Reasons why one would not accept TJ offer?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

Some posters are very committed to the false narrative about decline in standards. They prefer the rigged system where only wealthy students whose parents could afford to buy the test had a shot at admission.

96% had finished more than Algebra 1 before the class of 2025. That number is up to 30%+.

TJ has had to implement remedial math instruction since the class of 2025 began.

There is no false narrative. These are facts.

People spout this number as though it's supposed to mean something. What do you think it means, other than the fact that FCPS is now opening TJ's doors to more students who are merely "advanced" in math rather than "super-advanced"?

The issue is that it's closing its doors to many - if not most - students with geometry or higher in 8th grade (super advanced according to you)

TJ's doors have always been closed to a supermajority of those students.

Creating a situation where, say, Alg2 students were automatically granted admission to TJ (or given an enormous advantage) would re-create the horrific race to advance students beyond their realistic capabilities.

When you do this, students will come up with a way to compensate - and that's why we had an enormous cheating problem at TJ for over a decade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

Some posters are very committed to the false narrative about decline in standards. They prefer the rigged system where only wealthy students whose parents could afford to buy the test had a shot at admission.

96% had finished more than Algebra 1 before the class of 2025. That number is up to 30%+.

TJ has had to implement remedial math instruction since the class of 2025 began.

There is no false narrative. These are facts.

People spout this number as though it's supposed to mean something. What do you think it means, other than the fact that FCPS is now opening TJ's doors to more students who are merely "advanced" in math rather than "super-advanced"?

The issue is that it's closing its doors to many - if not most - students with geometry or higher in 8th grade (super advanced according to you)

TJ's doors have always been closed to a supermajority of those students.

Creating a situation where, say, Alg2 students were automatically granted admission to TJ (or given an enormous advantage) would re-create the horrific race to advance students beyond their realistic capabilities.

When you do this, students will come up with a way to compensate - and that's why we had an enormous cheating problem at TJ for over a decade.

The advanced students are usually kind to help out the Algebra 1 students. But how do the Algebra 1 students reconcile to themselves that they'll have to compete with those advanced peers two years ahead for college admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

Some posters are very committed to the false narrative about decline in standards. They prefer the rigged system where only wealthy students whose parents could afford to buy the test had a shot at admission.

96% had finished more than Algebra 1 before the class of 2025. That number is up to 30%+.

TJ has had to implement remedial math instruction since the class of 2025 began.

There is no false narrative. These are facts.

People spout this number as though it's supposed to mean something. What do you think it means, other than the fact that FCPS is now opening TJ's doors to more students who are merely "advanced" in math rather than "super-advanced"?

The issue is that it's closing its doors to many - if not most - students with geometry or higher in 8th grade (super advanced according to you)

TJ's doors have always been closed to a supermajority of those students.

Creating a situation where, say, Alg2 students were automatically granted admission to TJ (or given an enormous advantage) would re-create the horrific race to advance students beyond their realistic capabilities.

When you do this, students will come up with a way to compensate - and that's why we had an enormous cheating problem at TJ for over a decade.

The advanced students are usually kind to help out the Algebra 1 students. But how do the Algebra 1 students reconcile to themselves that they'll have to compete with those advanced peers two years ahead for college admissions?

It is very nice of you! Seems like you care about those Algebra 1 students very much! Such a wonderful person!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"A lot of these folks X" -> stereotyping a whole race based on experiences with a very small number -> racist.

If you got mugged by an African-American, would you go around talking about how black people are thugs?

DP. The person above is not stereotyping an entire race with that comment.

The fact that there are a large number of upper-middle class and "wealthy" Asians who are attempting to protect their prior privileged access to an exceptional academic opportunity says nothing about Asians more broadly.

The fact that by and large, they are not publicly joined by members of other races (except occasionally by people who are married to Asians acting in the self interest of their biracial children or Asian stepchildren) is what permits the person above to refer to the group as "Asian".

It is Asians who are making this argument publicly, but it is far from all Asians.

There is a school similar to TJ in NYC where they also tried to change the admissions criteria for similar reasons. The school was almost 80% asian and they talked about how asian families were buying their way into the school. Then it was pointed out that asians have a higher poverty rate than blacks or hispanics in NYC because they are all immigrants. Most of the asian students were on free/reduced lunch, a higher propiortion than the school in general which was about 40% free/reduced lunch. Money has nothing to do with it, it's all about race.

If money is what gets you into tj, there would have been more white kids. White people in northern virginia are wealthier than asians and yet the biggest absolute increase in population under the new admissions process was among white students.

