Benefits of taking Algebra 1 in 6th grade

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t believe taking post Calculus BC math matters for admissions, and I say it as the parent of a kid who will need to find something past differential equations in high school.

The only tangible benefit of acceleration is ability to take calculus based physics early, and having a solid math framework in place. Many others do well without.

Whether or not it makes a difference, admissions at preferred colleges is a competitive selection process. All else being equal, completing math courses beyond Calc BC can only enhance an application, not diminish it.

Think about what goes into “all else:” GPA, SAT, APs, extracurriculars, coursework, jobs, volunteering, essays, athletics, first generation etc.

You simply can’t have “all else being equal”, and all these factors are more important than the most advanced math class the student took. It’s not going to diminish an application, it may help a bit on the coursework rigor, but not if the grades have Bs among them.

That’s why you have kids with Multivariable being rejected from UMD and other state schools.

No one is arguing that you should take math beyond BC calculus if you can't handle it. Presumably, a student who does well in BC calculus will go on to do well in more advanced math courses. But to say it's all worthless for college admissions is just wrong. I'll go with the college counselors have said rather than someone on this board trying to convince me or other parents of something that inherently doesn't make sense.

Nobody is saying they are worthless. If you took Algebra in 6th or 7th Colleges recommend you keep taking math during high school and often that means taking MV, DE, LA.

Upthread were links from MIT and Caltech, arguably the best stem schools in the country. They don’t mention anything about past BC classes.

Weirdly enough they say “we recommend that you pursue at least some challenging courses in areas like English, history, economics, music, and/or foreign languages”.

Shocking how they seem to value English over Multivariable!

But sure, discard what these colleges say, and go with your gut feeling and what your college counselor said. So far you haven’t shown a shred of evidence to support your assertion.

MIT wants it all. Unhooked kids need the GPA, APs across multiple domains, high SAT scores, impressive ECs, community service, and awards. MIT could fill their math and physics department many times over with kids who have stellar applications and took the top math and science courses available at their school. Do you really think that they're going to admit an unhooked TJ kid into their math or physics department who topped out at BC Calc and AP Physics C? It's also worth pointing out that earlier math and physics are going to give a kid a better chance at USAMO or USAPhO qualification, and the top few kids in the very highest math and physics classes will likely get extremely strong letters of recommendation. If your kid is likely to be one of the top kids in the school, the earlier math can only help the kid get into a school like MIT.

No school is going to specifically require post AP calc classes, because so many schools don't provide them. That's a completely different situation than a kid who has easy access to the classes but either wasn't smart enough or wasn't motivated enough to take them. AOs compare kids to other kids at the same school. If they have a lot of kids who have stellar applications plus multivariable, etc., then not having the multivariable looks worse.

Yes. Read the MIT admissions blog, they admit plenty of people that “only” took Calculus and Physics C. They still offer single variable calculus courses. Meanwhile plenty of kids who took all the dual enrollment math don’t make it.

You don’t need to go to math or physics Olympiad to be admitted, it’s not like this is the pinnacle of academics in high school.

You really like misreading things and creating strawmen, don't you? Does MIT admit plenty of people into their math and physics programs who "only" took Calculus and Physics C, but also attended a school where there are tons of kids with stellar profiles who also took several years of more advanced classes?. For the ten millionth time, we aren't talking about kids who took Calc BC and Physics C when those were the highest classes available at their school. We're also not talking about kids admitted into MIT to study something that is not particularly math heavy. We're talking about kids attending schools where almost every other kid in the top 10% is taking a post-Calc class.

I'd love to see any stats on TJ kids being admitted into physics or math at HYPSM who only took Calc BC in their senior year. I doubt that there are any.

A few post ago high level math was needed for stem, then for engineering, now only for math and physics majors. In a few posts it’s only going to be needed for Fields medalists.

You don’t have any statistics to back it up, but would “love” to see some from TJ.

There are multiple people disagreeing with you. It should be obvious that higher level math wouldn't be particularly compelling for a kid planning to major in bio or chem STEM disciplines. For engineering, it depends on the program. Some, like electrical, are very math heavy. Others are not so much.

