you’re going to get a huge number of kids who all have relatively the same profile because the parents figured out that “that’s the profile that works”.

No matter what racial balance that creates, it’s a negative outcome for TJ. Too many similar kids results in mental health issues.

What everyone (mostly everyone) wants is a return to the best years of TJ, to the good old days when gifted students had rigorous but not crushing classes, a peer group of innovative students, and lower pressure. The 80s and 90s, maybe?

So far, no one has any idea how to recreate that. But I think a change is a step in the right direction.

To recreate that, you'd need to return to a time when a good but not great TJ student could count on UVA as a fall back and VT as a safety. Any school comprised of kids all wanting to go to competitive colleges is going to have pressure because those kids know they have to outperform their peers to make it happen

This is absolutely FALSE. TJ students have struggled in the college admissions process in recent years not because of the increased level of competitiveness, but because they tend to be indistinguishable from one another on paper. They are all going for the same seats at the same schools, rather than going for different seats at the same schools. So say college admissions officers who visit the school, at any rate.

Bring in a class of students with a greater diversity of experiences, interests, and goals, and you’ll see stronger admit numbers from TJ.

What complete nonsense.1. TJ is not struggling. 2 It is a top STEM school. So kids will apply for top STEM programs at college.
Good old days means more white kids getting admission/being in the majority?

1. By any reasonable measure, fewer TJ students are getting into elite schools AND the schools of their choice than they did 10, 15, 20 years ago. It's not close.

2. Being a top STEM school does not mean that all of its students need to go on to pursue STEM careers. A quality secondary STEM education can go a long way towards preparing a student for a productive and lucrative career in many other STEM-adjacent fields.

Where is your proof?

No proof. It is nonsense talk.

[Anonymous]

20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.

20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What I have learned in many years of experience in Northern Virginia and TJ is this:

If you have a hard and fast selection criteria that you use and apply equally to all students - basically no matter what it is - the system will favor the parents who have the resources and motivation to fit their round kid into the square hole. And you’re going to get a huge number of kids who all have relatively the same profile because the parents figured out that “that’s the profile that works”.

No matter what racial balance that creates, it’s a negative outcome for TJ. Too many similar kids results in mental health issues.

What everyone (mostly everyone) wants is a return to the best years of TJ, to the good old days when gifted students had rigorous but not crushing classes, a peer group of innovative students, and lower pressure. The 80s and 90s, maybe?

So far, no one has any idea how to recreate that. But I think a change is a step in the right direction.

To recreate that, you'd need to return to a time when a good but not great TJ student could count on UVA as a fall back and VT as a safety. Any school comprised of kids all wanting to go to competitive colleges is going to have pressure because those kids know they have to outperform their peers to make it happen

This is absolutely FALSE. TJ students have struggled in the college admissions process in recent years not because of the increased level of competitiveness, but because they tend to be indistinguishable from one another on paper. They are all going for the same seats at the same schools, rather than going for different seats at the same schools. So say college admissions officers who visit the school, at any rate.

Bring in a class of students with a greater diversity of experiences, interests, and goals, and you’ll see stronger admit numbers from TJ.

Very true!

Yeah, and we all know that college admission has nothing to do with legacy and racial quotas. Of course, having more white and URM students can lead to stronger admits numbers because these students benefit from the current admission trends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What I have learned in many years of experience in Northern Virginia and TJ is this:

If you have a hard and fast selection criteria that you use and apply equally to all students - basically no matter what it is - the system will favor the parents who have the resources and motivation to fit their round kid into the square hole. And you’re going to get a huge number of kids who all have relatively the same profile because the parents figured out that “that’s the profile that works”.

No matter what racial balance that creates, it’s a negative outcome for TJ. Too many similar kids results in mental health issues.

What everyone (mostly everyone) wants is a return to the best years of TJ, to the good old days when gifted students had rigorous but not crushing classes, a peer group of innovative students, and lower pressure. The 80s and 90s, maybe?

So far, no one has any idea how to recreate that. But I think a change is a step in the right direction.