It is clear that some parents want their kids to get great opportunities but don't necessarily want their kids to stress out and bust their ass to earn them.

Counter-point: the previous admissions process was incentivizing behavior that took "stressing out" and "busting your ass" to a deeply unhealthy level for many students, who would then get in to TJ and crash hard. It wouldn't appear that they were crashing hard because of the sheer volume of external support they were receiving, but the evidence came in the form of self-harming behavior.

The previous method was competitive and merit based. The current method looks pretty random.

Allocating social resources based on merit might create more stress but it also leads to more efficient allocation.
Academic stress happens everywhere, if those kids don't get into tj, their parents don't give up on their kids. The academic stress is still there.
It's not like tj has the highest suicide rate in the area.

Sure it does not. But is the idea behind admitting under-qualified 8th grade algebra 1 students and setting them up to face TJ rigor and inhumanely subject them to stress?

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

And for most of MLB history most pitchers threw below 90 mph. The world has gotten more competitive.
Algebra 1 kids have NOT been doping splendidly.
By all accounts the algebra 1 kids struggle more frequently than the general population.
We should be making efforts to increase the rate of algebra ready 6th graders in every neighborhood.

You cannot impose equity at 9th grade while ignoring it from 1st through 8th.
You have to have aap kids in every neighborhood.
I mean if we can impose geographic quotas for tj, why not for aap?
If they never get into aap, it is not reasonable to expect them to be ready for tj in 9th grade.

1) There are still pitchers in MLB who are very successful throwing in the neighborhood of 90mph for their fastball. But if you really want to take the analogy there, I'll play ball (haha).

Yes, the average fastball has spiked in velo over the last several years. And you know what else has happened? Tommy John and thoracic outlet surgeries have gone through the roof.

Because parents are sending their kids to enrichment opportunities at an earlier and earlier age to get their kids throwing harder while they chase scholarships and MLB draft positions. Dr. James Andrews (the earliest leading expert in ligament surgeries for sports) has acknowledged that the overwhelming majority of kids shouldn't be throwing harder than 80mph before they're 16 because the ligament that is stressed doesn't fully mature until age 26.

There is a direct analogy between this phenomenon and the fad of hyper-acceleration in math as parents chase TJ admissions and elite college outcomes for their kids. And you know what happens? They get burned out and resentful.

Are there a few kids who are outliers who should be throwing 90mph in high school? Sure! Are there a few kids who are outliers who should be studying pre-calc in 8th grade? Sure!

But it's the craven attempt to manufacture those outliers that is damaging to the kids.

2) Every single progressive will agree with you that we absolutely should be making more efforts to improve outcomes for students from disadvantaged backgrounds in grades K-8. Every. Single. One.

But it is a false choice to suggest that we can't both do that and improve access to TJ for those groups through the removal of barriers that are so easily manipulated by the test-prep industry.

And if you genuinely want to take this ground-up approach, you have to be diligent about voting for progressives in every single local election who want to raise taxes on those who can afford to support improved public education and who favor rebalancing local budgets to prioritize fully funding advanced educational services in low-income areas of Northern Virginia.

You cannot simultaneously advocate for a ground-up approach to increasing access to advanced academics and vote for conservatives who want to slash funding for one of the nation's best school systems. Not if you want to be taken seriously.

Well both of you are wrong. It's parents and family, not the curriculum, that is the cause of these issues. At least in regards to FCPS, there is already a process to identify and nurture advanced academics in every school, just about. People have been trying to solve this equity problem for decades but always fail to realize they are always treating symptoms.

And what, precisely, do you believe the "disease" is?

Some families can’t, won’t, or don’t know how to provide a nurturing environment with a focus on academics. The are many reasons for these circumstances, but none of them are related to equitable instruction or the school district not doing enough to close the gap.

Are you suggesting that students who come from these families are now being admitted to TJ in significant quantities?

And as a follow-up, what do you suggest that students do who aren't lucky enough to be born into families that do provide these environments?

Wouldn't it be more impressive to you to see a student succeed in the context of their environment without such supports, even if the level that they reached were slightly behind what a fully supported (and in many cases, micromanaged) student attained?

For many of these families, their inability to provide these supports comes not from a lack of focus on academics, but from a significant need to focus on other things (food, shelter, safety). If you truly want to solve these issues, you need to vote for people who will swim against the consistent stream of wealth being transferred upward in society.

