Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think Shiv is closer to 16 weeks, so possibly not showing with a first-time pregnancy.

The convo with her doctor going over the screening results was just a few days ago (each episode is one day this season), and the dr. was talking about seeing her next at the 20 week appt. You are only going to the dr every 4 weeks at that stage of pregnancy. This is my understanding of the timeline, correct me if I am off base.

Each episode is only supposed to be 1 day? I've been very confused by how much time has supposedly gone by but this seems a little unrealistic. They were in NY in episode 3 when Logan died and episode 4 was the next day at Logan's apartment; then episode 5 is the next day in Norway; episode 6 a day later in LA?

Private jets, helicopters, billionaires. It's not that unrealistic. These people are not booking commercial flights, wasting time in traffic, standing in lines, etc.

Though they obviously spent at least 2 days in Norway (there's an overnight).

Speaking of private jets, I found that scene with Shiv and Lukas on the plane pretty hilarious in terms of billionaire ahole behavior. Him calling from the next jet over, then walking over BAREFOOT to visit, then making some comment about the interior of her jet and her rolling her eyes and calling him out on the childishness of insulin someone's private jet interior. I have no idea if that's what it's actually like to live that life but it was funny to contemplate in that scene.

Not a billionaire, but having worked with people like this and done my time on corporate jets — that scene rang *so* true. When you get to that level, it’s really the only thing that distinguishes the incredibly rich from the ridiculously rich from the obscenely rich. But the biggest flex of all is not caring. It was a “tell” — Matsson is new to it and still impressed by the trappings of wealth.

Upthread someone questioned Kendall’s comment about the size of his room in a Norway. That rang true to me, as well, but it had nothing to do with Kendall being spoiled. Kendall was sensitive to the status games Matsson was playing. That’s why he asked Roman if his room was small as well. He doesn’t care about it if everyone has a small room, but he wants to know if he’s being dissed.

That's interesting, reminds me of a New Yorker article I read last year about super yachts, all these billionaires playing games to get the biggest boat. It makes you realize what a trap all this is, none of these people will ever be truly satisfied.

Michael Lewis's book The New New Thing talks about this too. It's a really interesting profile of all these tech billionaires and what drives them. It is very hard to read about stuff like this and maintain a large amount of respect for these guys. Most of them are petty, permanently unhappy people who have destroyed their families and have no real friends. Many of them have likely personality disorders. There may have once been a time when the richest people in the world were living the best lives (maybe, I'm skeptical) but it's definitely not now. They might be living comfortable lives but many/most of them are miserable human beings.

It's impossible to have that much money and not be surrounded by people who either want your money or only like you because you have that much money.

I don't know, some people seem to manage it. You could also always give your money away. You are not required to spend it on a yacht that is 12 ft longer than some other billionaire's yacht in order to win a dick measuring contest that literally no one but you cares about.

Like if anyone has a choice in how they live their lives, it's billionaires.

The point above wasn't about their useless spending. It's about the way they lose touch with other human beings. The people around you change and they aren't going to be good people. That will change you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Does anybody else think think the way Kendall monkeyed with the financing projections and his dad’s video (double the revenue!) will come back to bite him? A lot of people know the numbers were funny and that he messed with the video. And some of those same people are motivated to do him in.

I think that's quite possible. I also think one of the old guard will be shut out or will leave - probably Gerri, but maybe Frank because Frank seems pretty decent.

Karl threatened to go public about the numbers if Kendall fires him. So Karl won't be fired. Roman already fired Gerri and Kendall apparently doesn't care, so it will be interesting to see if Gerri has a way back in. I'm guessing Frank is next, too. Although all of them know the numbers are rotten so maybe they all have leverage.

It's funny though how Roman has technically fired Gerri twice and yet she is still there, and neither time was the board informed of the firing. So it will be interesting to see if the board learns about this one eventually and if a replacement is appointed and what the blowback is -- Gerri no doubt has allies (and enemies) on the board. I don't think an interim CEO firing the company's General Counsel with no warning in the middle of buyout negotiations will go unnoticed.

