Advanced Students in DCPS Upper Elementary

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DCPS follow the school-wide enrichment model, so something like tracking into a different class is not officially allowed. This is something I would expect a student’s teacher to be able to accommodate through small group instruction. DCPS is shifting to a big push for a focus on math, so math instruction will likely look different in the coming years.

It may be that different schools accommodate differently, but at my kid's school there are definitely some kids who get special pullouts for advanced study and even some who attend classes with a different grade level. My kid is in K at LT. The large majority of instruction is group-based for both math and ELA and there is a huge gulf between what the top group is doing and the bottom group. But, on top of that, I know that sometimes kids in the top reading group get pulled by the school's reading coach for instruction outside the classroom. Then there is also one student who goes to 2nd grade for math.

Thanks for naming the school. I don’t understand why no one else will; most posts contain almost no personally identifiable info. Anyway, good to know LT seems to offer at least some true differentiation. How did the K kid who goes to second get picked for that?

The way it works at our school is they do the beginning of the year diagnostic testing (iReady or MAP or whatever). Then they try to form groups within the class. Ideally you'd have a group within the classroom, even if it's a very small group, and avoid having to do a room transition-- I've never understood why people are so thrilled that their child wastes time walking down the hall. If you don't, they look for kids at a similar level in the next year up, and the year after that. Of course, this all has to work around class schedules too-- so you're looking for a class that has well-matched kids and also has the subject at the same time of day. My DD was able to do this in PK4 only because she was a non-napper, she literally took zero naps ever since starting PK3, so she was able to go to the K room for math during nap block.

A lot of little kids have high reading fluency, but their comprehension and ability to respond in writing isn't that great, so they would have a hard time in a higher group, and it could be hard socially and they won't be able to meet the attention span and behavioral expectations. So again, the ideal thing is to be with kids of similar age AND similar ability so that the placement will be socially and developmentally appropriate as well as academically beneficial.

This is exactly right. A lot of smart kindergarten to second graders are way ahead on reading, but almost none are equally ahead on writing. Unless your first grader can respond to questions in correctly written multi-sentence paragraphs, then they should be doing grade level work. It’s public school, some content will be easier than other, but most kids still have learning to do. I would focus on having the teacher work on that with your child, not assume that their classroom isn’t the correct place to be.

The teacher cannot work on that with my kid because she is focused on teaching kids who cannot read to sound out words. There are more of them, and it is a much higher priority. I would love for the teacher to be doing that.

Our Title 1 has either two teachers or a teacher and full time aide per grade, plus they bring in the subject matter learning specialists for above and below grade small groups. Never have had more than 18 kids per class. Perhaps you need to find a school with a different administration that focuses on different priorities.

Or my kid can just go to a different classroom for some subjects....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the level of shock and disbelief in this thread is showing is that it’s impossible to generalize, and one family’s experience at one school could be vastly different than another school. It also highlights the importance of really prioritizing and digging hard into the priorities, systems and structures, and leadership at the individual school level. It’s REALLY hard to know what questions to ask when you’re at the pre-K level, but the good news is DC has a lottery and often seats open up in elementary grades.

+1

This thread is making me happy that we're just going with our neighborhood school for PK-3 rather than figuring out what school he'll need later. I don't know what to look for yet!

[Anonymous]

Our experience at Thomson (title 1 school) has been that they do differentiation very well. One metric they have is improving the growth of every student so they want the high and low achievers to progress. Factors why they are able to do this well include: small class sizes, teacher & aide in every class, large support staff includes reading specialists, ESL teachers, behavior specialists, social workers, speech therapists, and counselors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DCPS follow the school-wide enrichment model, so something like tracking into a different class is not officially allowed. This is something I would expect a student’s teacher to be able to accommodate through small group instruction. DCPS is shifting to a big push for a focus on math, so math instruction will likely look different in the coming years.