1) My comment was about ground up approach to equity in education, K-8, that may lead to better TJ outcomes for URM, but even more for equity in schools as a whole. This is a not a school issue.

2) Don't have an answer. Can't get new families. As you said, it's bad luck.

3) I disagree with your assertion that they are just slightly behind and so it's not as expected. Tests tend to tell the story a little clearer.

4) While people have free will, choice, and freedom, you will not solve those issues and I don't support taxing people to keep trying to find out this simple truth.

I appreciate the reasonable response.

I disagree that we should simply throw our hands up and tell children who aren't born into a specific circumstance that they're just plain out of luck when it comes to advanced academic opportunities.

The reality is that they are slightly behind. It's a relatively small number of kids who are now being admitted who are just one year of math less advanced.

I do think that your assertion in 4) is worth digging into somewhat. Is it your contention that the delta in prioritization of academics between Asian families and, say, Black families is so high as to justify a world where more Asian students were admitted to TJ in the Class of 2024 than there had been Black students admitted in its 35-year history to that point?

I would imagine that you know as well as I do that poverty significantly limits free will, choice, and freedom. We live in a society that tells a burger flipper that if they want a living wage, they shouldn't be flipping burgers - which tacitly acknowledges that we need burger flippers but that those people should live in poverty.

Just shift the focus, from focusing on schools as the delivery for this change, to other already existing frameworks. Im not saying don't do anything, just stop trying to do it through structural school changes like curriculum, standards, and admissions. It's illogical and damaging.

There have been test results that you can see beyond how many kids with algebra have been admitted. The drop in PSATs and SOLs are real. Again, tests matter.

I don't care if the school was 100% of any particular race if it was based on merit. diversity in race is meaningless. diversity in thought, experience, capabilities matters most. I reject your question.

burger flippers don't flip burgers forever. people move between lower and lower middle and middle class income brackets all the time. It's truly difficult to make it to upper class, but this idea that we are going to expect burger flippers to support themselves and a family as a burger flipper is idiotic. class mobility is real. And an honest question on this would at least recognize this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

1) There are still pitchers in MLB who are very successful throwing in the neighborhood of 90mph for their fastball. But if you really want to take the analogy there, I'll play ball (haha).

Yes, the average fastball has spiked in velo over the last several years. And you know what else has happened? Tommy John and thoracic outlet surgeries have gone through the roof.

Because parents are sending their kids to enrichment opportunities at an earlier and earlier age to get their kids throwing harder while they chase scholarships and MLB draft positions. Dr. James Andrews (the earliest leading expert in ligament surgeries for sports) has acknowledged that the overwhelming majority of kids shouldn't be throwing harder than 80mph before they're 16 because the ligament that is stressed doesn't fully mature until age 26.

There is a direct analogy between this phenomenon and the fad of hyper-acceleration in math as parents chase TJ admissions and elite college outcomes for their kids. And you know what happens? They get burned out and resentful.

Cool. So there's actual evidence coming from an expert in the field that it's inappropriate for kids to throw at greater than 90 mph. Do you have similar evidence that it's inappropriate or harmful for kids to take Algebra before 7th grade? Your argument seems to be based on your feelings that kids' brains aren't ready. Your feelings are worthless without supporting evidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

Some posters are very committed to the false narrative about decline in standards. They prefer the rigged system where only wealthy students whose parents could afford to buy the test had a shot at admission.

96% had finished more than Algebra 1 before the class of 2025. That number is up to 30%+.

TJ has had to implement remedial math instruction since the class of 2025 began.

There is no false narrative. These are facts.

People spout this number as though it's supposed to mean something. What do you think it means, other than the fact that FCPS is now opening TJ's doors to more students who are merely "advanced" in math rather than "super-advanced"?

Both sides are true. FCPS opened the doors to lower income kids who are talented, but have lacked opportunities. They've also opened the door to completely mediocre kids in the middle to high SES schools. It's great that Algebra I kids at high FARMS schools are being given a chance. It's ludicrous that Algebra I kids at Longfellow, Rocky Run, Carson, etc. are getting in. Those are privileged kids who despite the enrichment and tutoring couldn't meet the bar for Algebra in 7th grade. For many FCPS AAP centers, there are 100+ kids applying who all look roughly the same on paper when using the pretty sparse TJ application process. It would make more sense to penalize kids from those schools who are only in Algebra I than it is to split hairs between kids' portrait of a graduate essays when deciding on admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"A lot of these folks X" -> stereotyping a whole race based on experiences with a very small number -> racist.

