EO just a "shock event" -- what is the real goal?

[Anonymous]

The piece is well-sourced, and each data point probably is true and verifiable, but the dots are strung together in a weird way that doesn't totally make sense. Given a set of facts, you can create multiple narratives that fit. That doesn't make any particular narrative true.

I don't buy the "shock to the system" thing because there is still no evidence that we are being distracted from something. And as someone who works in government, this just seems like actions taken by people who do not understand how government works. Being President is not like being CEO, where you just order something and it's done. These clowns are definitely evil but they also are ignorant of the bureaucracy, legal framework, political system, etc etc that they are dealing with.

The courts will keep them in check, even if some aspects of the EO remain, and congress will step in eventually too when they realize the political/institutional risk of enabling him is greater than the gain. And 2018 will be a bloodbath.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The piece is well-sourced, and each data point probably is true and verifiable, but the dots are strung together in a weird way that doesn't totally make sense. Given a set of facts, you can create multiple narratives that fit. That doesn't make any particular narrative true.

I don't buy the "shock to the system" thing because there is still no evidence that we are being distracted from something. And as someone who works in government, this just seems like actions taken by people who do not understand how government works. Being President is not like being CEO, where you just order something and it's done. These clowns are definitely evil but they also are ignorant of the bureaucracy, legal framework, political system, etc etc that they are dealing with.

The courts will keep them in check, even if some aspects of the EO remain, and congress will step in eventually too when they realize the political/institutional risk of enabling him is greater than the gain. And 2018 will be a bloodbath.

This is where I think you are wrong. They certainly DO understand how government works and they are purposefully testing it. The courts DID try to keep them in check and DHS defied the courts - you really do not see that as deliberate and with purpose?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The piece is well-sourced, and each data point probably is true and verifiable, but the dots are strung together in a weird way that doesn't totally make sense. Given a set of facts, you can create multiple narratives that fit. That doesn't make any particular narrative true.

I don't buy the "shock to the system" thing because there is still no evidence that we are being distracted from something. And as someone who works in government, this just seems like actions taken by people who do not understand how government works. Being President is not like being CEO, where you just order something and it's done. These clowns are definitely evil but they also are ignorant of the bureaucracy, legal framework, political system, etc etc that they are dealing with.

The courts will keep them in check, even if some aspects of the EO remain, and congress will step in eventually too when they realize the political/institutional risk of enabling him is greater than the gain. And 2018 will be a bloodbath.

This is where I think you are wrong. They certainly DO understand how government works and they are purposefully testing it. The courts DID try to keep them in check and DHS defied the courts - you really do not see that as deliberate and with purpose?

Exactly. You're trying to tell me they deleted the Judicial Branch from the White House website on January 20th as a kind of oops?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The piece is well-sourced, and each data point probably is true and verifiable, but the dots are strung together in a weird way that doesn't totally make sense. Given a set of facts, you can create multiple narratives that fit. That doesn't make any particular narrative true.

I don't buy the "shock to the system" thing because there is still no evidence that we are being distracted from something. And as someone who works in government, this just seems like actions taken by people who do not understand how government works. Being President is not like being CEO, where you just order something and it's done. These clowns are definitely evil but they also are ignorant of the bureaucracy, legal framework, political system, etc etc that they are dealing with.

The courts will keep them in check, even if some aspects of the EO remain, and congress will step in eventually too when they realize the political/institutional risk of enabling him is greater than the gain. And 2018 will be a bloodbath.

This is where I think you are wrong. They certainly DO understand how government works and they are purposefully testing it. The courts DID try to keep them in check and DHS defied the courts - you really do not see that as deliberate and with purpose?

Exactly. You're trying to tell me they deleted the Judicial Branch from the White House website on January 20th as a kind of oops?

