Dartmouth Announces Test Scores Required Starting Next Year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good. There may not be much difference between at 1500 and a 1600, but a 1200 does speak to the ability of a kid with a great GPA to succeed in a competitive college environment

It really doesn't. My kid -who has not tested yet- has a fantastic GPA. Going in cold to an SAT or ACT - who knows what score will be obtained? But one thing I know for sure, we don't have the money for a fancy prep (yes, we'll do Khan, etc. but that's not personalized like a one-on-one tutor is). And with the expected AP courseload, plus ECs/Sports, and working, there is not a lot of time left over in the day as it is. So those scores represent an "extra" and ability to prepare for the test, not ability.

I have sat for multiple standardized tests in my day: HS, grad school, professional license. And the ones I did best on were the ones where I took courses, had time to prepare, etc. There is a direct correlation between those things and outcomes. If you don't have the time/money for the former, you're not going to do as well on the latter.

The bolded is LITERALLY incongruent with standardized testing of the type involved here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From The NY Times:

‘Convinced by the data’
Dartmouth College announced this morning that it would again require applicants to submit standardized test scores, starting next year. It’s a significant development because other selective colleges are now deciding whether to do so. In today’s newsletter, I’ll tell you the story behind Dartmouth’s decision.

Training future leaders
Last summer, Sian Beilock — a cognitive scientist who had previously run Barnard College in New York — became the president of Dartmouth. After arriving, she asked a few Dartmouth professors to do an internal study on standardized tests. Like many other colleges during the Covid pandemic, Dartmouth dropped its requirement that applicants submit an SAT or ACT score. With the pandemic over and students again able to take the tests, Dartmouth’s admissions team was thinking about reinstating the requirement. Beilock wanted to know what the evidence showed.

“Our business is looking at data and research and understanding the implications it has,” she told me.

Three Dartmouth economists and a sociologist then dug into the numbers. One of their main findings did not surprise them: Test scores were a better predictor than high school grades — or student essays and teacher recommendations — of how well students would fare at Dartmouth. The evidence of this relationship is large and growing, as I explained in a recent Times article.

A second finding was more surprising. During the pandemic, Dartmouth switched to a test-optional policy, in which applicants could choose whether to submit their SAT and ACT scores. And this policy was harming lower-income applicants in a specific way.

The researchers were able to analyze the test scores even of students who had not submitted them to Dartmouth. (Colleges can see the scores after the admissions process is finished.) Many lower-income students, it turned out, had made a strategic mistake.

The exterior of a brick building with a large clock tower. Snow covers the ground in front of the building.
Dartmouth College in Hanover, N.H. Caleb Kenna for The New York Times
They withheld test scores that would have helped them get into Dartmouth. They wrongly believed that their scores were too low, when in truth the admissions office would have judged the scores to be a sign that students had overcome a difficult environment and could thrive at Dartmouth.

As the four professors — Elizabeth Cascio, Bruce Sacerdote, Doug Staiger and Michele Tine — wrote in a memo, referring to the SAT’s 1,600-point scale, “There are hundreds of less-advantaged applicants with scores in the 1,400 range who should be submitting scores to identify themselves to admissions, but do not under test-optional policies.” Some of these applicants were rejected because the admissions office could not be confident about their academic qualifications. The students would have probably been accepted had they submitted their test scores, Lee Coffin, Dartmouth’s dean of admissions, told me.

That finding, as much as any other, led to Dartmouth’s announcement this morning. “Our goal at Dartmouth is academic excellence in the service of training the broadest swath of future leaders,” Beilock told me. “I’m convinced by the data that this will help us do that.”

It’s worth acknowledging a crucial part of this story. Dartmouth admits disadvantaged students who have scores that are lower on average than those of privileged students. The college doesn’t apologize for that. Students from poor neighborhoods or troubled high schools have effectively been running with wind in their face. They are not competing fairly with affluent teenagers.

