Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone in this thread want to offer a Mae culpa for denying the rapes that occurred that the U.N. confirmed? Both on 10/7 and in captivity? Anyone?

Yeah, I do. If they have been proven to have happened (beyond the UN statements I saw yesterday that were not quite definitive), I was wrong to have suggested the evidence would prove otherwise. Mea culpa.

Never denied.

Still. Need to eliminate all Zionists. Then there will be peace.

And a call for genocide.

Lovely.

I wouldn't be supportive of the elimination of any group of people without much more granular information, but how is this different than calling for the mass elimination of Hamas? You understand that Zionism is viewed as an unapologetically violent, vicious, inhumane, and racist ideology, right?

Zionism is abhorrent. It's NOT simply about creating and sustaining a Jewish homeland, unless you want to pretend that the ends justify the means - no matter how violent, viciously cruel, inhumane and racist those means were/are.

Hamas is obviously abhorrent, as well. But let's not pretend that subjugated people seeking any means necessary[u] to try to achieve their goals isn't an accusation that can comfortably describe the actions of both of these groups. In fact, Zionism fathered modern day terrorism. It's a fact. If you dispute that, go cry and pound sand about 10/7 elsewhere.

My, what a contortionist you are!

You called for genocide of Zionists, which includes virtually every Israeli.

So the equivalent is not, as you argue, calling for the elimination of Hamas; rather, the equivalent would be calling for genocide of Palestinians.

Evil, hypocritical, and not particularly capable, all in one neat little package.

Thanks for so ably demonstrating the true colors and the limitations of the pro-Palestinian movement. Much appreciated.

Also, to add, I believe it's possible to be Israeli, support the right of Israel to exist, and yet not be a racist, intolerant, POS Zionist. In fact, I hope that most of Israel is comprised of people like that - proud Israelis who don't support the apartheid, war crime actions of their government.

If you support the right of Israel to exist, you’re a Zionist. Congrats/ So which is it?

If supporting the right of Israel is what definitionally makes one a Zionist then it's time to stop demonizing and denigrating the term and using it as a pejorative, because for example if you support a two state solution that also makes you a zionist. Meanwhile, if you do not believe in the right of Israel to exist, that makes you a supporter of ethnic cleansing. Or, do words just not mean anything anymore and it's all empty vicious rhetoric?

Completely illogical BS. Israel ethnically cleansed the Palestinians brutally and viciously. A one-state solution would not mean anyone currently living in Israel would be ethnically cleansed. It just means Zionists would be on the same footing as Palestinians. Equality seems like oppression if you expect supremacy. Having to accept full equality for all is hardly ethnic cleansing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone in this thread want to offer a Mae culpa for denying the rapes that occurred that the U.N. confirmed? Both on 10/7 and in captivity? Anyone?

Yeah, I do. If they have been proven to have happened (beyond the UN statements I saw yesterday that were not quite definitive), I was wrong to have suggested the evidence would prove otherwise. Mea culpa.

Never denied.

Still. Need to eliminate all Zionists. Then there will be peace.

And a call for genocide.

Lovely.

I wouldn't be supportive of the elimination of any group of people without much more granular information, but how is this different than calling for the mass elimination of Hamas? You understand that Zionism is viewed as an unapologetically violent, vicious, inhumane, and racist ideology, right?

Zionism is abhorrent. It's NOT simply about creating and sustaining a Jewish homeland, unless you want to pretend that the ends justify the means - no matter how violent, viciously cruel, inhumane and racist those means were/are.

Hamas is obviously abhorrent, as well. But let's not pretend that subjugated people seeking any means necessary[u] to try to achieve their goals isn't an accusation that can comfortably describe the actions of both of these groups. In fact, Zionism fathered modern day terrorism. It's a fact. If you dispute that, go cry and pound sand about 10/7 elsewhere.

My, what a contortionist you are!

You called for genocide of Zionists, which includes virtually every Israeli.

So the equivalent is not, as you argue, calling for the elimination of Hamas; rather, the equivalent would be calling for genocide of Palestinians.

Evil, hypocritical, and not particularly capable, all in one neat little package.

Thanks for so ably demonstrating the true colors and the limitations of the pro-Palestinian movement. Much appreciated.