To recreate that, you'd need to return to a time when a good but not great TJ student could count on UVA as a fall back and VT as a safety. Any school comprised of kids all wanting to go to competitive colleges is going to have pressure because those kids know they have to outperform their peers to make it happen

This is absolutely FALSE. TJ students have struggled in the college admissions process in recent years not because of the increased level of competitiveness, but because they tend to be indistinguishable from one another on paper. They are all going for the same seats at the same schools, rather than going for different seats at the same schools. So say college admissions officers who visit the school, at any rate.

Bring in a class of students with a greater diversity of experiences, interests, and goals, and you’ll see stronger admit numbers from TJ.

What complete nonsense.1. TJ is not struggling. 2 It is a top STEM school. So kids will apply for top STEM programs at college.
Good old days means more white kids getting admission/being in the majority?

1. By any reasonable measure, fewer TJ students are getting into elite schools AND the schools of their choice than they did 10, 15, 20 years ago. It's not close.

2. Being a top STEM school does not mean that all of its students need to go on to pursue STEM careers. A quality secondary STEM education can go a long way towards preparing a student for a productive and lucrative career in many other STEM-adjacent fields.

Where is your proof?

MCPS Montgomery Blair HS beats TJ in almost every academic contest is the most diverse HS in the state of MD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What I have learned in many years of experience in Northern Virginia and TJ is this:

If you have a hard and fast selection criteria that you use and apply equally to all students - basically no matter what it is - the system will favor the parents who have the resources and motivation to fit their round kid into the square hole. And you’re going to get a huge number of kids who all have relatively the same profile because the parents figured out that “that’s the profile that works”.

No matter what racial balance that creates, it’s a negative outcome for TJ. Too many similar kids results in mental health issues.

What everyone (mostly everyone) wants is a return to the best years of TJ, to the good old days when gifted students had rigorous but not crushing classes, a peer group of innovative students, and lower pressure. The 80s and 90s, maybe?

So far, no one has any idea how to recreate that. But I think a change is a step in the right direction.

To recreate that, you'd need to return to a time when a good but not great TJ student could count on UVA as a fall back and VT as a safety. Any school comprised of kids all wanting to go to competitive colleges is going to have pressure because those kids know they have to outperform their peers to make it happen

This is absolutely FALSE. TJ students have struggled in the college admissions process in recent years not because of the increased level of competitiveness, but because they tend to be indistinguishable from one another on paper. They are all going for the same seats at the same schools, rather than going for different seats at the same schools. So say college admissions officers who visit the school, at any rate.

Bring in a class of students with a greater diversity of experiences, interests, and goals, and you’ll see stronger admit numbers from TJ.

What complete nonsense.1. TJ is not struggling. 2 It is a top STEM school. So kids will apply for top STEM programs at college.
Good old days means more white kids getting admission/being in the majority?

1. By any reasonable measure, fewer TJ students are getting into elite schools AND the schools of their choice than they did 10, 15, 20 years ago. It's not close.

2. Being a top STEM school does not mean that all of its students need to go on to pursue STEM careers. A quality secondary STEM education can go a long way towards preparing a student for a productive and lucrative career in many other STEM-adjacent fields.

Where is your proof?

MCPS Montgomery Blair HS beats TJ in almost every academic contest is the most diverse HS in the state of MD.

High School Quiz Bowl Rankings Stats


RANK SCHOOL % CORRECT
2 Thomas Jefferson A (VA)
72.5%
1 Wayzata A (MN)
63.8%
5 Detroit Catholic Central A (MI)
52.5%
13 Hunter A (NY)
50.8%
4 Canyon Crest A (CA)
48.3%
8 Richard Montgomery A (MD)
46.3%
12 Lehigh Valley A (PA)
45.8%
3 Katy Taylor High School A (TX)
45.4%
27 Thomas Jefferson B (VA)
45%
37 Detroit Catholic Central B (MI)
43.8%
11 Liberal Arts and Science Academy A (TX)
43.3%
6 Rockford Auburn A (IL)
42.5%
46 Cistercian A (TX)
42.5%
21 Chattahoochee A (GA)
40.8%
7 Illinois Math and Science Academy A (IL)
39.2%
16 Montgomery Blair A (MD)
38.8%
30 High Tech A (NJ)
38.3%
10 Adlai Stevenson A (IL)
37.9%

https://www.sporcle.com/games/bradsleftfoot/high-school-quiz-bowl-rankings/results