Does the actual judicial branch disappear when the website gets taken down? The courts are slow, and if CBP keeps defying orders the ACLU should and probably will file to find them in contempt. Judges may send out the federal marshals, who knows. But the bottom line is the three branches of government have real power over each other, they just have to use it, and eventually they will. Trump can't make Congress and the courts go away.

If they understood how government works they would've had professionals draft the EO with OLC oversight and coordinated with the agencies responsible for implementation to avoid the mass confusion and chaos of the weekend. It would've been a shitty EO but legally tight, pissing people off but leaving them mostly with no options to fight back. There are parts of that EO that *will* hold up in court, after all. But by fucking it up overall both on substance and process they left themselves incredibly vulnerable to public outrage and legal challenges, and they created political space for Republicans to push back. Chaos only works for them if they are still in control, but they gave up that control by being sloppy and overreaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The piece is well-sourced, and each data point probably is true and verifiable, but the dots are strung together in a weird way that doesn't totally make sense. Given a set of facts, you can create multiple narratives that fit. That doesn't make any particular narrative true.

I don't buy the "shock to the system" thing because there is still no evidence that we are being distracted from something. And as someone who works in government, this just seems like actions taken by people who do not understand how government works. Being President is not like being CEO, where you just order something and it's done. These clowns are definitely evil but they also are ignorant of the bureaucracy, legal framework, political system, etc etc that they are dealing with.

The courts will keep them in check, even if some aspects of the EO remain, and congress will step in eventually too when they realize the political/institutional risk of enabling him is greater than the gain. And 2018 will be a bloodbath.

This is where I think you are wrong. They certainly DO understand how government works and they are purposefully testing it. The courts DID try to keep them in check and DHS defied the courts - you really do not see that as deliberate and with purpose?

Exactly. You're trying to tell me they deleted the Judicial Branch from the White House website on January 20th as a kind of oops?

Does the actual judicial branch disappear when the website gets taken down? The courts are slow, and if CBP keeps defying orders the ACLU should and probably will file to find them in contempt. Judges may send out the federal marshals, who knows. But the bottom line is the three branches of government have real power over each other, they just have to use it, and eventually they will. Trump can't make Congress and the courts go away.

If they understood how government works they would've had professionals draft the EO with OLC oversight and coordinated with the agencies responsible for implementation to avoid the mass confusion and chaos of the weekend. It would've been a shitty EO but legally tight, pissing people off but leaving them mostly with no options to fight back. There are parts of that EO that *will* hold up in court, after all. But by fucking it up overall both on substance and process they left themselves incredibly vulnerable to public outrage and legal challenges, and they created political space for Republicans to push back. Chaos only works for them if they are still in control, but they gave up that control by being sloppy and overreaching.

That's what it looks like to the left, who wants to see him as incompetent. But to the right it looks like power. He passed it quickly, he said F you to the judges, he fired the AG.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The piece is well-sourced, and each data point probably is true and verifiable, but the dots are strung together in a weird way that doesn't totally make sense. Given a set of facts, you can create multiple narratives that fit. That doesn't make any particular narrative true.

I don't buy the "shock to the system" thing because there is still no evidence that we are being distracted from something. And as someone who works in government, this just seems like actions taken by people who do not understand how government works. Being President is not like being CEO, where you just order something and it's done. These clowns are definitely evil but they also are ignorant of the bureaucracy, legal framework, political system, etc etc that they are dealing with.

The courts will keep them in check, even if some aspects of the EO remain, and congress will step in eventually too when they realize the political/institutional risk of enabling him is greater than the gain. And 2018 will be a bloodbath.

This is where I think you are wrong. They certainly DO understand how government works and they are purposefully testing it. The courts DID try to keep them in check and DHS defied the courts - you really do not see that as deliberate and with purpose?

Exactly. You're trying to tell me they deleted the Judicial Branch from the White House website on January 20th as a kind of oops?