I think firing Gerri is significantly trickier than firing the studio head, which Roman also screwed up and will almost definitely result in blowback as well.

Another thing to remember is that pretty much everyone involved with Waystar wants this deal to go through because they stand to make a f**kton of money off of it. The offer that Lukas has communicated is a massive valuation and everyone involved has giant dollar signs in their eyes. Except Kendall and Roman. So the idea that they are going to just go rogue and tank the deal and all the people who will lose (on paper) millions of dollars as a result will just accept it? Nope. This is how shareholders lawsuits and SEC investigations are born. And Roman and Kendall haven't even been particularly careful -- Jess and Greg both know what they are doing. Do you really think Greg wouldn't fold under tough questioning in a deposition?

I don't see any way Roman and Kendall get away with their current plan. They will likely get away, generally, with being rich idiots with very few consequences. But I don't see any way they successfully tank the deal, hold onto their CEO roles, and get to run Waystar the way they apparently would like to (note: they have no concrete vision for the company, just a vague attraction to the idea of playacting as Logan). That will not happen. If it does, I'll eat my shoe.

I’m not sure whether they’ll be able to tank the deal or not, but one thing they mentioned in this ep is that the Mattson deal gets shareholders (or maybe just board members? Not sure?) half cash and half stock. So everyone has a vested interest in Mattson not being a total f***up who trashes any stock value going forward. So the baby steps about Mattson being irrational are significant (and if Shiv ever cares to share her blood story that would be even more significant) towards the goal of trashing the deal.

Question - Kendall indicated at one point that they would be able to still buy Pierce without selling to Mattson - how is that possible? I thought they needed the Mattson $ to go out on their own and buy Pierce.

And I agree with many of you here that Greg has been sidelined/underused lately but his line to Tom about how his presentation isn’t great but it won’t matter because no one would be paying attention? Perfect.

Regarding Kendall's idea to buy Pierce without selling to Matsson -- I think it's pure fantasy. He said this in the context of arguing they could make Waystar so profitable that they could make enough money off of it to buy Pierce. But he has no actual ideas to make this happen. His best idea at this point is to lie to people that they are trying to figure out how to make people live longer in order to juice the stock price. That is NOT going to produce enough equity to buy Pierce. It's just ludicrous on its face.

Kendall's behavior in the last two episodes have made me wonder if he's relapsing and doing drugs again. He seemed pretty level headed and calm in the episode where Logan died and the one after, but since then he's back to his old manic antics. He's lying to people, ignoring massive red flags (like Roman firing two major players in one afternoon), taking massive risks. Given his history and the fact that his dad died just a few days ago, I would not be at all shocked to learn that he was using.

And actually, speaking of drugs, the show has gone out of its way to show Roman taking a pill from a bottle on his dad's desk, and then later unpacking a big prescription bottle in his cabin in Norway. Though he doesn't have the same history, it would also not surprise me to learn that Roman is self-medicating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m terribly naive but I hope the ending brings the siblings together, in the absence of their father who always tore them apart. I hope the ending includes them parting ways with both Logan and waystar, but being brought closer together as family. I have enjoyed seeing them get closer this season.

And I hope Shiv can get a fresh start with a family of her own.

Where would that possibly come from? Their parents never modeled caring behavior. It would be a lie if the kids suddenly started that.

DP. I don't think that's true at all. Look at Drew Barrymore, who had an incredibly dysfunctional and inappropriate childhood. She is the very model of stability and nurturing motherhood. I think that is often true with people like that who grow up and yearn for the family life they never had. Doesn't always happen, but it certainly does sometimes.

That said, I seriously doubt this will be the way Succession ends up! Dysfunctional all the way, baby.

Abusive families come in all types of flavors. You can have a parent love you, show you love, teach you to love but still be abusive. Love was not a characteristic of the Roy family. Logan destroyed every single living thing around him at one time or another. The injuries that he inflicted upon everyone in his circle are well documented. The kid's moms even were more concerned with $ than with their kids. The Roy kids were never loved.