It may be that different schools accommodate differently, but at my kid's school there are definitely some kids who get special pullouts for advanced study and even some who attend classes with a different grade level. My kid is in K at LT. The large majority of instruction is group-based for both math and ELA and there is a huge gulf between what the top group is doing and the bottom group. But, on top of that, I know that sometimes kids in the top reading group get pulled by the school's reading coach for instruction outside the classroom. Then there is also one student who goes to 2nd grade for math.

Thanks for naming the school. I don’t understand why no one else will; most posts contain almost no personally identifiable info. Anyway, good to know LT seems to offer at least some true differentiation. How did the K kid who goes to second get picked for that?

The way it works at our school is they do the beginning of the year diagnostic testing (iReady or MAP or whatever). Then they try to form groups within the class. Ideally you'd have a group within the classroom, even if it's a very small group, and avoid having to do a room transition-- I've never understood why people are so thrilled that their child wastes time walking down the hall. If you don't, they look for kids at a similar level in the next year up, and the year after that. Of course, this all has to work around class schedules too-- so you're looking for a class that has well-matched kids and also has the subject at the same time of day. My DD was able to do this in PK4 only because she was a non-napper, she literally took zero naps ever since starting PK3, so she was able to go to the K room for math during nap block.

A lot of little kids have high reading fluency, but their comprehension and ability to respond in writing isn't that great, so they would have a hard time in a higher group, and it could be hard socially and they won't be able to meet the attention span and behavioral expectations. So again, the ideal thing is to be with kids of similar age AND similar ability so that the placement will be socially and developmentally appropriate as well as academically beneficial.

This is exactly right. A lot of smart kindergarten to second graders are way ahead on reading, but almost none are equally ahead on writing. Unless your first grader can respond to questions in correctly written multi-sentence paragraphs, then they should be doing grade level work. It’s public school, some content will be easier than other, but most kids still have learning to do. I would focus on having the teacher work on that with your child, not assume that their classroom isn’t the correct place to be.

The teacher cannot work on that with my kid because she is focused on teaching kids who cannot read to sound out words. There are more of them, and it is a much higher priority. I would love for the teacher to be doing that.

Our Title 1 has either two teachers or a teacher and full time aide per grade, plus they bring in the subject matter learning specialists for above and below grade small groups. Never have had more than 18 kids per class. Perhaps you need to find a school with a different administration that focuses on different priorities.

Or my kid can just go to a different classroom for some subjects....

Well for us, I prefer this system. My kid is advanced, but inconsistently so. If she’s 3 levels ahead in reading but at the high end of grade level for writing, the next grade level up is better, but still not exact. Small groups give more customization than grade level work a full grade ahead. But nothing is ever exactly perfect and what works, works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm so sorry to hear all of this! Our Title I had been pulling my DD out for advanced reading, either 1:1 or small group, since PK4. Never heard anything about it not being allowed. They seem happy to do it, and I've always thought the teachers were good and cared about her engagement. They clearly cannot just teach to the middle-- the ability range is vast so that would never work. I wish she had more of a peer group but that's not something they can control in the short term.

The ability range will be an ocean by the time your kid gets to the upper grades. She won’t be pulled out for anything and will be stuck on a computer if she is lucky. If not, she will be asked to be the helper and help the rest of the class who are below grade level.

My kid is in the upper grades and is pulled out daily. She has 1:1 or works with a small mixed age group of upper grades students. I said the pullouts began in PK4, not that she is in PK4.

Who pulls her out? Given that schools can barely keep up with IEP
mandated 1:1 pullouts, I have a hard time believing they do non-mandated pullouts on a regular basis.

The pull-out is with a person whose title is "instructional coach". It's a small group that meets at a little table by a window in a hallway. This is how they're able to provide differentiation for a bunch of kids with different classroom assignments in one session, so it's pretty efficient. There's a day of the week when the various class schedules don't mesh so my DD meets 1:1 instead. My DD is ahead in some domains and not ahead in others, so this is a very good approach for her. I'm happy that this was feasible for the kids, I know it took a bit of logistical planning but the school seemed eager to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the level of shock and disbelief in this thread is showing is that it’s impossible to generalize, and one family’s experience at one school could be vastly different than another school. It also highlights the importance of really prioritizing and digging hard into the priorities, systems and structures, and leadership at the individual school level. It’s REALLY hard to know what questions to ask when you’re at the pre-K level, but the good news is DC has a lottery and often seats open up in elementary grades.