Does the actual judicial branch disappear when the website gets taken down? The courts are slow, and if CBP keeps defying orders the ACLU should and probably will file to find them in contempt. Judges may send out the federal marshals, who knows. But the bottom line is the three branches of government have real power over each other, they just have to use it, and eventually they will. Trump can't make Congress and the courts go away.

If they understood how government works they would've had professionals draft the EO with OLC oversight and coordinated with the agencies responsible for implementation to avoid the mass confusion and chaos of the weekend. It would've been a shitty EO but legally tight, pissing people off but leaving them mostly with no options to fight back. There are parts of that EO that *will* hold up in court, after all. But by fucking it up overall both on substance and process they left themselves incredibly vulnerable to public outrage and legal challenges, and they created political space for Republicans to push back. Chaos only works for them if they are still in control, but they gave up that control by being sloppy and overreaching.

That's what it looks like to the left, who wants to see him as incompetent. But to the right it looks like power. He passed it quickly, he said F you to the judges, he fired the AG.

He's giving the people that elected him exactly what he said he would. Shumer crying on TV and a bunch of lefty lawyers screaming about the civil rights of refugees is not going to win the mid terms.

[Anonymous]

Ok, Trumpsters, keep telling yourselves all is well. The only people who enjoy this are the deplorable troll types, an overall minority that revels in the outrage of adults like a bunch of teenagers. You idiots win when the rest of the country tunes out, but all of a sudden they are paying attention and Republicans are feelings the heat. As is the administration, trying to play down what it's done.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/01/31/there-are-new-signs-republicans-are-going-wobbly-on-the-muslim-ban/?utm_term=.f78e024489d6

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/01/republicans-trump-muslim-ban

[Anonymous]

So Trump didn't know he put Bannon on the NSC?

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/05/us/politics/trump-white-house-aides-strategy.html?referer=

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So Trump didn't know he put Bannon on the NSC?

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/05/us/politics/trump-white-house-aides-strategy.html?referer=

Honestly, the most telling detail in this is the fact that Andrew Jackson is a personal hero of Trump's.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Trump didn't know he put Bannon on the NSC?

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/05/us/politics/trump-white-house-aides-strategy.html?referer=

Honestly, the most telling detail in this is the fact that Andrew Jackson is a personal hero of Trump's.

And these details:

"Visitors to the Oval Office say Mr. Trump is obsessed with the décor — it is both a totem of a victory that validates him as a serious person and an image-burnishing backdrop — so he has told his staff to schedule as many televised events in the room as possible.

Flanking his desk are portraits of Presidents Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson, a recently acquired personal hero often cited by Mr. Bannon. He will linger on the opulence of the newly hung golden drapes, once used by Franklin D. Roosevelt — for a man who sometimes has trouble concentrating on policy memos, Mr. Trump was delighted to page through a book that offered him 17 window covering option.

With most of his belongings in New York, the only family picture on the shelf behind Mr. Trump’s desk is a small black-and-white photograph of that boss, Frederick Christ Trump."


He couldn't even bothered to bring a picture of his wife and young son. What kind of man is that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
He couldn't even bothered to bring a picture of his wife and young son. What kind of man is that?

A severely damaged one. But that's not news.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Trump didn't know he put Bannon on the NSC?

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/05/us/politics/trump-white-house-aides-strategy.html?referer=

Honestly, the most telling detail in this is the fact that Andrew Jackson is a personal hero of Trump's.

And these details:

"Visitors to the Oval Office say Mr. Trump is obsessed with the décor — it is both a totem of a victory that validates him as a serious person and an image-burnishing backdrop — so he has told his staff to schedule as many televised events in the room as possible.

Flanking his desk are portraits of Presidents Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson, a recently acquired personal hero often cited by Mr. Bannon. He will linger on the opulence of the newly hung golden drapes, once used by Franklin D. Roosevelt — for a man who sometimes has trouble concentrating on policy memos, Mr. Trump was delighted to page through a book that offered him 17 window covering option.