If you got mugged by an African-American, would you go around talking about how black people are thugs?

DP. The person above is not stereotyping an entire race with that comment.

The fact that there are a large number of upper-middle class and "wealthy" Asians who are attempting to protect their prior privileged access to an exceptional academic opportunity says nothing about Asians more broadly.

The fact that by and large, they are not publicly joined by members of other races (except occasionally by people who are married to Asians acting in the self interest of their biracial children or Asian stepchildren) is what permits the person above to refer to the group as "Asian".

It is Asians who are making this argument publicly, but it is far from all Asians.

There is a school similar to TJ in NYC where they also tried to change the admissions criteria for similar reasons. The school was almost 80% asian and they talked about how asian families were buying their way into the school. Then it was pointed out that asians have a higher poverty rate than blacks or hispanics in NYC because they are all immigrants. Most of the asian students were on free/reduced lunch, a higher propiortion than the school in general which was about 40% free/reduced lunch. Money has nothing to do with it, it's all about race.

If money is what gets you into tj, there would have been more white kids. White people in northern virginia are wealthier than asians and yet the biggest absolute increase in population under the new admissions process was among white students.

It is clear that some parents want their kids to get great opportunities but don't necessarily want their kids to stress out and bust their ass to earn them.

Counter-point: the previous admissions process was incentivizing behavior that took "stressing out" and "busting your ass" to a deeply unhealthy level for many students, who would then get in to TJ and crash hard. It wouldn't appear that they were crashing hard because of the sheer volume of external support they were receiving, but the evidence came in the form of self-harming behavior.

The previous method was competitive and merit based. The current method looks pretty random.

Allocating social resources based on merit might create more stress but it also leads to more efficient allocation.
Academic stress happens everywhere, if those kids don't get into tj, their parents don't give up on their kids. The academic stress is still there.
It's not like tj has the highest suicide rate in the area.

Sure it does not. But is the idea behind admitting under-qualified 8th grade algebra 1 students and setting them up to face TJ rigor and inhumanely subject them to stress?

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

And for most of MLB history most pitchers threw below 90 mph. The world has gotten more competitive.
Algebra 1 kids have NOT been doping splendidly.
By all accounts the algebra 1 kids struggle more frequently than the general population.
We should be making efforts to increase the rate of algebra ready 6th graders in every neighborhood.

You cannot impose equity at 9th grade while ignoring it from 1st through 8th.
You have to have aap kids in every neighborhood.
I mean if we can impose geographic quotas for tj, why not for aap?
If they never get into aap, it is not reasonable to expect them to be ready for tj in 9th grade.

1) There are still pitchers in MLB who are very successful throwing in the neighborhood of 90mph for their fastball. But if you really want to take the analogy there, I'll play ball (haha).

Yes, the average fastball has spiked in velo over the last several years. And you know what else has happened? Tommy John and thoracic outlet surgeries have gone through the roof.

Because parents are sending their kids to enrichment opportunities at an earlier and earlier age to get their kids throwing harder while they chase scholarships and MLB draft positions. Dr. James Andrews (the earliest leading expert in ligament surgeries for sports) has acknowledged that the overwhelming majority of kids shouldn't be throwing harder than 80mph before they're 16 because the ligament that is stressed doesn't fully mature until age 26.

There is a direct analogy between this phenomenon and the fad of hyper-acceleration in math as parents chase TJ admissions and elite college outcomes for their kids. And you know what happens? They get burned out and resentful.

Are there a few kids who are outliers who should be throwing 90mph in high school? Sure! Are there a few kids who are outliers who should be studying pre-calc in 8th grade? Sure!

But it's the craven attempt to manufacture those outliers that is damaging to the kids.

2) Every single progressive will agree with you that we absolutely should be making more efforts to improve outcomes for students from disadvantaged backgrounds in grades K-8. Every. Single. One.

But it is a false choice to suggest that we can't both do that and improve access to TJ for those groups through the removal of barriers that are so easily manipulated by the test-prep industry.

And if you genuinely want to take this ground-up approach, you have to be diligent about voting for progressives in every single local election who want to raise taxes on those who can afford to support improved public education and who favor rebalancing local budgets to prioritize fully funding advanced educational services in low-income areas of Northern Virginia.

You cannot simultaneously advocate for a ground-up approach to increasing access to advanced academics and vote for conservatives who want to slash funding for one of the nation's best school systems. Not if you want to be taken seriously.