Also, to add, I believe it's possible to be Israeli, support the right of Israel to exist, and yet not be a racist, intolerant, POS Zionist. In fact, I hope that most of Israel is comprised of people like that - proud Israelis who don't support the apartheid, war crime actions of their government.

If you support the right of Israel to exist, you’re a Zionist. Congrats/ So which is it?

NP

So a Zionist supports the right of Israel to exist by any means necessary? By forcible eviction of the Palestinians if it comes down to it? Just making sure I understand the defn and at what point one stops being a Zionist? I think I am falling off the bandwagon. I used to believe Israel had a right to exist. For the most part, I still do. I just don’t think I can support an Israeli state over Palestinian lives and dignity.

Do you know what percentage of Israelis are zionists? Do you know what percentage of Jewish people are zionists? Do you know what percentage of American Jews are zionists? Any reputable data anyone can point me to? Wondering if everyone shares the definition of “Zionism” when they call themselves a zionist or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone in this thread want to offer a Mae culpa for denying the rapes that occurred that the U.N. confirmed? Both on 10/7 and in captivity? Anyone?

Yeah, I do. If they have been proven to have happened (beyond the UN statements I saw yesterday that were not quite definitive), I was wrong to have suggested the evidence would prove otherwise. Mea culpa.

Never denied.

Still. Need to eliminate all Zionists. Then there will be peace.

And a call for genocide.

Lovely.

I wouldn't be supportive of the elimination of any group of people without much more granular information, but how is this different than calling for the mass elimination of Hamas? You understand that Zionism is viewed as an unapologetically violent, vicious, inhumane, and racist ideology, right?

Zionism is abhorrent. It's NOT simply about creating and sustaining a Jewish homeland, unless you want to pretend that the ends justify the means - no matter how violent, viciously cruel, inhumane and racist those means were/are.

Hamas is obviously abhorrent, as well. But let's not pretend that subjugated people seeking any means necessary[u] to try to achieve their goals isn't an accusation that can comfortably describe the actions of both of these groups. In fact, Zionism fathered modern day terrorism. It's a fact. If you dispute that, go cry and pound sand about 10/7 elsewhere.

My, what a contortionist you are!

You called for genocide of Zionists, which includes virtually every Israeli.

So the equivalent is not, as you argue, calling for the elimination of Hamas; rather, the equivalent would be calling for genocide of Palestinians.

Evil, hypocritical, and not particularly capable, all in one neat little package.

Thanks for so ably demonstrating the true colors and the limitations of the pro-Palestinian movement. Much appreciated.

Also, to add, I believe it's possible to be Israeli, support the right of Israel to exist, and yet not be a racist, intolerant, POS Zionist. In fact, I hope that most of Israel is comprised of people like that - proud Israelis who don't support the apartheid, war crime actions of their government.

If you support the right of Israel to exist, you’re a Zionist. Congrats/ So which is it?

NP

So a Zionist supports the right of Israel to exist by any means necessary? By forcible eviction of the Palestinians if it comes down to it? Just making sure I understand the defn and at what point one stops being a Zionist? I think I am falling off the bandwagon. I used to believe Israel had a right to exist. For the most part, I still do. I just don’t think I can support an Israeli state over Palestinian lives and dignity.

Do you know what percentage of Israelis are zionists? Do you know what percentage of Jewish people are zionists? Do you know what percentage of American Jews are zionists? Any reputable data anyone can point me to? Wondering if everyone shares the definition of “Zionism” when they call themselves a zionist or not.

Since you sound interested in the topic you could research it yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone in this thread want to offer a Mae culpa for denying the rapes that occurred that the U.N. confirmed? Both on 10/7 and in captivity? Anyone?

Yeah, I do. If they have been proven to have happened (beyond the UN statements I saw yesterday that were not quite definitive), I was wrong to have suggested the evidence would prove otherwise. Mea culpa.

Never denied.

Still. Need to eliminate all Zionists. Then there will be peace.

And a call for genocide.

Lovely.

I wouldn't be supportive of the elimination of any group of people without much more granular information, but how is this different than calling for the mass elimination of Hamas? You understand that Zionism is viewed as an unapologetically violent, vicious, inhumane, and racist ideology, right?