With most of his belongings in New York, the only family picture on the shelf behind Mr. Trump’s desk is a small black-and-white photograph of that boss, Frederick Christ Trump."


He couldn't even bothered to bring a picture of his wife and young son. What kind of man is that?

What kind of man (or woman) fixates on what a man puts on his desk? Just. So. Weird.

[Anonymous]

For the POTUS, it is important symbolism and has been for almost 100 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So Trump didn't know he put Bannon on the NSC?

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/05/us/politics/trump-white-house-aides-strategy.html?referer=

Honestly, the most telling detail in this is the fact that Andrew Jackson is a personal hero of Trump's.

And these details:

"Visitors to the Oval Office say Mr. Trump is obsessed with the décor — it is both a totem of a victory that validates him as a serious person and an image-burnishing backdrop — so he has told his staff to schedule as many televised events in the room as possible.

Flanking his desk are portraits of Presidents Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson, a recently acquired personal hero often cited by Mr. Bannon. He will linger on the opulence of the newly hung golden drapes, once used by Franklin D. Roosevelt — for a man who sometimes has trouble concentrating on policy memos, Mr. Trump was delighted to page through a book that offered him 17 window covering option.

With most of his belongings in New York, the only family picture on the shelf behind Mr. Trump’s desk is a small black-and-white photograph of that boss, Frederick Christ Trump."


He couldn't even bothered to bring a picture of his wife and young son. What kind of man is that?

What kind of man (or woman) fixates on what a man puts on his desk? Just. So. Weird.

I know right? As long as he concentrates on MAGA he could have portraits of Big Bird for all I care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The piece is well-sourced, and each data point probably is true and verifiable, but the dots are strung together in a weird way that doesn't totally make sense. Given a set of facts, you can create multiple narratives that fit. That doesn't make any particular narrative true.

I don't buy the "shock to the system" thing because there is still no evidence that we are being distracted from something. And as someone who works in government, this just seems like actions taken by people who do not understand how government works. Being President is not like being CEO, where you just order something and it's done. These clowns are definitely evil but they also are ignorant of the bureaucracy, legal framework, political system, etc etc that they are dealing with.

The courts will keep them in check, even if some aspects of the EO remain, and congress will step in eventually too when they realize the political/institutional risk of enabling him is greater than the gain. And 2018 will be a bloodbath.

This is where I think you are wrong. They certainly DO understand how government works and they are purposefully testing it. The courts DID try to keep them in check and DHS defied the courts - you really do not see that as deliberate and with purpose?

Exactly. You're trying to tell me they deleted the Judicial Branch from the White House website on January 20th as a kind of oops?

Does the actual judicial branch disappear when the website gets taken down? The courts are slow, and if CBP keeps defying orders the ACLU should and probably will file to find them in contempt. Judges may send out the federal marshals, who knows. But the bottom line is the three branches of government have real power over each other, they just have to use it, and eventually they will. Trump can't make Congress and the courts go away.

If they understood how government works they would've had professionals draft the EO with OLC oversight and coordinated with the agencies responsible for implementation to avoid the mass confusion and chaos of the weekend. It would've been a shitty EO but legally tight, pissing people off but leaving them mostly with no options to fight back. There are parts of that EO that *will* hold up in court, after all. But by fucking it up overall both on substance and process they left themselves incredibly vulnerable to public outrage and legal challenges, and they created political space for Republicans to push back. Chaos only works for them if they are still in control, but they gave up that control by being sloppy and overreaching.

That's what it looks like to the left, who wants to see him as incompetent. But to the right it looks like power. He passed it quickly, he said F you to the judges, he fired the AG.

He's giving the people that elected him exactly what he said he would. Shumer crying on TV and a bunch of lefty lawyers screaming about the civil rights of refugees is not going to win the mid terms.

But if this is a "shock event", that's probably intentional, right? If I were testing things out I'd start with something that supporters would get behind so that critics can be brushed off as whiners. What happens if next time it's something even republicans are squeamish about?