No one has any statistics for TJ. Last year was the first in a long time where a significant number of kids graduated who took Algebra I in 8th grade. If people are being honest here, the bar for 7th grade Algebra in FCPS and LCPS is very low. Kids who don't take it until 8th grade are pretty average at math. AOs know what's available at TJ, and they expect to see kids take full advantage. Among the kids who capped out at Calc BC in 12th grade, AOs are going to treat a TJ kid, a non-TJ FCPS high school kid, and a kid attending a more rural school that offers nothing beyond Calc BC very differently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t believe taking post Calculus BC math matters for admissions, and I say it as the parent of a kid who will need to find something past differential equations in high school.

The only tangible benefit of acceleration is ability to take calculus based physics early, and having a solid math framework in place. Many others do well without.

Whether or not it makes a difference, admissions at preferred colleges is a competitive selection process. All else being equal, completing math courses beyond Calc BC can only enhance an application, not diminish it.

Think about what goes into “all else:” GPA, SAT, APs, extracurriculars, coursework, jobs, volunteering, essays, athletics, first generation etc.

You simply can’t have “all else being equal”, and all these factors are more important than the most advanced math class the student took. It’s not going to diminish an application, it may help a bit on the coursework rigor, but not if the grades have Bs among them.

That’s why you have kids with Multivariable being rejected from UMD and other state schools.

You can have “all else being equal”. Kids who cruise through all math classes with minimal work and solid As will still have the same GPA, SATs, extracurriculars, etc, regardless of the math level. It’s a different story if the more advanced math class leads to worse grades or requires more time. That isn’t always the case.

Who are these kids that are equal in everything except the math classes they took?

If all else was equal they all must have 4.0 GPA, 1600 SAT, took the same 8-12 APs across various subjects all scoring 5 at the exam. They all do the same robotics club and violin as extracurriculars, got the same awards, were part of the same high school clubs, ended up captain of the same varsity team, entered in the same national sports competitions, got the same scores. They also must have had the same summer jobs, volunteered at the same animal shelter or hospital. Also their essays were about the same quality, since they came from similar backgrounds, nothing notably different between them, they had no story to stand out.

In the end it came down to who took linear algebra! The kid that made an app, took organic chemistry or waited tables to help the family was rejected since they didn’t make it to IMO or IPhO.

You’re being ridiculous.

You completely missed the point. The only meaningful comparison is your kid if they took the highest track of math vs. your same kid if they didn't. For some kids, taking the faster track means that they need to spend more time on math homework, less time on ECs, and/or get worse grades. For other kids, there is no real time or grade difference between taking the highest track vs. a lower one. The kid would still have all of the same grades, ECs, etc. The only real difference is that they would have more and higher math and physics classes, would possibly have some national level awards, and would possibly have better teacher recommendations.

The kids who would need to cut corners elsewhere or would get worse grades on the faster math track would most likely be better off on the slower track. The kids who would cruise through the faster classes will only benefit from being on the faster track. If we're all being perfectly honest, the first kid is unlikely to be MIT math/physics program material anyway.

Poor high school students! They are now competing with the better versions of themselves from alternate universes for college admissions.

Oh good grief. The whole context here is whether taking Algebra in 6th or 7th would be beneficial for one's own child. If the kid can handle it easily without sacrificing GPA or other activities, it is beneficial. They're not "competing with better versions of themselves from alternate universes." They're instead making optimal choices based on their own interests and abilities. Kids who can easily handle advanced math will benefit from taking advanced math and will look holistically more appealing to colleges for several reasons (willing to challenge themselves, better chances at high level awards, likely better recommendations, possibly a better GPA depending on how the courses are weighted, etc.). I'm surprised that this isn't completely obvious to everyone. It's different if the math is going to be a struggle for the kid. That's why parents should think carefully about whether early algebra would be beneficial for their kid or not.

In short if you have a genius kid that can handle working three years ahead in math, everything will be fine. For the love of god, if you have kids you need to tone it down and do some introspective work on yourself. Sit down and analyze what you’re saying. Initially you said advanced math is needed for top colleges, now you’re claiming it will help with GPA and letters of recommendation. You know that other classes carry the +1 additional weight, right? And many other teachers can give recommendations.