Zionism is abhorrent. It's NOT simply about creating and sustaining a Jewish homeland, unless you want to pretend that the ends justify the means - no matter how violent, viciously cruel, inhumane and racist those means were/are.

Hamas is obviously abhorrent, as well. But let's not pretend that subjugated people seeking any means necessary[u] to try to achieve their goals isn't an accusation that can comfortably describe the actions of both of these groups. In fact, Zionism fathered modern day terrorism. It's a fact. If you dispute that, go cry and pound sand about 10/7 elsewhere.

My, what a contortionist you are!

You called for genocide of Zionists, which includes virtually every Israeli.

So the equivalent is not, as you argue, calling for the elimination of Hamas; rather, the equivalent would be calling for genocide of Palestinians.

Evil, hypocritical, and not particularly capable, all in one neat little package.

Thanks for so ably demonstrating the true colors and the limitations of the pro-Palestinian movement. Much appreciated.

Also, to add, I believe it's possible to be Israeli, support the right of Israel to exist, and yet not be a racist, intolerant, POS Zionist. In fact, I hope that most of Israel is comprised of people like that - proud Israelis who don't support the apartheid, war crime actions of their government.

If you support the right of Israel to exist, you’re a Zionist. Congrats/ So which is it?

If supporting the right of Israel is what definitionally makes one a Zionist then it's time to stop demonizing and denigrating the term and using it as a pejorative, because for example if you support a two state solution that also makes you a zionist. Meanwhile, if you do not believe in the right of Israel to exist, that makes you a supporter of ethnic cleansing. Or, do words just not mean anything anymore and it's all empty vicious rhetoric?

Completely illogical BS. Israel ethnically cleansed the Palestinians brutally and viciously. A one-state solution would not mean anyone currently living in Israel would be ethnically cleansed. It just means Zionists would be on the same footing as Palestinians. Equality seems like oppression if you expect supremacy. Having to accept full equality for all is hardly ethnic cleansing.

Reading your own illogical "response" explains why you think the original comment was illogical - it's because you don't understand logic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone in this thread want to offer a Mae culpa for denying the rapes that occurred that the U.N. confirmed? Both on 10/7 and in captivity? Anyone?

Yeah, I do. If they have been proven to have happened (beyond the UN statements I saw yesterday that were not quite definitive), I was wrong to have suggested the evidence would prove otherwise. Mea culpa.

Never denied.

Still. Need to eliminate all Zionists. Then there will be peace.

And a call for genocide.

Lovely.

I wouldn't be supportive of the elimination of any group of people without much more granular information, but how is this different than calling for the mass elimination of Hamas? You understand that Zionism is viewed as an unapologetically violent, vicious, inhumane, and racist ideology, right?

Zionism is abhorrent. It's NOT simply about creating and sustaining a Jewish homeland, unless you want to pretend that the ends justify the means - no matter how violent, viciously cruel, inhumane and racist those means were/are.

Hamas is obviously abhorrent, as well. But let's not pretend that subjugated people seeking any means necessary[u] to try to achieve their goals isn't an accusation that can comfortably describe the actions of both of these groups. In fact, Zionism fathered modern day terrorism. It's a fact. If you dispute that, go cry and pound sand about 10/7 elsewhere.

My, what a contortionist you are!

You called for genocide of Zionists, which includes virtually every Israeli.

So the equivalent is not, as you argue, calling for the elimination of Hamas; rather, the equivalent would be calling for genocide of Palestinians.

Evil, hypocritical, and not particularly capable, all in one neat little package.

Thanks for so ably demonstrating the true colors and the limitations of the pro-Palestinian movement. Much appreciated.

I think you (willfully?) misrepresent the PP's position. Palestinians have and have always had rights. Under UN Resolution 194, they have the right of return or fair compensation for their stolen property. Their brutal eviction and removal to make way for the state of Israel was undeniably ethnic cleansing. If you support what Zionists have done (and continue to do) to the Palestinians, you can't credibly condemn 10/7.

The problem now is what to do about a long and ongoing history of genocidal Zionist atrocities, Palestinian subjugation, and outbursts of Palestinian rage. Relations between the two groups are as bad as they've been in 76 years, and nobody has yet come up with a workable solution.

I think you (willfully) are trying to redirect the conversation away from the key point: the PP wrote "Need to eliminate all Zionists."