A chart shows the share of students admitted to Dartmouth by SAT test scores and student advantage. Disadvantaged students with lower test scores are more likely to be admitted to Dartmouth than advantaged students with similar scores.
Source: Cascio, Sacerdote, Staiger, Tine (Dartmouth) | Disadvantaged students are low-income, first-generation college or enrolled at a challenged high school. | By The New York Times
“We’re looking for the kids who are excelling in their environment. We know society is unequal,” Beilock said. “Kids that are excelling in their environment, we think, are a good bet to excel at Dartmouth and out in the world.” The admissions office will judge an applicant’s environment partly by comparing his or her test score with the score distribution at the applicant’s high schools, Coffin said. In some cases, even an SAT score well below 1,400 can help an application.

Questions and answers
In our conversations, I asked Beilock and her colleagues about several common criticisms of standardized tests, and they said that they did not find the criticisms persuasive.

For instance, many critics on the political left argue the tests are racially or economically biased, but Beilock said the evidence didn’t support those claims. “The research suggests this tool is helpful in finding students we might otherwise miss,” she said.

I also asked whether she was worried that conservative critics of affirmative action might use test scores to accuse Dartmouth of violating the recent Supreme Court ruling barring race-conscious admissions. She was not. Dartmouth can legally admit a diverse class while using test scores as one part of its holistic admissions process, she said. I’ve heard similar sentiments from leaders at other colleges that have reinstated the test requirement, including Georgetown and M.I.T.

And I asked Beilock and her colleagues whether fewer students might now apply to Dartmouth. Coffin, the admissions dean, replied that such an outcome might be OK. He noted that the test-optional policy since 2020 had not led to a more diverse pool of applicants and that Dartmouth already received more than enough applications — 31,000 this year, for 1,200 first-year slots. “I don’t think volume is the holy grail,” he said.

Finally, I asked Beilock whether she was satisfied with Dartmouth’s level of economic diversity, which is slightly below that of most similarly elite colleges. She said no. “We have aspirations to bring it up,” she said. Reinstating the test requirement, she believes, can help Dartmouth do so.

For more: Compare economic diversity at hundreds of colleges through our College Access Index.

Kudos to Dartmouth. This is good for academically driven kids coming from middle income families

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My UMC kid said this means she needs to get her 1530 up to 1550. I don't think so .. do you?

No.

It means her 1530 has returned to having value like it did pre-test optional.

Also means that the score will be evaluated in context. The "value" will be based on zip code and HS resources.

A low income kid with a 1400 has just a good a chance at Dartmouth as a UMC kid with a 1530.

Are you OK with that?

Our magnate schools provide SAT prep to all students on free lunch level family income but not to muddle class families. Many middle class students can't afford private prep centers, they are at a disadvantage.

With diligence, a student can work through many prep materials for the cost of a few paperback books. The hardest part is figuring out one's own patterns of mistakes. A college educated adult in the home can provide this assistance.

In our school district, a very minimal level of summer prep class (Khan Academy plus free support from a math teacher to answer questions) was provided to all who registered.

As a taxpayer, if you want your schools to offer SAT prep for all students, you can contact your school board. If you are polite rather than resentful, they may consider expanding the program.

Huge difference between "self prep with books/Khan academy" and SAT private 1-1 tutors. Someone with time and money (the middle class kid may not have either---as they might be working a PT job, baby-sitting family members, etc) can figure out their pattern of mistakes with one baseline test and 2-4 hours with a private tutor. My own kid did that, went from 1330 to 1490 with just that. All future tutoring still landed my kid at/around 1490/1500.
Had my kid tried to "figure out the tricks/pattern of mistakes" tehmselves, it would have taken much longer. Instead my kid invested 4 hours for testing and 4 hours for tutoring and they were at their ultimate score 160 points higher.
But we stopped there, many rich take it further and spend another 20-40 hours to tutoring to get that 1550. Which we likely could have gotten, with focus on verbal. We chose not to do it and focus on more important things---like enjoying life and writing the essays. But we could have spend another $3-4K and lots of time and gotten a much better score. THat's what the rich do.

So recognize the privilege of not being middle class and how much easier it is to achieve a better score.

[Anonymous]

My DC with 1550 was rejected by ED for Fall 2024 admission. Feeling cheated!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really sucks for us if they go back to test required.