The reality is that math in 6th grade is the result of pushy tiger parents that prepped the heck out of their kids. Fine if you want that, but it’s not needed and it won’t get the kid into MIT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t believe taking post Calculus BC math matters for admissions, and I say it as the parent of a kid who will need to find something past differential equations in high school.

The only tangible benefit of acceleration is ability to take calculus based physics early, and having a solid math framework in place. Many others do well without.

Whether or not it makes a difference, admissions at preferred colleges is a competitive selection process. All else being equal, completing math courses beyond Calc BC can only enhance an application, not diminish it.

Think about what goes into “all else:” GPA, SAT, APs, extracurriculars, coursework, jobs, volunteering, essays, athletics, first generation etc.

You simply can’t have “all else being equal”, and all these factors are more important than the most advanced math class the student took. It’s not going to diminish an application, it may help a bit on the coursework rigor, but not if the grades have Bs among them.

That’s why you have kids with Multivariable being rejected from UMD and other state schools.

No one is arguing that you should take math beyond BC calculus if you can't handle it. Presumably, a student who does well in BC calculus will go on to do well in more advanced math courses. But to say it's all worthless for college admissions is just wrong. I'll go with the college counselors have said rather than someone on this board trying to convince me or other parents of something that inherently doesn't make sense.

Nobody is saying they are worthless. If you took Algebra in 6th or 7th Colleges recommend you keep taking math during high school and often that means taking MV, DE, LA.

Upthread were links from MIT and Caltech, arguably the best stem schools in the country. They don’t mention anything about past BC classes.

Weirdly enough they say “we recommend that you pursue at least some challenging courses in areas like English, history, economics, music, and/or foreign languages”.

Shocking how they seem to value English over Multivariable!

But sure, discard what these colleges say, and go with your gut feeling and what your college counselor said. So far you haven’t shown a shred of evidence to support your assertion.

MIT wants it all. Unhooked kids need the GPA, APs across multiple domains, high SAT scores, impressive ECs, community service, and awards. MIT could fill their math and physics department many times over with kids who have stellar applications and took the top math and science courses available at their school. Do you really think that they're going to admit an unhooked TJ kid into their math or physics department who topped out at BC Calc and AP Physics C? It's also worth pointing out that earlier math and physics are going to give a kid a better chance at USAMO or USAPhO qualification, and the top few kids in the very highest math and physics classes will likely get extremely strong letters of recommendation. If your kid is likely to be one of the top kids in the school, the earlier math can only help the kid get into a school like MIT.

No school is going to specifically require post AP calc classes, because so many schools don't provide them. That's a completely different situation than a kid who has easy access to the classes but either wasn't smart enough or wasn't motivated enough to take them. AOs compare kids to other kids at the same school. If they have a lot of kids who have stellar applications plus multivariable, etc., then not having the multivariable looks worse.

Yes. Read the MIT admissions blog, they admit plenty of people that “only” took Calculus and Physics C. They still offer single variable calculus courses. Meanwhile plenty of kids who took all the dual enrollment math don’t make it.

You don’t need to go to math or physics Olympiad to be admitted, it’s not like this is the pinnacle of academics in high school.

You really like misreading things and creating strawmen, don't you? Does MIT admit plenty of people into their math and physics programs who "only" took Calculus and Physics C, but also attended a school where there are tons of kids with stellar profiles who also took several years of more advanced classes?. For the ten millionth time, we aren't talking about kids who took Calc BC and Physics C when those were the highest classes available at their school. We're also not talking about kids admitted into MIT to study something that is not particularly math heavy. We're talking about kids attending schools where almost every other kid in the top 10% is taking a post-Calc class.

I'd love to see any stats on TJ kids being admitted into physics or math at HYPSM who only took Calc BC in their senior year. I doubt that there are any.

A few post ago high level math was needed for stem, then for engineering, now only for math and physics majors. In a few posts it’s only going to be needed for Fields medalists.

You don’t have any statistics to back it up, but would “love” to see some from TJ.

There are multiple people disagreeing with you. It should be obvious that higher level math wouldn't be particularly compelling for a kid planning to major in bio or chem STEM disciplines. For engineering, it depends on the program. Some, like electrical, are very math heavy. Others are not so much.