That's unambiguous.

As for the rest, your formulation is, of course, ludicrously one-sided, neglecting (among other things) the Palestinian/Arab war of annihilation that gave rise to the eviction of Palestinians.

Spare us the Palestinians-as-innocents narrative. Plenty of blame to go around.

Where exactly does she say that? I have not seen that quote. She described Zionism as an abhorrent philosophy. I agree. Zionism is racist and ethno-supremacist and is used to justify atrocities toward the Palestinians with the goal of privileging their own group. One can and should combat Zionism the same way one can and should combat white supremacy. That doesn't mean the same thing as "eliminating all Zionists" or "eliminating all white supremacists." It means countering the ideology at every opportunity with more palatable narratives and protecting where possible the erasure of their victims. It means trying to change hearts and minds rather than trying to kill off the people who hold these views.

As for the rest being one-sided, please consider that the Zionist narrative stems from a supremacist worldview that is very carefully constructed. Why do you think Israel refuses to release its archives from the time of the Nakba? What is it trying to hide? And why are Israeli historians such as Ilan Pappe and Teddy Katz publicly and viciously attacked when they provide carefully and painstakingly collected narratives from Zionist veterans? Ilan Pappe left Israel because he felt unsafe there, and Teddy Katz's once-promising academic career was completely destroyed. Why does Israel assassinate truth-telling journalists and writers? Why are journalists restricted from visiting Gaza, and why are the few embedded with the IDF in Gaza not allowed to communicate with Palestinians and only allowed to visit the places the IDF allows them to visit? When you limit yourself to information and talking points provided only by one side, perhaps it is your viewpoint that is "ludicrously one-sided"?

Take a scroll back

"Still. Need to eliminate all Zionists. Then there will be peace."

Do you wonder why Jews are feeling skittish right now - and why many of us are feeling strongly that Israel needs to exist as a safe place for Jews who aren't safe elsewhere? Even if we detest the current Israeli government - we also think Israel should exist. And you want to "eliminate" us.

Lol I know you don't wonder. Don't bother answering.

It is antisemitic to pretend that all Jews feel the same way. I and most of my Jewish friends hate Israel, are embarrassed by its existence, and don't think it should exist in its current form. Israel must allow the Palestinians the right of return, compensate them for all that it has stolen from them, and then try to move forward as a true democracy. Israel has a lot of work to do in terms of reconciliation and healing.

Zero percent chance that this is real.

It could be real. Dissent is very Jewish and I’ve seen a few Jews who don’t like Israel. Sanders is one of them

"Don't like" Israeli government actions? Sure.

"Hate Israel"? Not a chance that this was written by a Jew.

Sockpuppeting Palestine fangurl all day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone in this thread want to offer a Mae culpa for denying the rapes that occurred that the U.N. confirmed? Both on 10/7 and in captivity? Anyone?

Yeah, I do. If they have been proven to have happened (beyond the UN statements I saw yesterday that were not quite definitive), I was wrong to have suggested the evidence would prove otherwise. Mea culpa.

Never denied.

Still. Need to eliminate all Zionists. Then there will be peace.

And a call for genocide.

Lovely.

I wouldn't be supportive of the elimination of any group of people without much more granular information, but how is this different than calling for the mass elimination of Hamas? You understand that Zionism is viewed as an unapologetically violent, vicious, inhumane, and racist ideology, right?

Zionism is abhorrent. It's NOT simply about creating and sustaining a Jewish homeland, unless you want to pretend that the ends justify the means - no matter how violent, viciously cruel, inhumane and racist those means were/are.

Hamas is obviously abhorrent, as well. But let's not pretend that subjugated people seeking any means necessary[u] to try to achieve their goals isn't an accusation that can comfortably describe the actions of both of these groups. In fact, Zionism fathered modern day terrorism. It's a fact. If you dispute that, go cry and pound sand about 10/7 elsewhere.

My, what a contortionist you are!

You called for genocide of Zionists, which includes virtually every Israeli.

So the equivalent is not, as you argue, calling for the elimination of Hamas; rather, the equivalent would be calling for genocide of Palestinians.

Evil, hypocritical, and not particularly capable, all in one neat little package.

Thanks for so ably demonstrating the true colors and the limitations of the pro-Palestinian movement. Much appreciated.