DC SAT score 1580, applied to college last year. So many colleges were TO. DC got rejected to T15. I do wonder if TO hurt DC.

DC#2 is a sophomore, not as high achieving and will probably have an SAT score around 1300 mark. TO would be great for this DC.

I know life is unfair, but this really stinks for my kids.

There will still be plenty of schools that are TO in 2 years. Some have gone test blind and do not plan to change---most of those were moving to test blind well before covid hit.

Interestingly, why would you want your "DC#2 not as high achieving" to be at a T25 school? If their SAT is 1300 and as you state they are not as high achieving, they don't seem like the ideal candidate for a T25. Wouldn't they actually be better off at a school that is a much better fit for them? Most non-high achievers will sink at schools that are filled with "high achievers". I have a "high achiever" who is not a striver and I'm actually glad they didn't get into a T20 school, as I think the 30-40 ranked school they are at is a much better environment for them

This! Previous poster who gave the example of these two kids, can you come back and give us your reasoning? Why do you want your 1300/not achiever in a top university filled with high achievers?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Really sucks for us if they go back to test required.

DC SAT score 1580, applied to college last year. So many colleges were TO. DC got rejected to T15. I do wonder if TO hurt DC.

DC#2 is a sophomore, not as high achieving and will probably have an SAT score around 1300 mark. TO would be great for this DC.

I know life is unfair, but this really stinks for my kids.

There will still be plenty of schools that are TO in 2 years. Some have gone test blind and do not plan to change---most of those were moving to test blind well before covid hit.

Please understand that plans DO change. If college's determine that Test Optional Or Test Blind policies actually hurt URM or low income students disproportionally they will change their policies accordingly. This is uncharted territory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My UMC kid said this means she needs to get her 1530 up to 1550. I don't think so .. do you?

No.

It means her 1530 has returned to having value like it did pre-test optional.

Also means that the score will be evaluated in context. The "value" will be based on zip code and HS resources.

A low income kid with a 1400 has just a good a chance at Dartmouth as a UMC kid with a 1530.

Are you OK with that?

Our magnate schools provide SAT prep to all students on free lunch level family income but not to muddle class families. Many middle class students can't afford private prep centers, they are at a disadvantage.

With diligence, a student can work through many prep materials for the cost of a few paperback books. The hardest part is figuring out one's own patterns of mistakes. A college educated adult in the home can provide this assistance.

In our school district, a very minimal level of summer prep class (Khan Academy plus free support from a math teacher to answer questions) was provided to all who registered.

As a taxpayer, if you want your schools to offer SAT prep for all students, you can contact your school board. If you are polite rather than resentful, they may consider expanding the program.

Huge difference between "self prep with books/Khan academy" and SAT private 1-1 tutors. Someone with time and money (the middle class kid may not have either---as they might be working a PT job, baby-sitting family members, etc) can figure out their pattern of mistakes with one baseline test and 2-4 hours with a private tutor. My own kid did that, went from 1330 to 1490 with just that. All future tutoring still landed my kid at/around 1490/1500.
Had my kid tried to "figure out the tricks/pattern of mistakes" tehmselves, it would have taken much longer. Instead my kid invested 4 hours for testing and 4 hours for tutoring and they were at their ultimate score 160 points higher.
But we stopped there, many rich take it further and spend another 20-40 hours to tutoring to get that 1550. Which we likely could have gotten, with focus on verbal. We chose not to do it and focus on more important things---like enjoying life and writing the essays. But we could have spend another $3-4K and lots of time and gotten a much better score. THat's what the rich do.

So recognize the privilege of not being middle class and how much easier it is to achieve a better score.

One on one tutoring is efficient. However, most students can't tutor their way to a 1550, no. If it were that straightforward, all rich kids would have such a score. They don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good. There may not be much difference between at 1500 and a 1600, but a 1200 does speak to the ability of a kid with a great GPA to succeed in a competitive college environment

There is no reason a college environment should be competitive.