Their best relationships are with one another and I think we are going to see those go to heck in the upcoming shows. Is Kendall's #1 drawn in the sand an indicator that he intends to take over ignoring the plan he Roman and Shiv agreed to? They've kicked Shiv to the curb, this is part of her sadness, and she is aligning herself with Mattson. We're seeing the cracks in their relationship now. They've grown up knowing that they can't trust one another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think Shiv is closer to 16 weeks, so possibly not showing with a first-time pregnancy.

The convo with her doctor going over the screening results was just a few days ago (each episode is one day this season), and the dr. was talking about seeing her next at the 20 week appt. You are only going to the dr every 4 weeks at that stage of pregnancy. This is my understanding of the timeline, correct me if I am off base.

Each episode is only supposed to be 1 day? I've been very confused by how much time has supposedly gone by but this seems a little unrealistic. They were in NY in episode 3 when Logan died and episode 4 was the next day at Logan's apartment; then episode 5 is the next day in Norway; episode 6 a day later in LA?

Private jets, helicopters, billionaires. It's not that unrealistic. These people are not booking commercial flights, wasting time in traffic, standing in lines, etc.

Though they obviously spent at least 2 days in Norway (there's an overnight).

Speaking of private jets, I found that scene with Shiv and Lukas on the plane pretty hilarious in terms of billionaire ahole behavior. Him calling from the next jet over, then walking over BAREFOOT to visit, then making some comment about the interior of her jet and her rolling her eyes and calling him out on the childishness of insulin someone's private jet interior. I have no idea if that's what it's actually like to live that life but it was funny to contemplate in that scene.

Not a billionaire, but having worked with people like this and done my time on corporate jets — that scene rang *so* true. When you get to that level, it’s really the only thing that distinguishes the incredibly rich from the ridiculously rich from the obscenely rich. But the biggest flex of all is not caring. It was a “tell” — Matsson is new to it and still impressed by the trappings of wealth.

Upthread someone questioned Kendall’s comment about the size of his room in a Norway. That rang true to me, as well, but it had nothing to do with Kendall being spoiled. Kendall was sensitive to the status games Matsson was playing. That’s why he asked Roman if his room was small as well. He doesn’t care about it if everyone has a small room, but he wants to know if he’s being dissed.

That's interesting, reminds me of a New Yorker article I read last year about super yachts, all these billionaires playing games to get the biggest boat. It makes you realize what a trap all this is, none of these people will ever be truly satisfied.

Michael Lewis's book The New New Thing talks about this too. It's a really interesting profile of all these tech billionaires and what drives them. It is very hard to read about stuff like this and maintain a large amount of respect for these guys. Most of them are petty, permanently unhappy people who have destroyed their families and have no real friends. Many of them have likely personality disorders. There may have once been a time when the richest people in the world were living the best lives (maybe, I'm skeptical) but it's definitely not now. They might be living comfortable lives but many/most of them are miserable human beings.

It's impossible to have that much money and not be surrounded by people who either want your money or only like you because you have that much money.

I don't know, some people seem to manage it. You could also always give your money away. You are not required to spend it on a yacht that is 12 ft longer than some other billionaire's yacht in order to win a dick measuring contest that literally no one but you cares about.

Like if anyone has a choice in how they live their lives, it's billionaires.

The point above wasn't about their useless spending. It's about the way they lose touch with other human beings. The people around you change and they aren't going to be good people. That will change you.

Yes but some people manage to not wind up surrounded with sycophants and other users. Warren Buffet still lives in Nebraska and seems to have a normal, low key marriage to his second wife (his first wife died, though they were separated for a long time). Bill Gates seems to continue to be fairly down to earth and is, by all reports, a decent person to work with and derives a ton of personal satisfaction in his charitable work. A number of the Waltons have lived very normal lives focused mostly on family. And while not at this wealth level, the Kennedys are another wealthy family that seems to have maintained their sanity by focusing closely on strong family ties and charitable work.