Also, to add, I believe it's possible to be Israeli, support the right of Israel to exist, and yet not be a racist, intolerant, POS Zionist. In fact, I hope that most of Israel is comprised of people like that - proud Israelis who don't support the apartheid, war crime actions of their government.

If you support the right of Israel to exist, you’re a Zionist. Congrats/ So which is it?

If supporting the right of Israel is what definitionally makes one a Zionist then it's time to stop demonizing and denigrating the term and using it as a pejorative, because for example if you support a two state solution that also makes you a zionist. Meanwhile, if you do not believe in the right of Israel to exist, that makes you a supporter of ethnic cleansing. Or, do words just not mean anything anymore and it's all empty vicious rhetoric?

Completely illogical BS. Israel ethnically cleansed the Palestinians brutally and viciously. A one-state solution would not mean anyone currently living in Israel would be ethnically cleansed. It just means Zionists would be on the same footing as Palestinians. Equality seems like oppression if you expect supremacy. Having to accept full equality for all is hardly ethnic cleansing.

So one state of Palestine should exist, but Israel should not exist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone in this thread want to offer a Mae culpa for denying the rapes that occurred that the U.N. confirmed? Both on 10/7 and in captivity? Anyone?

Yeah, I do. If they have been proven to have happened (beyond the UN statements I saw yesterday that were not quite definitive), I was wrong to have suggested the evidence would prove otherwise. Mea culpa.

Never denied.

Still. Need to eliminate all Zionists. Then there will be peace.

And a call for genocide.

Lovely.

I wouldn't be supportive of the elimination of any group of people without much more granular information, but how is this different than calling for the mass elimination of Hamas? You understand that Zionism is viewed as an unapologetically violent, vicious, inhumane, and racist ideology, right?

Zionism is abhorrent. It's NOT simply about creating and sustaining a Jewish homeland, unless you want to pretend that the ends justify the means - no matter how violent, viciously cruel, inhumane and racist those means were/are.

Hamas is obviously abhorrent, as well. But let's not pretend that subjugated people seeking any means necessary[u] to try to achieve their goals isn't an accusation that can comfortably describe the actions of both of these groups. In fact, Zionism fathered modern day terrorism. It's a fact. If you dispute that, go cry and pound sand about 10/7 elsewhere.

My, what a contortionist you are!

You called for genocide of Zionists, which includes virtually every Israeli.

So the equivalent is not, as you argue, calling for the elimination of Hamas; rather, the equivalent would be calling for genocide of Palestinians.

Evil, hypocritical, and not particularly capable, all in one neat little package.

Thanks for so ably demonstrating the true colors and the limitations of the pro-Palestinian movement. Much appreciated.

Also, to add, I believe it's possible to be Israeli, support the right of Israel to exist, and yet not be a racist, intolerant, POS Zionist. In fact, I hope that most of Israel is comprised of people like that - proud Israelis who don't support the apartheid, war crime actions of their government.

If you support the right of Israel to exist, you’re a Zionist. Congrats/ So which is it?

NP

So a Zionist supports the right of Israel to exist by any means necessary? By forcible eviction of the Palestinians if it comes down to it? Just making sure I understand the defn and at what point one stops being a Zionist? I think I am falling off the bandwagon. I used to believe Israel had a right to exist. For the most part, I still do. I just don’t think I can support an Israeli state over Palestinian lives and dignity.

Do you know what percentage of Israelis are zionists? Do you know what percentage of Jewish people are zionists? Do you know what percentage of American Jews are zionists? Any reputable data anyone can point me to? Wondering if everyone shares the definition of “Zionism” when they call themselves a zionist or not.

Technically, the Arab Israelis are Zionists as well since they want Israel to exist . There are Palestinian Muslims, Christians, Druze, and Muslim Bedouin Arabs in Israel . 20% of Israel is Arab and they all say they do not want to move to the West Bank or Gaza.

[Anonymous]

At the time of partition, the State of Israel was provided with 58% of the land (for around 30% of the population identifying as Jews), with the majority Palestinians (around 2/3 of the population) provided with 42% of the land.

The combined population of Israel and the occupied territories is now approx.