Well both of you are wrong. It's parents and family, not the curriculum, that is the cause of these issues. At least in regards to FCPS, there is already a process to identify and nurture advanced academics in every school, just about. People have been trying to solve this equity problem for decades but always fail to realize they are always treating symptoms.

And what, precisely, do you believe the "disease" is?

Some families can’t, won’t, or don’t know how to provide a nurturing environment with a focus on academics. The are many reasons for these circumstances, but none of them are related to equitable instruction or the school district not doing enough to close the gap.

Are you suggesting that students who come from these families are now being admitted to TJ in significant quantities?

And as a follow-up, what do you suggest that students do who aren't lucky enough to be born into families that do provide these environments?

Wouldn't it be more impressive to you to see a student succeed in the context of their environment without such supports, even if the level that they reached were slightly behind what a fully supported (and in many cases, micromanaged) student attained?

For many of these families, their inability to provide these supports comes not from a lack of focus on academics, but from a significant need to focus on other things (food, shelter, safety). If you truly want to solve these issues, you need to vote for people who will swim against the consistent stream of wealth being transferred upward in society.

1) My comment was about ground up approach to equity in education, K-8, that may lead to better TJ outcomes for URM, but even more for equity in schools as a whole. This is a not a school issue.

2) Don't have an answer. Can't get new families. As you said, it's bad luck.

3) I disagree with your assertion that they are just slightly behind and so it's not as expected. Tests tend to tell the story a little clearer.

4) While people have free will, choice, and freedom, you will not solve those issues and I don't support taxing people to keep trying to find out this simple truth.

I appreciate the reasonable response.

I disagree that we should simply throw our hands up and tell children who aren't born into a specific circumstance that they're just plain out of luck when it comes to advanced academic opportunities.

The reality is that they are slightly behind. It's a relatively small number of kids who are now being admitted who are just one year of math less advanced.

I do think that your assertion in 4) is worth digging into somewhat. Is it your contention that the delta in prioritization of academics between Asian families and, say, Black families is so high as to justify a world where more Asian students were admitted to TJ in the Class of 2024 than there had been Black students admitted in its 35-year history to that point?

I would imagine that you know as well as I do that poverty significantly limits free will, choice, and freedom. We live in a society that tells a burger flipper that if they want a living wage, they shouldn't be flipping burgers - which tacitly acknowledges that we need burger flippers but that those people should live in poverty.

Just shift the focus, from focusing on schools as the delivery for this change, to other already existing frameworks. Im not saying don't do anything, just stop trying to do it through structural school changes like curriculum, standards, and admissions. It's illogical and damaging.

There have been test results that you can see beyond how many kids with algebra have been admitted. The drop in PSATs and SOLs are real. Again, tests matter.

I don't care if the school was 100% of any particular race if it was based on merit. diversity in race is meaningless. diversity in thought, experience, capabilities matters most. I reject your question.

burger flippers don't flip burgers forever. people move between lower and lower middle and middle class income brackets all the time. It's truly difficult to make it to upper class, but this idea that we are going to expect burger flippers to support themselves and a family as a burger flipper is idiotic. class mobility is real. And an honest question on this would at least recognize this.

This is incorrect. There has been a drop in PSATs and SOLs across the board in Virginia due to the pandemic. TJ is not an exception, however much we might have hoped that it would be. But there's no way to draw a conclusion from the data that we have, that the students admitted under the new admissions process are "lower quality" than previous. Maybe in the next few years we will have that data. But right now, learning loss from the pandemic is obscuring it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

Some posters are very committed to the false narrative about decline in standards. They prefer the rigged system where only wealthy students whose parents could afford to buy the test had a shot at admission.

96% had finished more than Algebra 1 before the class of 2025. That number is up to 30%+.

TJ has had to implement remedial math instruction since the class of 2025 began.

There is no false narrative. These are facts.

People spout this number as though it's supposed to mean something. What do you think it means, other than the fact that FCPS is now opening TJ's doors to more students who are merely "advanced" in math rather than "super-advanced"?

The issue is that it's closing its doors to many - if not most - students with geometry or higher in 8th grade (super advanced according to you)

TJ's doors have always been closed to a supermajority of those students.

Creating a situation where, say, Alg2 students were automatically granted admission to TJ (or given an enormous advantage) would re-create the horrific race to advance students beyond their realistic capabilities.

When you do this, students will come up with a way to compensate - and that's why we had an enormous cheating problem at TJ for over a decade.

The advanced students are usually kind to help out the Algebra 1 students. But how do the Algebra 1 students reconcile to themselves that they'll have to compete with those advanced peers two years ahead for college admissions?