Did you read the article? It's saying the opposite. Dartmouth wants to find people with SAT scores below 1400, and they were frustrated that their target audience wasn't taking the SAT.

oh yea, so 2.5 GPA should be fine

1350 SAT is 90TH percentile. So in reality, not that far from a 1500. The differences are small.
Especially if that 1350 is from a kid in a disadvantaged area, in a HS where only 25% of kids even go to college and the kid only had 3-4 AP courses offered (or none at all). This kid likely took the SAT once, and with minimal prep. So that shows the kid has what it takes to succeed at Dartmouth, if they also have a high gpa.
That is what they are searching for.

BTW, 2.5 GPA is less than 50th percentile, so no, it "won't be fine". But you knew that

That's not how percentiles work!

The intellectual chasm between the 90th and 99.9th + percentile can be, and often is, massive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Stanford announced they will extend TO policy for the 2024-2025 admissions cycle (current HS juniors)

u

Of course- it allows schools to keep their reported test averages high…when only the very highest scoring submit scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From The NY Times:

‘Convinced by the data’
Dartmouth College announced this morning that it would again require applicants to submit standardized test scores, starting next year. It’s a significant development because other selective colleges are now deciding whether to do so. In today’s newsletter, I’ll tell you the story behind Dartmouth’s decision.

Training future leaders
Last summer, Sian Beilock — a cognitive scientist who had previously run Barnard College in New York — became the president of Dartmouth. After arriving, she asked a few Dartmouth professors to do an internal study on standardized tests. Like many other colleges during the Covid pandemic, Dartmouth dropped its requirement that applicants submit an SAT or ACT score. With the pandemic over and students again able to take the tests, Dartmouth’s admissions team was thinking about reinstating the requirement. Beilock wanted to know what the evidence showed.

“Our business is looking at data and research and understanding the implications it has,” she told me.

Three Dartmouth economists and a sociologist then dug into the numbers. One of their main findings did not surprise them: Test scores were a better predictor than high school grades — or student essays and teacher recommendations — of how well students would fare at Dartmouth. The evidence of this relationship is large and growing, as I explained in a recent Times article.

A second finding was more surprising. During the pandemic, Dartmouth switched to a test-optional policy, in which applicants could choose whether to submit their SAT and ACT scores. And this policy was harming lower-income applicants in a specific way.

The researchers were able to analyze the test scores even of students who had not submitted them to Dartmouth. (Colleges can see the scores after the admissions process is finished.) Many lower-income students, it turned out, had made a strategic mistake.

The exterior of a brick building with a large clock tower. Snow covers the ground in front of the building.
Dartmouth College in Hanover, N.H. Caleb Kenna for The New York Times
They withheld test scores that would have helped them get into Dartmouth. They wrongly believed that their scores were too low, when in truth the admissions office would have judged the scores to be a sign that students had overcome a difficult environment and could thrive at Dartmouth.

As the four professors — Elizabeth Cascio, Bruce Sacerdote, Doug Staiger and Michele Tine — wrote in a memo, referring to the SAT’s 1,600-point scale, “There are hundreds of less-advantaged applicants with scores in the 1,400 range who should be submitting scores to identify themselves to admissions, but do not under test-optional policies.” Some of these applicants were rejected because the admissions office could not be confident about their academic qualifications. The students would have probably been accepted had they submitted their test scores, Lee Coffin, Dartmouth’s dean of admissions, told me.

That finding, as much as any other, led to Dartmouth’s announcement this morning. “Our goal at Dartmouth is academic excellence in the service of training the broadest swath of future leaders,” Beilock told me. “I’m convinced by the data that this will help us do that.”

It’s worth acknowledging a crucial part of this story. Dartmouth admits disadvantaged students who have scores that are lower on average than those of privileged students. The college doesn’t apologize for that. Students from poor neighborhoods or troubled high schools have effectively been running with wind in their face. They are not competing fairly with affluent teenagers.