Israel: 9.4M people, of which approx. 74% are Jewish = approx. 7M Jews

Gaza and West Bank: 5.0M people (100% Palestinian), plus 2.4M non-Jews in Israel = 7.4M non-Jews

If Israel wants a durable peace, why would they stubbornly insist on 80%+ of the land for less than 1/2 the total population?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone in this thread want to offer a Mae culpa for denying the rapes that occurred that the U.N. confirmed? Both on 10/7 and in captivity? Anyone?

Yeah, I do. If they have been proven to have happened (beyond the UN statements I saw yesterday that were not quite definitive), I was wrong to have suggested the evidence would prove otherwise. Mea culpa.

Never denied.

Still. Need to eliminate all Zionists. Then there will be peace.

And a call for genocide.

Lovely.

I wouldn't be supportive of the elimination of any group of people without much more granular information, but how is this different than calling for the mass elimination of Hamas? You understand that Zionism is viewed as an unapologetically violent, vicious, inhumane, and racist ideology, right?

Zionism is abhorrent. It's NOT simply about creating and sustaining a Jewish homeland, unless you want to pretend that the ends justify the means - no matter how violent, viciously cruel, inhumane and racist those means were/are.

Hamas is obviously abhorrent, as well. But let's not pretend that subjugated people seeking any means necessary[u] to try to achieve their goals isn't an accusation that can comfortably describe the actions of both of these groups. In fact, Zionism fathered modern day terrorism. It's a fact. If you dispute that, go cry and pound sand about 10/7 elsewhere.

My, what a contortionist you are!

You called for genocide of Zionists, which includes virtually every Israeli.

So the equivalent is not, as you argue, calling for the elimination of Hamas; rather, the equivalent would be calling for genocide of Palestinians.

Evil, hypocritical, and not particularly capable, all in one neat little package.

Thanks for so ably demonstrating the true colors and the limitations of the pro-Palestinian movement. Much appreciated.

I think you (willfully?) misrepresent the PP's position. Palestinians have and have always had rights. Under UN Resolution 194, they have the right of return or fair compensation for their stolen property. Their brutal eviction and removal to make way for the state of Israel was undeniably ethnic cleansing. If you support what Zionists have done (and continue to do) to the Palestinians, you can't credibly condemn 10/7.

The problem now is what to do about a long and ongoing history of genocidal Zionist atrocities, Palestinian subjugation, and outbursts of Palestinian rage. Relations between the two groups are as bad as they've been in 76 years, and nobody has yet come up with a workable solution.

I think you (willfully) are trying to redirect the conversation away from the key point: the PP wrote "Need to eliminate all Zionists."

That's unambiguous.

As for the rest, your formulation is, of course, ludicrously one-sided, neglecting (among other things) the Palestinian/Arab war of annihilation that gave rise to the eviction of Palestinians.

Spare us the Palestinians-as-innocents narrative. Plenty of blame to go around.

Where exactly does she say that? I have not seen that quote. She described Zionism as an abhorrent philosophy. I agree. Zionism is racist and ethno-supremacist and is used to justify atrocities toward the Palestinians with the goal of privileging their own group. One can and should combat Zionism the same way one can and should combat white supremacy. That doesn't mean the same thing as "eliminating all Zionists" or "eliminating all white supremacists." It means countering the ideology at every opportunity with more palatable narratives and protecting where possible the erasure of their victims. It means trying to change hearts and minds rather than trying to kill off the people who hold these views.

As for the rest being one-sided, please consider that the Zionist narrative stems from a supremacist worldview that is very carefully constructed. Why do you think Israel refuses to release its archives from the time of the Nakba? What is it trying to hide? And why are Israeli historians such as Ilan Pappe and Teddy Katz publicly and viciously attacked when they provide carefully and painstakingly collected narratives from Zionist veterans? Ilan Pappe left Israel because he felt unsafe there, and Teddy Katz's once-promising academic career was completely destroyed. Why does Israel assassinate truth-telling journalists and writers? Why are journalists restricted from visiting Gaza, and why are the few embedded with the IDF in Gaza not allowed to communicate with Palestinians and only allowed to visit the places the IDF allows them to visit? When you limit yourself to information and talking points provided only by one side, perhaps it is your viewpoint that is "ludicrously one-sided"?

