Friend just announced her junior DD has committed to play lax at a top school

[Anonymous]

I think a lot of people are failing to understand...there are a lot of kids who have stellar grades and standardized test scores WHO ALSO play sports. When given the choice between two kids who have roughly the same academic credentials, the University is going to take the kid who can help staff a team.

There are really not that many circumstances where academics are totally bent to take a kid who would not otherwise gain admission.

[Anonymous]

I think it's funny how parents of athletes are twisting themselves into pretzels justifying this completely arbitrary advantage that athletes are given in the college admission process. Yes, your kid puts in long hours -- so do lot of other kids doing music, or theater, or science or dance at a high level. They don't get special admissions processes.

Yeah yeah, sports promotes community and school spirit. So do the performing arts. A tiny percentage of sports bring in money, most do not, yet they still get to recruit. You know that this glaring loophole in college admissions is the reason why the bribery scheme in the "Varsity Blues" case actually worked right? Take a picture of yourself on a rowing machine, call the kid a crew recruit -- voila, admission!

There are other unfairnesses in college admissions of course (legacies), but just because there are others doesn't mean that you can't acknowledge that this one is -- objectively -- unfair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yup.

Universities should only enroll based on academic merit.
No extra-curriculars.

Nope.

Universities should only enroll who they want on their campus. Private ones, at minimum. They get to choose.

You can believe they are choosing poorly, but the idea that you know what is better for them than they do is preposterous.

Most universities in the world select on academics and don't look AT ALL at extra-curriculars, poor ignorant PP. The US is one of the few to have the incredibly unfair and murky system they have. My kids will go to non-US unis, but I wish, for students like OP's and others, that US universities could stop their completely non-transparent and subjective application process. Just like the supposed "right" to bear arms and the consequences on gun deaths, or gouging corporate middlemen driving life-saving medications sky-high, to name but two other examples, Americans have been brain-washed into thinking these things are set in stone and can never be changed... when actually they're NOT normal and CAN and SHOULD be changed.

You can call me ignorant, but you are the one whose reading comprehension fails.

My point was that the private universities get to pick who they want, and the fact that there are other non-sequitur inequities in the world has no bearing on that simple fact.

To be clear, I am not the child of an athlete, and I have an unhooked kid at an ivy. And if I ran the zoo, it might be different. But I don't, and neither do you.

They know what is best for them and their mission. Better than you do. End period.

I do give you credit for making the non-hypocritical choice of not patronizing them, though.

[Anonymous]

When was the last time a bunch of people gathered around to watch someone in a lab? In a debate? They don't.

They pack stadiums to watch sports every weekend and it brings the school tons of money. Even small little academic schools in the northeast have nice sized crowds for their sporting events.

Sorry your kid wasn't able to manage getting great grades and participate in a sport. Most schools value that much more than a kid who gets good grades and is also in the science club.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College is supposed to be an academic pursuit. The role that sports plays is ridiculous.

Where did you ever get that idea? No one ever said that. Not the college certainly.

College is about creating a well rounded graduate. That includes sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Disagree. If your friend’s DD is academically qualified and someone who would be a good applicant at that school anyway, the school and student are making a good decision to lock in the relationship. Playing a sport at a level high enough to commit while maintaining grades, etc. deserves to be rewarded just as much as the kid who fiends 20 hours a week in the lab or practicing an instrument. Sports also enhance a school’s community and school spirit, so benefit all students.

Totaply agree! The athlete is providing more "value add" to the university.

Are they? I understand the argument for football and basketball, but once you start going down the list of sports do you even have fans? When you were in college, how many field hockey games did you attend? Did you go to any Tennis matches? Would who have cared at all if your school had a swimmer win an even at a division meet?

Most schools are in an athletic conference, so they need to field teams in various sports as part of their membership. So yes, the kids are value add.

ok. Does the average student care that their school went winless in the Patriot League in golf?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Yup.

Universities should only enroll based on academic merit.
No extra-curriculars.

Nope.

Universities should only enroll who they want on their campus. Private ones, at minimum. They get to choose.

You can believe they are choosing poorly, but the idea that you know what is better for them than they do is preposterous.