It's unfair to the Algebra1 kids to be thrown into the deep end with advanced learners and expecting them to level up to their peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

Some posters are very committed to the false narrative about decline in standards. They prefer the rigged system where only wealthy students whose parents could afford to buy the test had a shot at admission.

96% had finished more than Algebra 1 before the class of 2025. That number is up to 30%+.

TJ has had to implement remedial math instruction since the class of 2025 began.

There is no false narrative. These are facts.

People spout this number as though it's supposed to mean something. What do you think it means, other than the fact that FCPS is now opening TJ's doors to more students who are merely "advanced" in math rather than "super-advanced"?

The issue is that it's closing its doors to many - if not most - students with geometry or higher in 8th grade (super advanced according to you)

TJ's doors have always been closed to a supermajority of those students.

Creating a situation where, say, Alg2 students were automatically granted admission to TJ (or given an enormous advantage) would re-create the horrific race to advance students beyond their realistic capabilities.

When you do this, students will come up with a way to compensate - and that's why we had an enormous cheating problem at TJ for over a decade.

The advanced students are usually kind to help out the Algebra 1 students. But how do the Algebra 1 students reconcile to themselves that they'll have to compete with those advanced peers two years ahead for college admissions?

It's unfair to the Algebra1 kids to be thrown into the deep end with advanced learners and expecting them to level up to their peers.

I don't think that's correct either. Many kids take Algebra I in 8th grade all over the world and are still advanced learners. I just think they should have something else that really shows TJ is a good place for them.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:"A lot of these folks X" -> stereotyping a whole race based on experiences with a very small number -> racist.

If you got mugged by an African-American, would you go around talking about how black people are thugs?

DP. The person above is not stereotyping an entire race with that comment.

The fact that there are a large number of upper-middle class and "wealthy" Asians who are attempting to protect their prior privileged access to an exceptional academic opportunity says nothing about Asians more broadly.

The fact that by and large, they are not publicly joined by members of other races (except occasionally by people who are married to Asians acting in the self interest of their biracial children or Asian stepchildren) is what permits the person above to refer to the group as "Asian".

It is Asians who are making this argument publicly, but it is far from all Asians.

There is a school similar to TJ in NYC where they also tried to change the admissions criteria for similar reasons. The school was almost 80% asian and they talked about how asian families were buying their way into the school. Then it was pointed out that asians have a higher poverty rate than blacks or hispanics in NYC because they are all immigrants. Most of the asian students were on free/reduced lunch, a higher propiortion than the school in general which was about 40% free/reduced lunch. Money has nothing to do with it, it's all about race.

If money is what gets you into tj, there would have been more white kids. White people in northern virginia are wealthier than asians and yet the biggest absolute increase in population under the new admissions process was among white students.

It is clear that some parents want their kids to get great opportunities but don't necessarily want their kids to stress out and bust their ass to earn them.

Counter-point: the previous admissions process was incentivizing behavior that took "stressing out" and "busting your ass" to a deeply unhealthy level for many students, who would then get in to TJ and crash hard. It wouldn't appear that they were crashing hard because of the sheer volume of external support they were receiving, but the evidence came in the form of self-harming behavior.

The previous method was competitive and merit based. The current method looks pretty random.

Allocating social resources based on merit might create more stress but it also leads to more efficient allocation.
Academic stress happens everywhere, if those kids don't get into tj, their parents don't give up on their kids. The academic stress is still there.
It's not like tj has the highest suicide rate in the area.

Sure it does not. But is the idea behind admitting under-qualified 8th grade algebra 1 students and setting them up to face TJ rigor and inhumanely subject them to stress?

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

And for most of MLB history most pitchers threw below 90 mph. The world has gotten more competitive.
Algebra 1 kids have NOT been doping splendidly.
By all accounts the algebra 1 kids struggle more frequently than the general population.
We should be making efforts to increase the rate of algebra ready 6th graders in every neighborhood.

You cannot impose equity at 9th grade while ignoring it from 1st through 8th.
You have to have aap kids in every neighborhood.
I mean if we can impose geographic quotas for tj, why not for aap?
If they never get into aap, it is not reasonable to expect them to be ready for tj in 9th grade.

1) There are still pitchers in MLB who are very successful throwing in the neighborhood of 90mph for their fastball. But if you really want to take the analogy there, I'll play ball (haha).