No one has any statistics for TJ. Last year was the first in a long time where a significant number of kids graduated who took Algebra I in 8th grade. If people are being honest here, the bar for 7th grade Algebra in FCPS and LCPS is very low. Kids who don't take it until 8th grade are pretty average at math. AOs know what's available at TJ, and they expect to see kids take full advantage. Among the kids who capped out at Calc BC in 12th grade, AOs are going to treat a TJ kid, a non-TJ FCPS high school kid, and a kid attending a more rural school that offers nothing beyond Calc BC very differently.

I know you think the kid entering TJ “only” at geometry is pretty “average”, because they didn’t have a tiger parent like yourself. Math and Physics majors at top colleges are off the table because that reserved for your kid. And the only things that matter are advanced math classes, competition math, and IMO/IPhO. AOs know this, it’s common knowledge!

[Anonymous]

Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

[Anonymous]

There are plenty of students at McLean High School who are taking math beyond BC Calculus—it’s not something unique to TJ. I’m not sure why anyone would think advanced math isn’t being used as a way to gain a competitive edge; the students who are capable are absolutely pursuing it. To suggest otherwise is simply not accurate. Moreover, juniors and seniors taking these courses are doing so out of their own drive and determination, not because of “tiger parents.” These classes are far too demanding for a parent to force a 16- or 17-year-old into them without the student’s genuine commitment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of students at McLean High School who are taking math beyond BC Calculus—it’s not something unique to TJ. I’m not sure why anyone would think advanced math isn’t being used as a way to gain a competitive edge; the students who are capable are absolutely pursuing it. To suggest otherwise is simply not accurate. Moreover, juniors and seniors taking these courses are doing so out of their own drive and determination, not because of “tiger parents.” These classes are far too demanding for a parent to force a 16- or 17-year-old into them without the student’s genuine commitment.

1. This thread is about sophomores in BC calc,1 level above what your are describing

2. You don't know the Asian immigrant parent community.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of students at McLean High School who are taking math beyond BC Calculus—it’s not something unique to TJ. I’m not sure why anyone would think advanced math isn’t being used as a way to gain a competitive edge; the students who are capable are absolutely pursuing it. To suggest otherwise is simply not accurate. Moreover, juniors and seniors taking these courses are doing so out of their own drive and determination, not because of “tiger parents.” These classes are far too demanding for a parent to force a 16- or 17-year-old into them without the student’s genuine commitment.

1. This thread is about sophomores in BC calc,1 level above what your are describing

2. You don't know the Asian immigrant parent community.

The thread stopped being about sophomores in BC Calc many pages ago. Now, people are arguing whether 11th grade Calc + multivariable gives an edge in top STEM college admissions vs 12th grade Calc.

[Anonymous]

My advice if your child will be attending an IB high school, make sure you ask what the math options are for senior year.
On the IB path, a student who takes algebra in 7th will take their IB math exam at end of junior year.
And then they either have no math class left to take or they have to take an online AP class or an online dual enrollment math class or if they did SL level, they can take or audit an IB math class that’s the same one they just took but at HL level.
If your student is attending an AP high school then they usually offer plenty of AP math classes through senior year.

[Anonymous]

I think IB is where advanced math hits a roadblock. In the webinar that FCPS held for Alg in 6th grade, the head of Instructional Design (Dr. Reilly, ex-Mclean HS Principal) asked parents of kids who are zoned for IB high schools to "really think about whether this is right" for the child, almost discouraging the path for students who will pursue IB because it sets them up for having to wait several years before being able to the math IB exam (which isn't a good idea). She flat out said that it's probably "not a good idea" during the webinar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think IB is where advanced math hits a roadblock. In the webinar that FCPS held for Alg in 6th grade, the head of Instructional Design (Dr. Reilly, ex-Mclean HS Principal) asked parents of kids who are zoned for IB high schools to "really think about whether this is right" for the child, almost discouraging the path for students who will pursue IB because it sets them up for having to wait several years before being able to the math IB exam (which isn't a good idea). She flat out said that it's probably "not a good idea" during the webinar.