Most universities in the world select on academics and don't look AT ALL at extra-curriculars, poor ignorant PP. The US is one of the few to have the incredibly unfair and murky system they have. My kids will go to non-US unis, but I wish, for students like OP's and others, that US universities could stop their completely non-transparent and subjective application process. Just like the supposed "right" to bear arms and the consequences on gun deaths, or gouging corporate middlemen driving life-saving medications sky-high, to name but two other examples, Americans have been brain-washed into thinking these things are set in stone and can never be changed... when actually they're NOT normal and CAN and SHOULD be changed.

In case you have not noticed, the world's universities outside of the US and Canada plain suck. They do not produce well rounded people who can function in society. In most of the world they reinforce the power elite of that country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When was the last time a bunch of people gathered around to watch someone in a lab? In a debate? They don't.

They pack stadiums to watch sports every weekend and it brings the school tons of money. Even small little academic schools in the northeast have nice sized crowds for their sporting events.

Sorry your kid wasn't able to manage getting great grades and participate in a sport. Most schools value that much more than a kid who gets good grades and is also in the science club.

When was the last time a stadium was packed to watch a college swim meet?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot of people are failing to understand...there are a lot of kids who have stellar grades and standardized test scores WHO ALSO play sports. When given the choice between two kids who have roughly the same academic credentials, the University is going to take the kid who can help staff a team.

There are really not that many circumstances where academics are totally bent to take a kid who would not otherwise gain admission.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. First, I’m happy for them. The girl is very nice and her mom is an old friend.
Second, I don’t think it’s a scholarship, they definitely don’t need the money. I’m just annoyed that her DD is a year behind mine and won’t have to go through most of the college crap and stress mine is currently going through. We are deep in it right now. My DD doesn’t play sports but has other talents, none which get her recruited by colleges.
Third, she has worked hard as an athlete but she wouldn’t be in a position to be recruited if her parents didn’t have the time and money to pay for all teams and tournaments. Let’s face it, for many (I realize there are big exceptions) recruited athletes for sports like lax come from affluent families so the whole system leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I know this is nothing new. I went to HS with many children of billionaires, most of whom ended up at ivies despite not having the grades. Life is not fair, college admissions is not fair.
I was just venting because, again, I have a very stressed out out senior.

A junior has not received a commitment. Even a senior right now with a verbal commitment from a school could find themselves scrambling last minute. Athletics are effectively part of Early Decision, the deal isn’t settled until about the same time, and athletes are a pool of full pay students for the schools. If they get an aid package, it’s just the regular discounting that particular (lower tier) school offers. Top schools offer nothing. And of course, just like any ED, this limits the athlete to one school, and often not one they would have picked otherwise.

My child is a senior and is a recruited athlete for an Ivy. The likely letter from Admissions was received the first week of October. For Ivies in particular, there are no scholarships for merit or athletics so there's no advantage there.

I can assure you that the process is not any less stressful for recruited athletes than everyone else. In fact, the grades (through the end of sophomore year), SAT scores, and athletic record had to be solidified earlier to receive a verbal commitment at the beginning of junior year, which is technically the earliest for such commitments based on NCAA rules. To be clear, the verbal commitment and coach's support in the admissions process came after a preliminary pre-read by Admissions. My child's full application (essays, recommendation letters, school profile, transcripts, official SAT scores) had to be submitted between September 1-15 of senior year which meant an abbreviated timeline. My child worked all summer on essays to meet this deadline. The fact that essays about your sport are discouraged meant that there had to be other substance there -- other meaningful extracurriculars, experiences, community service -- not just athletics. The admissions criteria for my athlete were the same as for any other student. There was no flexibility with the GPA or SAT score or expectations for being a well-rounded student.

We are not an affluent family by any stretch of the imagination. Definitely working class. My family has made tremendous sacrifices (time and money) to provide the sport as an opportunity for my child. My child has dedicated 25-30 hours a week for years to reach the top of the sport while maintaining exceptional academics. The work has been put in and the admission is well-deserved.