It is not inevitable that becoming a billionaire means that you can't have good people around you or that you have to become out of touch with other humans. Yes, it happens and we have lots of very prominent examples of that. But it's a question of character. A lot of these people have very weak character. They were always greedy and disinterested in relationships, and their wealth just exposed that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m terribly naive but I hope the ending brings the siblings together, in the absence of their father who always tore them apart. I hope the ending includes them parting ways with both Logan and waystar, but being brought closer together as family. I have enjoyed seeing them get closer this season.

And I hope Shiv can get a fresh start with a family of her own.

Where would that possibly come from? Their parents never modeled caring behavior. It would be a lie if the kids suddenly started that.

DP. I don't think that's true at all. Look at Drew Barrymore, who had an incredibly dysfunctional and inappropriate childhood. She is the very model of stability and nurturing motherhood. I think that is often true with people like that who grow up and yearn for the family life they never had. Doesn't always happen, but it certainly does sometimes.

That said, I seriously doubt this will be the way Succession ends up! Dysfunctional all the way, baby.

Abusive families come in all types of flavors. You can have a parent love you, show you love, teach you to love but still be abusive. Love was not a characteristic of the Roy family. Logan destroyed every single living thing around him at one time or another. The injuries that he inflicted upon everyone in his circle are well documented. The kid's moms even were more concerned with $ than with their kids. The Roy kids were never loved.

Their best relationships are with one another and I think we are going to see those go to heck in the upcoming shows. Is Kendall's #1 drawn in the sand an indicator that he intends to take over ignoring the plan he Roman and Shiv agreed to? They've kicked Shiv to the curb, this is part of her sadness, and she is aligning herself with Mattson. We're seeing the cracks in their relationship now. They've grown up knowing that they can't trust one another.

Ooh this reminds me of something else I’m not clear about - what is Shiv’s position in the company right now? Kendall and Roman are co-CEOs but I haven’t been sure she even has one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m terribly naive but I hope the ending brings the siblings together, in the absence of their father who always tore them apart. I hope the ending includes them parting ways with both Logan and waystar, but being brought closer together as family. I have enjoyed seeing them get closer this season.

And I hope Shiv can get a fresh start with a family of her own.

Where would that possibly come from? Their parents never modeled caring behavior. It would be a lie if the kids suddenly started that.

DP. I don't think that's true at all. Look at Drew Barrymore, who had an incredibly dysfunctional and inappropriate childhood. She is the very model of stability and nurturing motherhood. I think that is often true with people like that who grow up and yearn for the family life they never had. Doesn't always happen, but it certainly does sometimes.

That said, I seriously doubt this will be the way Succession ends up! Dysfunctional all the way, baby.

Abusive families come in all types of flavors. You can have a parent love you, show you love, teach you to love but still be abusive. Love was not a characteristic of the Roy family. Logan destroyed every single living thing around him at one time or another. The injuries that he inflicted upon everyone in his circle are well documented. The kid's moms even were more concerned with $ than with their kids. The Roy kids were never loved.

Their best relationships are with one another and I think we are going to see those go to heck in the upcoming shows. Is Kendall's #1 drawn in the sand an indicator that he intends to take over ignoring the plan he Roman and Shiv agreed to? They've kicked Shiv to the curb, this is part of her sadness, and she is aligning herself with Mattson. We're seeing the cracks in their relationship now. They've grown up knowing that they can't trust one another.

Ooh this reminds me of something else I’m not clear about - what is Shiv’s position in the company right now? Kendall and Roman are co-CEOs but I haven’t been sure she even has one.

I don't think she has an official role either. And it's occurred to me that if something really bad happens with Waystar in terms of liability exposure, this means Shiv is in the clear while Kendall and Roman (and Geri and Frank and Karl) would all be implicated.

I don't necessarily think that's where it's going, but Shiv's lack of an official role has occurred to me and I think it could be considered an advantage in some ways.

[Anonymous]

Isn't the deal with Mattson partly stock? So if he f's up the company after owning it, the kids will be screwed financially?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Isn't the deal with Mattson partly stock? So if he f's up the company after owning it, the kids will be screwed financially?