+1

This thread is making me happy that we're just going with our neighborhood school for PK-3 rather than figuring out what school he'll need later. I don't know what to look for yet!

Oh, 100%. Plus, not only will what your kid needs change, but the schools may change too, in between now and then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm so sorry to hear all of this! Our Title I had been pulling my DD out for advanced reading, either 1:1 or small group, since PK4. Never heard anything about it not being allowed. They seem happy to do it, and I've always thought the teachers were good and cared about her engagement. They clearly cannot just teach to the middle-- the ability range is vast so that would never work. I wish she had more of a peer group but that's not something they can control in the short term.

The ability range will be an ocean by the time your kid gets to the upper grades. She won’t be pulled out for anything and will be stuck on a computer if she is lucky. If not, she will be asked to be the helper and help the rest of the class who are below grade level.

My kid is in the upper grades and is pulled out daily. She has 1:1 or works with a small mixed age group of upper grades students. I said the pullouts began in PK4, not that she is in PK4.

Who pulls her out? Given that schools can barely keep up with IEP
mandated 1:1 pullouts, I have a hard time believing they do non-mandated pullouts on a regular basis.

The pull-out is with a person whose title is "instructional coach". It's a small group that meets at a little table by a window in a hallway. This is how they're able to provide differentiation for a bunch of kids with different classroom assignments in one session, so it's pretty efficient. There's a day of the week when the various class schedules don't mesh so my DD meets 1:1 instead. My DD is ahead in some domains and not ahead in others, so this is a very good approach for her. I'm happy that this was feasible for the kids, I know it took a bit of logistical planning but the school seemed eager to do it.

And, I will say, this means that the parents of 5 kids are reasonable happy and only one person has to do a lesson plan and teach them. Rather than each classroom teacher doing the same thing separately and the kids not having a group experience. Of course it's only possible because the logistics work out and because there's a group of kids at a similar level-- that's pretty much happenstance.

[Anonymous]

it my experience NO. we were at a highly rated charter in NE from Pk-3rd and at a highly rated DCPS for 4th & 5th. Were moving on to private for middle for a more academically rich environment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the level of shock and disbelief in this thread is showing is that it’s impossible to generalize, and one family’s experience at one school could be vastly different than another school. It also highlights the importance of really prioritizing and digging hard into the priorities, systems and structures, and leadership at the individual school level. It’s REALLY hard to know what questions to ask when you’re at the pre-K level, but the good news is DC has a lottery and often seats open up in elementary grades.

+1

This thread is making me happy that we're just going with our neighborhood school for PK-3 rather than figuring out what school he'll need later. I don't know what to look for yet!

Oh, 100%. Plus, not only will what your kid needs change, but the schools may change too, in between now and then.

Yes, development can be uneven. My 3rd grader was a late reader, but is now reading above grade level. Similarly, was barely at grade level in math for the last couple of years, but is now leaping ahead. Some of this was pandemic related, but there was no indication in pre-K and K that they'd be working above grade level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:it my experience NO. we were at a highly rated charter in NE from Pk-3rd and at a highly rated DCPS for 4th & 5th. Were moving on to private for middle for a more academically rich environment.

private high schools are generally not as rigorous as public high schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the level of shock and disbelief in this thread is showing is that it’s impossible to generalize, and one family’s experience at one school could be vastly different than another school. It also highlights the importance of really prioritizing and digging hard into the priorities, systems and structures, and leadership at the individual school level. It’s REALLY hard to know what questions to ask when you’re at the pre-K level, but the good news is DC has a lottery and often seats open up in elementary grades.