Take a scroll back

"Still. Need to eliminate all Zionists. Then there will be peace."

Do you wonder why Jews are feeling skittish right now - and why many of us are feeling strongly that Israel needs to exist as a safe place for Jews who aren't safe elsewhere? Even if we detest the current Israeli government - we also think Israel should exist. And you want to "eliminate" us.

Lol I know you don't wonder. Don't bother answering.

It is antisemitic to pretend that all Jews feel the same way. I and most of my Jewish friends hate Israel, are embarrassed by its existence, and don't think it should exist in its current form. Israel must allow the Palestinians the right of return, compensate them for all that it has stolen from them, and then try to move forward as a true democracy. Israel has a lot of work to do in terms of reconciliation and healing.

Zero percent chance that this is real.

It could be real. Dissent is very Jewish and I’ve seen a few Jews who don’t like Israel. Sanders is one of them

"Don't like" Israeli government actions? Sure.

"Hate Israel"? Not a chance that this was written by a Jew.

Sockpuppeting Palestine fangurl all day.

Using the word Jew is inappropriate . Say Jewish.

And no, you don’t have to be a sock puppet to see that many on the left that are harshly critical of Israel or anti Zionist are Jewish (Max Blumenthal, Noam Chomsky , Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein). All of these people are fully Jewish too so they aren’t just half.

You don’t need to be a sock puppet or fan girl to notice this.

American Jews aren’t all in lockstep like you like to believe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At the time of partition, the State of Israel was provided with 58% of the land (for around 30% of the population identifying as Jews), with the majority Palestinians (around 2/3 of the population) provided with 42% of the land.

The combined population of Israel and the occupied territories is now approx.

Israel: 9.4M people, of which approx. 74% are Jewish = approx. 7M Jews

Gaza and West Bank: 5.0M people (100% Palestinian), plus 2.4M non-Jews in Israel = 7.4M non-Jews

If Israel wants a durable peace, why would they stubbornly insist on 80%+ of the land for less than 1/2 the total population?

Because Israel is an expansionist state. Their plan is to make it a homeland for the worlds Jews and they aren’t done on boarding all of the worlds Jewish communities to Israel. New emigrations-Aliyahs are done every year . They want the West Bank and they take it from Palestinians with multi generational lineage and give it to New Yorkers who just are carpetbaggers who move to West Bank/Israel and settle

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The hostages are abused using wires up and down their arms. This coming from one of the Thai hostages who was realized early on and who has zero skin in this game except that he and his friends were kidnapped and held hostage until released.

At least they aren’t dead

[Anonymous]

Would you rather be tied up and kidnapped or amputated or dead or have dead children?

[Anonymous]

Hamas could do much worse if they wanted

[Anonymous]

Like beheading the Israelis since they hate Israel so much but that hasn’t happened because they want to return them alive in exchange for Palestinian prisoners. Israel keeps saying no to releasing more Palestinian prisoners (most of whom are never charged and are beaten, waterboarded, abused with far more than wired up arms ) so Hamas is saying no to releasing Israelis

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Anonymous wrote:Does anyone in this thread want to offer a Mae culpa for denying the rapes that occurred that the U.N. confirmed? Both on 10/7 and in captivity? Anyone?

Yeah, I do. If they have been proven to have happened (beyond the UN statements I saw yesterday that were not quite definitive), I was wrong to have suggested the evidence would prove otherwise. Mea culpa.

Never denied.

Still. Need to eliminate all Zionists. Then there will be peace.

And a call for genocide.

Lovely.

I wouldn't be supportive of the elimination of any group of people without much more granular information, but how is this different than calling for the mass elimination of Hamas? You understand that Zionism is viewed as an unapologetically violent, vicious, inhumane, and racist ideology, right?

Zionism is abhorrent. It's NOT simply about creating and sustaining a Jewish homeland, unless you want to pretend that the ends justify the means - no matter how violent, viciously cruel, inhumane and racist those means were/are.

Hamas is obviously abhorrent, as well. But let's not pretend that subjugated people seeking any means necessary[u] to try to achieve their goals isn't an accusation that can comfortably describe the actions of both of these groups. In fact, Zionism fathered modern day terrorism. It's a fact. If you dispute that, go cry and pound sand about 10/7 elsewhere.

My, what a contortionist you are!