Yes, that’s true. And it’s why Kendall and Roman are trying to make Mattson look like an erratic Elon Musk, because they know people like Karl don’t want to take a hit to their shares.

[Anonymous]

Ugh, tonights episode was really hard to watch. Not really even any surprises, just one miserable turn of events after another. Thoughts:

- Willa is the only character I genuinely like, and Connor saying that there was only one person in that room who genuinely believes in/cares about (can't remember which) him, and he was going to listen to her? One of the smartest things anyone has ever said on the show.

- I don't think Shiv and Tom can come back from that and now very curious to see what happens with the pregnancy.

- Roman is scaring me right now so the idea of him giving the eulogy is, uh, bad.

- I hate that Kendall started to seem kind of smart by the end of the episode again. I'm not rooting for Matsson, who also sucks, but if he stumbles into some huge win (Wayco acquiring Gojo) despite himself, I'm going to be so annoyed. So now I think this is probably what happens.

- Go Gerri! She can join Willa on the "not total trash" team. I like that she put Romans balls in a vise and started turning the crank. Perfect.

[Anonymous]

This show is giving me a headache trying to follow the timeline. Did Logan die on a Friday or Saturday? And now it’s a Monday, and at least 3-5 days have passed, so we’re probably closer to 10 days. When are they burying him?

Also Shiv said she lost six months with her father because of Tom. Does that mean we’re six months past the finale. Tom’s line about “wouldn’t even have my baby” makes me think that he knows she’s pregnant and that the baby isn’t his, because she got pregnant while they were estranged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, tonights episode was really hard to watch. Not really even any surprises, just one miserable turn of events after another. Thoughts:

- Willa is the only character I genuinely like, and Connor saying that there was only one person in that room who genuinely believes in/cares about (can't remember which) him, and he was going to listen to her? One of the smartest things anyone has ever said on the show.

- I don't think Shiv and Tom can come back from that and now very curious to see what happens with the pregnancy.

- Roman is scaring me right now so the idea of him giving the eulogy is, uh, bad.

- I hate that Kendall started to seem kind of smart by the end of the episode again. I'm not rooting for Matsson, who also sucks, but if he stumbles into some huge win (Wayco acquiring Gojo) despite himself, I'm going to be so annoyed. So now I think this is probably what happens.

- Go Gerri! She can join Willa on the "not total trash" team. I like that she put Romans balls in a vise and started turning the crank. Perfect.

I was so pissed at Roman for insulting Willa in front of Connor and had major respect for Connor's character for his reaction. Roman sucks, Kendall sucks for being such a loser father and douche of an ex-husband, and Shiv is such a jerk to Tom (who sucks in his own way too).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, tonights episode was really hard to watch. Not really even any surprises, just one miserable turn of events after another. Thoughts:

- Willa is the only character I genuinely like, and Connor saying that there was only one person in that room who genuinely believes in/cares about (can't remember which) him, and he was going to listen to her? One of the smartest things anyone has ever said on the show.

- I don't think Shiv and Tom can come back from that and now very curious to see what happens with the pregnancy.

- Roman is scaring me right now so the idea of him giving the eulogy is, uh, bad.

- I hate that Kendall started to seem kind of smart by the end of the episode again. I'm not rooting for Matsson, who also sucks, but if he stumbles into some huge win (Wayco acquiring Gojo) despite himself, I'm going to be so annoyed. So now I think this is probably what happens.

- Go Gerri! She can join Willa on the "not total trash" team. I like that she put Romans balls in a vise and started turning the crank. Perfect.

I was so pissed at Roman for insulting Willa in front of Connor and had major respect for Connor's character for his reaction. Roman sucks, Kendall sucks for being such a loser father and douche of an ex-husband, and Shiv is such a jerk to Tom (who sucks in his own way too).

It's crazy that of the four of them, Connor is the one who is turning out to have the most maturity and good sense when it comes to relationships.