Yes, the average fastball has spiked in velo over the last several years. And you know what else has happened? Tommy John and thoracic outlet surgeries have gone through the roof.

Because parents are sending their kids to enrichment opportunities at an earlier and earlier age to get their kids throwing harder while they chase scholarships and MLB draft positions. Dr. James Andrews (the earliest leading expert in ligament surgeries for sports) has acknowledged that the overwhelming majority of kids shouldn't be throwing harder than 80mph before they're 16 because the ligament that is stressed doesn't fully mature until age 26.

There is a direct analogy between this phenomenon and the fad of hyper-acceleration in math as parents chase TJ admissions and elite college outcomes for their kids. And you know what happens? They get burned out and resentful.

Are there a few kids who are outliers who should be throwing 90mph in high school? Sure! Are there a few kids who are outliers who should be studying pre-calc in 8th grade? Sure!

But it's the craven attempt to manufacture those outliers that is damaging to the kids.

2) Every single progressive will agree with you that we absolutely should be making more efforts to improve outcomes for students from disadvantaged backgrounds in grades K-8. Every. Single. One.

But it is a false choice to suggest that we can't both do that and improve access to TJ for those groups through the removal of barriers that are so easily manipulated by the test-prep industry.

And if you genuinely want to take this ground-up approach, you have to be diligent about voting for progressives in every single local election who want to raise taxes on those who can afford to support improved public education and who favor rebalancing local budgets to prioritize fully funding advanced educational services in low-income areas of Northern Virginia.

You cannot simultaneously advocate for a ground-up approach to increasing access to advanced academics and vote for conservatives who want to slash funding for one of the nation's best school systems. Not if you want to be taken seriously.

Well both of you are wrong. It's parents and family, not the curriculum, that is the cause of these issues. At least in regards to FCPS, there is already a process to identify and nurture advanced academics in every school, just about. People have been trying to solve this equity problem for decades but always fail to realize they are always treating symptoms.

And what, precisely, do you believe the "disease" is?

Some families can’t, won’t, or don’t know how to provide a nurturing environment with a focus on academics. The are many reasons for these circumstances, but none of them are related to equitable instruction or the school district not doing enough to close the gap.

Are you suggesting that students who come from these families are now being admitted to TJ in significant quantities?

And as a follow-up, what do you suggest that students do who aren't lucky enough to be born into families that do provide these environments?

Wouldn't it be more impressive to you to see a student succeed in the context of their environment without such supports, even if the level that they reached were slightly behind what a fully supported (and in many cases, micromanaged) student attained?

For many of these families, their inability to provide these supports comes not from a lack of focus on academics, but from a significant need to focus on other things (food, shelter, safety). If you truly want to solve these issues, you need to vote for people who will swim against the consistent stream of wealth being transferred upward in society.

1) My comment was about ground up approach to equity in education, K-8, that may lead to better TJ outcomes for URM, but even more for equity in schools as a whole. This is a not a school issue.

2) Don't have an answer. Can't get new families. As you said, it's bad luck.

3) I disagree with your assertion that they are just slightly behind and so it's not as expected. Tests tend to tell the story a little clearer.

4) While people have free will, choice, and freedom, you will not solve those issues and I don't support taxing people to keep trying to find out this simple truth.

I appreciate the reasonable response.

I disagree that we should simply throw our hands up and tell children who aren't born into a specific circumstance that they're just plain out of luck when it comes to advanced academic opportunities.

The reality is that they are slightly behind. It's a relatively small number of kids who are now being admitted who are just one year of math less advanced.

I do think that your assertion in 4) is worth digging into somewhat. Is it your contention that the delta in prioritization of academics between Asian families and, say, Black families is so high as to justify a world where more Asian students were admitted to TJ in the Class of 2024 than there had been Black students admitted in its 35-year history to that point?

I would imagine that you know as well as I do that poverty significantly limits free will, choice, and freedom. We live in a society that tells a burger flipper that if they want a living wage, they shouldn't be flipping burgers - which tacitly acknowledges that we need burger flippers but that those people should live in poverty.

Just shift the focus, from focusing on schools as the delivery for this change, to other already existing frameworks. Im not saying don't do anything, just stop trying to do it through structural school changes like curriculum, standards, and admissions. It's illogical and damaging.

There have been test results that you can see beyond how many kids with algebra have been admitted. The drop in PSATs and SOLs are real. Again, tests matter.