You called for genocide of Zionists, which includes virtually every Israeli.

So the equivalent is not, as you argue, calling for the elimination of Hamas; rather, the equivalent would be calling for genocide of Palestinians.

Evil, hypocritical, and not particularly capable, all in one neat little package.

Thanks for so ably demonstrating the true colors and the limitations of the pro-Palestinian movement. Much appreciated.

I think you (willfully?) misrepresent the PP's position. Palestinians have and have always had rights. Under UN Resolution 194, they have the right of return or fair compensation for their stolen property. Their brutal eviction and removal to make way for the state of Israel was undeniably ethnic cleansing. If you support what Zionists have done (and continue to do) to the Palestinians, you can't credibly condemn 10/7.

The problem now is what to do about a long and ongoing history of genocidal Zionist atrocities, Palestinian subjugation, and outbursts of Palestinian rage. Relations between the two groups are as bad as they've been in 76 years, and nobody has yet come up with a workable solution.

I think you (willfully) are trying to redirect the conversation away from the key point: the PP wrote "Need to eliminate all Zionists."

That's unambiguous.

As for the rest, your formulation is, of course, ludicrously one-sided, neglecting (among other things) the Palestinian/Arab war of annihilation that gave rise to the eviction of Palestinians.

Spare us the Palestinians-as-innocents narrative. Plenty of blame to go around.

Where exactly does she say that? I have not seen that quote. She described Zionism as an abhorrent philosophy. I agree. Zionism is racist and ethno-supremacist and is used to justify atrocities toward the Palestinians with the goal of privileging their own group. One can and should combat Zionism the same way one can and should combat white supremacy. That doesn't mean the same thing as "eliminating all Zionists" or "eliminating all white supremacists." It means countering the ideology at every opportunity with more palatable narratives and protecting where possible the erasure of their victims. It means trying to change hearts and minds rather than trying to kill off the people who hold these views.

As for the rest being one-sided, please consider that the Zionist narrative stems from a supremacist worldview that is very carefully constructed. Why do you think Israel refuses to release its archives from the time of the Nakba? What is it trying to hide? And why are Israeli historians such as Ilan Pappe and Teddy Katz publicly and viciously attacked when they provide carefully and painstakingly collected narratives from Zionist veterans? Ilan Pappe left Israel because he felt unsafe there, and Teddy Katz's once-promising academic career was completely destroyed. Why does Israel assassinate truth-telling journalists and writers? Why are journalists restricted from visiting Gaza, and why are the few embedded with the IDF in Gaza not allowed to communicate with Palestinians and only allowed to visit the places the IDF allows them to visit? When you limit yourself to information and talking points provided only by one side, perhaps it is your viewpoint that is "ludicrously one-sided"?

Take a scroll back

"Still. Need to eliminate all Zionists. Then there will be peace."

Do you wonder why Jews are feeling skittish right now - and why many of us are feeling strongly that Israel needs to exist as a safe place for Jews who aren't safe elsewhere? Even if we detest the current Israeli government - we also think Israel should exist. And you want to "eliminate" us.

Lol I know you don't wonder. Don't bother answering.

It is antisemitic to pretend that all Jews feel the same way. I and most of my Jewish friends hate Israel, are embarrassed by its existence, and don't think it should exist in its current form. Israel must allow the Palestinians the right of return, compensate them for all that it has stolen from them, and then try to move forward as a true democracy. Israel has a lot of work to do in terms of reconciliation and healing.

Zero percent chance that this is real.

It could be real. Dissent is very Jewish and I’ve seen a few Jews who don’t like Israel. Sanders is one of them

"Don't like" Israeli government actions? Sure.

"Hate Israel"? Not a chance that this was written by a Jew.

Sockpuppeting Palestine fangurl all day.

Using the word Jew is inappropriate . Say Jewish.

And no, you don’t have to be a sock puppet to see that many on the left that are harshly critical of Israel or anti Zionist are Jewish (Max Blumenthal, Noam Chomsky , Bernie Sanders, Jill Stein). All of these people are fully Jewish too so they aren’t just half.

You don’t need to be a sock puppet or fan girl to notice this.

American Jews aren’t all in lockstep like you like to believe.

You just like to tokenize Jews on the extreme left. We see you.