Though in retrospect it kind of makes sense, because Connor is the only one of the four who ever seemed to understand on any level that (1) Logan was never going to give him the love or approval he craves, and (2) so you might as well just enjoy the money. At the beginning of the show, he's just off living on his big ranch out West away from all the Waystar craziness. He gets drawn in a bit in the second season, but ultimately still decides to go do his own thing and run for president. I mean, it's ridiculous and he's ridiculous, but it's also perversely admirable that he's just like "I'm really rich and my family sucks -- I'm just going to please myself." So he does. Good for him.

I also loved that Willa told him to stay in the race and the reasoning she gave him because it's so sensible. He came all this way and spent all this money, might as well see what happens, plus Menken is awful ("all my friends and family hate him") so eff that guy, and who the heck wants to go live in Oman when you are rich enough to live somewhere you actually want? Like why take a 3rd rate diplomatic posting when you could just go buy a really nice apartment in London or Paris or Berlin tomorrow and just live there without having to work? Willa is smarter than any of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, tonights episode was really hard to watch. Not really even any surprises, just one miserable turn of events after another. Thoughts:

- Willa is the only character I genuinely like, and Connor saying that there was only one person in that room who genuinely believes in/cares about (can't remember which) him, and he was going to listen to her? One of the smartest things anyone has ever said on the show.

- I don't think Shiv and Tom can come back from that and now very curious to see what happens with the pregnancy.

- Roman is scaring me right now so the idea of him giving the eulogy is, uh, bad.

- I hate that Kendall started to seem kind of smart by the end of the episode again. I'm not rooting for Matsson, who also sucks, but if he stumbles into some huge win (Wayco acquiring Gojo) despite himself, I'm going to be so annoyed. So now I think this is probably what happens.

- Go Gerri! She can join Willa on the "not total trash" team. I like that she put Romans balls in a vise and started turning the crank. Perfect.

I was so pissed at Roman for insulting Willa in front of Connor and had major respect for Connor's character for his reaction. Roman sucks, Kendall sucks for being such a loser father and douche of an ex-husband, and Shiv is such a jerk to Tom (who sucks in his own way too).

Yes, Roman was the only one I sort of liked before. Not anymore!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, tonights episode was really hard to watch. Not really even any surprises, just one miserable turn of events after another. Thoughts:

- Willa is the only character I genuinely like, and Connor saying that there was only one person in that room who genuinely believes in/cares about (can't remember which) him, and he was going to listen to her? One of the smartest things anyone has ever said on the show.

- I don't think Shiv and Tom can come back from that and now very curious to see what happens with the pregnancy.

- Roman is scaring me right now so the idea of him giving the eulogy is, uh, bad.

- I hate that Kendall started to seem kind of smart by the end of the episode again. I'm not rooting for Matsson, who also sucks, but if he stumbles into some huge win (Wayco acquiring Gojo) despite himself, I'm going to be so annoyed. So now I think this is probably what happens.

- Go Gerri! She can join Willa on the "not total trash" team. I like that she put Romans balls in a vise and started turning the crank. Perfect.

I was so pissed at Roman for insulting Willa in front of Connor and had major respect for Connor's character for his reaction. Roman sucks, Kendall sucks for being such a loser father and douche of an ex-husband, and Shiv is such a jerk to Tom (who sucks in his own way too).

Yes, Roman was the only one I sort of liked before. Not anymore!

I keep on getting whiplash from sympathizing with the Roy kids and then immediately hating them all within the same episode.

[Anonymous]

That fight was excruciating. I was physically uncomfortable.

Really interesting that Shiv has now been told she would not be a good mother by the two people that it means the most coming from - her mother and her husband.

I read a re-cap that has a bit about Rava - she's kind of a bellwether for how crappy of a person Kendall is at any given moment.

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/07/1174354471/succession-season-4-episode-7-tailgate-party

An interesting Succession side story has been Rava's evolution from barely wanting to divorce Kendall to trying to co-parent peacefully with him to pitying him to being utterly tired of him. We don't see Natalie Gold that often, but every time we do, I always think her performance is spot-on and very interesting as a woman who married into this family and knows very well she'll never be completely out of it.

Go Connor and Willa.

Roman sucks and may need the most therapy of all of them.