I do not doubt any of this except that the academics are on par with the kids getting in without the athletic recruitment hook. There is a level that they have to achieve but it is not the same. I have two family members that were recruited by multiple Ivys for their sport (sisters and same sport). One went to Harvard, the second decided fall of her senior year that she did not want to do her sport in college because she was an engineering major and wanted to focus on her studies. She had achieved sufficient SAT scores with little effort for when she was a rectruited athlete but she had to study and take them again to get into a comparable level school without the sport hook. She did not get into the same Ivys that were recruiting her but did get into a top 15 school. Yes she was smart and worked hard, but she admitted she needed to turn ither academics up when she walked away from the sport.

Also, they worked hard at their sport but the recruiters came to them, it was not a long term stressful strategy.

You doubt that my child's academics were on par with those getting in without the athletic recruitment?

On average, yes. Perhaps your child is an outlier.

Perhaps your sample size of 2 contains 2 outliers. You really shouldn't make generalizations which only serve to diminish the qualifications and accomplishments of others. You could not possibly have knowledge to support your "on average" comment applied across the thousands of athletes recruited at roughly 1100 colleges that offer a combination of 24 NCAA sports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot of people are failing to understand...there are a lot of kids who have stellar grades and standardized test scores WHO ALSO play sports. When given the choice between two kids who have roughly the same academic credentials, the University is going to take the kid who can help staff a team.

There are really not that many circumstances where academics are totally bent to take a kid who would not otherwise gain admission.

+1

Sure, Allen Iverson totally would have been admitted to Georgetown had he just been in the regular admissions pile

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When was the last time a bunch of people gathered around to watch someone in a lab? In a debate? They don't.

They pack stadiums to watch sports every weekend and it brings the school tons of money. Even small little academic schools in the northeast have nice sized crowds for their sporting events.

Sorry your kid wasn't able to manage getting great grades and participate in a sport. Most schools value that much more than a kid who gets good grades and is also in the science club.

When was the last time a stadium was packed to watch a college swim meet?

But because the stadium is packed each Saturday in the fall those swimmers get to swim and you clearly have never been to a big 10 swim meet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot of people are failing to understand...there are a lot of kids who have stellar grades and standardized test scores WHO ALSO play sports. When given the choice between two kids who have roughly the same academic credentials, the University is going to take the kid who can help staff a team.

There are really not that many circumstances where academics are totally bent to take a kid who would not otherwise gain admission.

+1

Sure, Allen Iverson totally would have been admitted to Georgetown had he just been in the regular admissions pile

Yet he brought more money into the university then 95% of the people who have ever attended it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When was the last time a bunch of people gathered around to watch someone in a lab? In a debate? They don't.

They pack stadiums to watch sports every weekend and it brings the school tons of money. Even small little academic schools in the northeast have nice sized crowds for their sporting events.

Sorry your kid wasn't able to manage getting great grades and participate in a sport. Most schools value that much more than a kid who gets good grades and is also in the science club.

When was the last time a stadium was packed to watch a college swim meet?

But because the stadium is packed each Saturday in the fall those swimmers get to swim and you clearly have never been to a big 10 swim meet.

Just look at those dozen spectators. That totally makes the cost of the program worthwhile

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[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think a lot of people are failing to understand...there are a lot of kids who have stellar grades and standardized test scores WHO ALSO play sports. When given the choice between two kids who have roughly the same academic credentials, the University is going to take the kid who can help staff a team.

There are really not that many circumstances where academics are totally bent to take a kid who would not otherwise gain admission.

+1

Sure, Allen Iverson totally would have been admitted to Georgetown had he just been in the regular admissions pile

Yet he brought more money into the university then 95% of the people who have ever attended it.

100%. Honestly, this whole 10 page convo is angry privileged white ladies who want their kids to have a bigger hook in the door that they built to keep others out. They're trying to peddle it as being 100% focused on academics but it's really about keeping who they deem to be subpar out of their institutions. The universities have decided that they value sports. They offer a small amount of scholarships and slots for athletes who meet their requirements. If your kids are able to compete in that world, have at it. IF not, go through the college admissions process just like everyone else. This is not hard.