A chart shows the share of students admitted to Dartmouth by SAT test scores and student advantage. Disadvantaged students with lower test scores are more likely to be admitted to Dartmouth than advantaged students with similar scores.
Source: Cascio, Sacerdote, Staiger, Tine (Dartmouth) | Disadvantaged students are low-income, first-generation college or enrolled at a challenged high school. | By The New York Times
“We’re looking for the kids who are excelling in their environment. We know society is unequal,” Beilock said. “Kids that are excelling in their environment, we think, are a good bet to excel at Dartmouth and out in the world.” The admissions office will judge an applicant’s environment partly by comparing his or her test score with the score distribution at the applicant’s high schools, Coffin said. In some cases, even an SAT score well below 1,400 can help an application.

Questions and answers
In our conversations, I asked Beilock and her colleagues about several common criticisms of standardized tests, and they said that they did not find the criticisms persuasive.

For instance, many critics on the political left argue the tests are racially or economically biased, but Beilock said the evidence didn’t support those claims. “The research suggests this tool is helpful in finding students we might otherwise miss,” she said.

I also asked whether she was worried that conservative critics of affirmative action might use test scores to accuse Dartmouth of violating the recent Supreme Court ruling barring race-conscious admissions. She was not. Dartmouth can legally admit a diverse class while using test scores as one part of its holistic admissions process, she said. I’ve heard similar sentiments from leaders at other colleges that have reinstated the test requirement, including Georgetown and M.I.T.

And I asked Beilock and her colleagues whether fewer students might now apply to Dartmouth. Coffin, the admissions dean, replied that such an outcome might be OK. He noted that the test-optional policy since 2020 had not led to a more diverse pool of applicants and that Dartmouth already received more than enough applications — 31,000 this year, for 1,200 first-year slots. “I don’t think volume is the holy grail,” he said.

Finally, I asked Beilock whether she was satisfied with Dartmouth’s level of economic diversity, which is slightly below that of most similarly elite colleges. She said no. “We have aspirations to bring it up,” she said. Reinstating the test requirement, she believes, can help Dartmouth do so.

For more: Compare economic diversity at hundreds of colleges through our College Access Index.

Kudos to Dartmouth. This is good for academically driven kids coming from middle income families

No it itsn't. Those kids are a dime a dozen. Dartmouth looked over their rejects, realizes there are disadvantaged kids they would have taken if only they had seen their scores. They don't want a perfect score, just better than expected in context. Reintroducing scores will mean more middle income kids get pushed aside, but that's a good thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The NYT article was reported by David Leonhardt, who wrote about this issue a few months ago, The earlier article suggested that more schools would reverse their policies.

The Daily podcast by the NYT ran this story recently too. It was a fascinating exploration of what test scores mean. I wished that TO wasn't an option for this year (I have a senior...).

[Anonymous]

MIT’s acceptance rate went up when they started requiring tests again. Fewer kids applied. I could see Dartmouth having a 10% acceptance rate next year. Glad to see the administration doesn’t care about having the lowest admit rate, but a strong class. Going the Georgetown route.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MIT’s acceptance rate went up when they started requiring tests again. Fewer kids applied. I could see Dartmouth having a 10% acceptance rate next year. Glad to see the administration doesn’t care about having the lowest admit rate, but a strong class. Going the Georgetown route.

Respect to MIT, GU, Dartmouth, GT, FL, etc. those schools that doing the right thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MIT’s acceptance rate went up when they started requiring tests again. Fewer kids applied. I could see Dartmouth having a 10% acceptance rate next year. Glad to see the administration doesn’t care about having the lowest admit rate, but a strong class. Going the Georgetown route.

Maybe stupid USWNR could start basing it's rankings on merit and not games being played. Gtwon would be much higher ranked if they did.

The average test score should only matter when 100% of kids are submitting scores--like MIT, Gtown and soon Dartmouth. TO is a game with only a percentage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MIT’s acceptance rate went up when they started requiring tests again. Fewer kids applied. I could see Dartmouth having a 10% acceptance rate next year. Glad to see the administration doesn’t care about having the lowest admit rate, but a strong class. Going the Georgetown route.

Maybe stupid USWNR could start basing it's rankings on merit and not games being played. Gtwon would be much higher ranked if they did.

The average test score should only matter when 100% of kids are submitting scores--like MIT, Gtown and soon Dartmouth. TO is a game with only a percentage.

Huh? MIT is ranked 2nd...seems like they are doing just fine in the rankings.