+1

This thread is making me happy that we're just going with our neighborhood school for PK-3 rather than figuring out what school he'll need later. I don't know what to look for yet!

Oh, 100%. Plus, not only will what your kid needs change, but the schools may change too, in between now and then.

Yes, development can be uneven. My 3rd grader was a late reader, but is now reading above grade level. Similarly, was barely at grade level in math for the last couple of years, but is now leaping ahead. Some of this was pandemic related, but there was no indication in pre-K and K that they'd be working above grade level.

Right. Unless you have actual IQ testing that shows your child in the highly gifted range, it’s NBD if they are within a year or two either way of “grade level.” They don’t need special instruction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the level of shock and disbelief in this thread is showing is that it’s impossible to generalize, and one family’s experience at one school could be vastly different than another school. It also highlights the importance of really prioritizing and digging hard into the priorities, systems and structures, and leadership at the individual school level. It’s REALLY hard to know what questions to ask when you’re at the pre-K level, but the good news is DC has a lottery and often seats open up in elementary grades.

+1

This thread is making me happy that we're just going with our neighborhood school for PK-3 rather than figuring out what school he'll need later. I don't know what to look for yet!

Oh, 100%. Plus, not only will what your kid needs change, but the schools may change too, in between now and then.

Yes, development can be uneven. My 3rd grader was a late reader, but is now reading above grade level. Similarly, was barely at grade level in math for the last couple of years, but is now leaping ahead. Some of this was pandemic related, but there was no indication in pre-K and K that they'd be working above grade level.

This. What happens is the other kids catch up. Being a very fluent reader in K does not mean you are actually smarter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the level of shock and disbelief in this thread is showing is that it’s impossible to generalize, and one family’s experience at one school could be vastly different than another school. It also highlights the importance of really prioritizing and digging hard into the priorities, systems and structures, and leadership at the individual school level. It’s REALLY hard to know what questions to ask when you’re at the pre-K level, but the good news is DC has a lottery and often seats open up in elementary grades.

+1

This thread is making me happy that we're just going with our neighborhood school for PK-3 rather than figuring out what school he'll need later. I don't know what to look for yet!

Oh, 100%. Plus, not only will what your kid needs change, but the schools may change too, in between now and then.

Yes, development can be uneven. My 3rd grader was a late reader, but is now reading above grade level. Similarly, was barely at grade level in math for the last couple of years, but is now leaping ahead. Some of this was pandemic related, but there was no indication in pre-K and K that they'd be working above grade level.

Right. Unless you have actual IQ testing that shows your child in the highly gifted range, it’s NBD if they are within a year or two either way of “grade level.” They don’t need special instruction.

In a class in which most kids are not at grade level, a first grader reading at a 3rd or 4th grade level - who may not be 'highly gifted' - can still be 3-4 years ahead of most of their classmates. Hard to teach that range.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:it my experience NO. we were at a highly rated charter in NE from Pk-3rd and at a highly rated DCPS for 4th & 5th. Were moving on to private for middle for a more academically rich environment.

private high schools are generally not as rigorous as public high schools.

I said middle school, not thinking that far ahead yet

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you have a student who is working above grade level in a few areas, how does DCPS differentiate and accommodate their learning needs in upper elementary, if at all? For example, if a 3rd grader is currently doing 5th grade math, what would they do when they get to 4th and 5th grade? Would they be able to continue learning new math that is typically taught in middle school and how is this done - through small groups, pull outs, computer programs, or something else?

Giving our perspective after having been through this with a kid who is now in middle school (DCPS). Our school (Ward 3) did acknowledge that our child was far ahead (in math) and did their best to help. This was a kid who was probably ready for Algebra in 4th or 5th and qualified for the USAMO this year. But given restricted budgets, logistics and personnel, what they could actually do was limited -- a few worksheets, being the teacher's helper, a few pullouts where a computer was provided etc. Middle school has been much better, if only for the range of available options. However, while this may be different for every child, it was enough for ours, who is thriving in middle school.