Well then AP should be offered at all schools. Did they say if that is going to happen? Cause word on the street is Algebra will be offered at all ES in the next few years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think IB is where advanced math hits a roadblock. In the webinar that FCPS held for Alg in 6th grade, the head of Instructional Design (Dr. Reilly, ex-Mclean HS Principal) asked parents of kids who are zoned for IB high schools to "really think about whether this is right" for the child, almost discouraging the path for students who will pursue IB because it sets them up for having to wait several years before being able to the math IB exam (which isn't a good idea). She flat out said that it's probably "not a good idea" during the webinar.

Well then AP should be offered at all schools. Did they say if that is going to happen? Cause word on the street is Algebra will be offered at all ES in the next few years.

I’ll believe that when I see it. Majority of 8th graders in this country can’t even pass pre algebra

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think IB is where advanced math hits a roadblock. In the webinar that FCPS held for Alg in 6th grade, the head of Instructional Design (Dr. Reilly, ex-Mclean HS Principal) asked parents of kids who are zoned for IB high schools to "really think about whether this is right" for the child, almost discouraging the path for students who will pursue IB because it sets them up for having to wait several years before being able to the math IB exam (which isn't a good idea). She flat out said that it's probably "not a good idea" during the webinar.

Well then AP should be offered at all schools. Did they say if that is going to happen? Cause word on the street is Algebra will be offered at all ES in the next few years.

I’ll believe that when I see it. Majority of 8th graders in this country can’t even pass pre algebra

It will be offered. Doesn’t mean all 6th graders will take it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think IB is where advanced math hits a roadblock. In the webinar that FCPS held for Alg in 6th grade, the head of Instructional Design (Dr. Reilly, ex-Mclean HS Principal) asked parents of kids who are zoned for IB high schools to "really think about whether this is right" for the child, almost discouraging the path for students who will pursue IB because it sets them up for having to wait several years before being able to the math IB exam (which isn't a good idea). She flat out said that it's probably "not a good idea" during the webinar.

Well then AP should be offered at all schools. Did they say if that is going to happen? Cause word on the street is Algebra will be offered at all ES in the next few years.

I’ll believe that when I see it. Majority of 8th graders in this country can’t even pass pre algebra

It will be offered. Doesn’t mean all 6th graders will take it.

I doubt it will be offered at many schools. Doubt it. There aren’t enough kids qualified to take it in 6th. While they could theoretically join in the 7th or 8th graders for Alg I, now the school is obligated to offer geometry and Alg II. There just aren’t enough kids filling those classes in middle school. Maybe at select schools..but widespread, no way. They can’t even find enough lunch ladies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think IB is where advanced math hits a roadblock. In the webinar that FCPS held for Alg in 6th grade, the head of Instructional Design (Dr. Reilly, ex-Mclean HS Principal) asked parents of kids who are zoned for IB high schools to "really think about whether this is right" for the child, almost discouraging the path for students who will pursue IB because it sets them up for having to wait several years before being able to the math IB exam (which isn't a good idea). She flat out said that it's probably "not a good idea" during the webinar.

Well then AP should be offered at all schools. Did they say if that is going to happen? Cause word on the street is Algebra will be offered at all ES in the next few years.

I’ll believe that when I see it. Majority of 8th graders in this country can’t even pass pre algebra

It will be offered. Doesn’t mean all 6th graders will take it.

I doubt it will be offered at many schools. Doubt it. There aren’t enough kids qualified to take it in 6th. While they could theoretically join in the 7th or 8th graders for Alg I, now the school is obligated to offer geometry and Alg II. There just aren’t enough kids filling those classes in middle school. Maybe at select schools..but widespread, no way. They can’t even find enough lunch ladies.

A good number of kids are taking Algebra 2 in MS. Geometry is available at all the MS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Great! People who don't want math acceleration can opt out, and those who want it can have it available. Everyone should choose what they think works best for their child.

Anyone who truly believes that math acceleration confers no benefit shouldn't be bothered by other kids who do accelerate.

Sounds about right.

But if you go on a public forum claiming it’s beneficial for admissions at top colleges, don’t be surprised if you get some pushback.