I don't care if the school was 100% of any particular race if it was based on merit. diversity in race is meaningless. diversity in thought, experience, capabilities matters most. I reject your question.

burger flippers don't flip burgers forever. people move between lower and lower middle and middle class income brackets all the time. It's truly difficult to make it to upper class, but this idea that we are going to expect burger flippers to support themselves and a family as a burger flipper is idiotic. class mobility is real. And an honest question on this would at least recognize this.

1) To what pre-existing frameworks are you referring? Be specific...

2) It is something of a tautology that when you remove standardized exam performance as a gatekeeper for admissions, that standardized exam performance in the resulting class will drop. That information - to the extent it exists or is attributable directly to the admissions question - isn't particularly relevant.

3) I think to some extent you're correct, but I also think it's really difficult to decouple race from experience in this country. Hopefully some day that won't be the case, but any observer operating in good faith would have to acknowledge that fundamental truth.

4) We're no longer living in a world where burger-flipping, especially in urban and suburban areas, is a job for 16-year-olds over the summer. It is a full-time job that people do for a living and deserves respect. While I grant you that raising a family on a single burger-flipping income probably isn't realistic, we also shouldn't exist in a world where a family on two burger-flipping incomes can't raise enough children to replace themselves. The bottom line is that someone has to do that job, and many other minimum-wage jobs that are considered "unskilled", in order for society to continue to function in the way that it does today. Consigning those people to poverty while insisting that their jobs continue to exist is cruel.

[Anonymous]

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There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

Some posters are very committed to the false narrative about decline in standards. They prefer the rigged system where only wealthy students whose parents could afford to buy the test had a shot at admission.

96% had finished more than Algebra 1 before the class of 2025. That number is up to 30%+.

TJ has had to implement remedial math instruction since the class of 2025 began.

There is no false narrative. These are facts.

People spout this number as though it's supposed to mean something. What do you think it means, other than the fact that FCPS is now opening TJ's doors to more students who are merely "advanced" in math rather than "super-advanced"?

The issue is that it's closing its doors to many - if not most - students with geometry or higher in 8th grade (super advanced according to you)

TJ's doors have always been closed to a supermajority of those students.

Creating a situation where, say, Alg2 students were automatically granted admission to TJ (or given an enormous advantage) would re-create the horrific race to advance students beyond their realistic capabilities.

When you do this, students will come up with a way to compensate - and that's why we had an enormous cheating problem at TJ for over a decade.

The advanced students are usually kind to help out the Algebra 1 students. But how do the Algebra 1 students reconcile to themselves that they'll have to compete with those advanced peers two years ahead for college admissions?

It's unfair to the Algebra1 kids to be thrown into the deep end with advanced learners and expecting them to level up to their peers.

Math is only one subject. And they're not being thrown into math classes with kids that have taken Geometry already. That statement has no (or negative) value.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:"A lot of these folks X" -> stereotyping a whole race based on experiences with a very small number -> racist.

If you got mugged by an African-American, would you go around talking about how black people are thugs?

DP. The person above is not stereotyping an entire race with that comment.

The fact that there are a large number of upper-middle class and "wealthy" Asians who are attempting to protect their prior privileged access to an exceptional academic opportunity says nothing about Asians more broadly.

The fact that by and large, they are not publicly joined by members of other races (except occasionally by people who are married to Asians acting in the self interest of their biracial children or Asian stepchildren) is what permits the person above to refer to the group as "Asian".

It is Asians who are making this argument publicly, but it is far from all Asians.

There is a school similar to TJ in NYC where they also tried to change the admissions criteria for similar reasons. The school was almost 80% asian and they talked about how asian families were buying their way into the school. Then it was pointed out that asians have a higher poverty rate than blacks or hispanics in NYC because they are all immigrants. Most of the asian students were on free/reduced lunch, a higher propiortion than the school in general which was about 40% free/reduced lunch. Money has nothing to do with it, it's all about race.

If money is what gets you into tj, there would have been more white kids. White people in northern virginia are wealthier than asians and yet the biggest absolute increase in population under the new admissions process was among white students.

It is clear that some parents want their kids to get great opportunities but don't necessarily want their kids to stress out and bust their ass to earn them.

Counter-point: the previous admissions process was incentivizing behavior that took "stressing out" and "busting your ass" to a deeply unhealthy level for many students, who would then get in to TJ and crash hard. It wouldn't appear that they were crashing hard because of the sheer volume of external support they were receiving, but the evidence came in the form of self-harming behavior.

The previous method was competitive and merit based. The current method looks pretty random.

Allocating social resources based on merit might create more stress but it also leads to more efficient allocation.
Academic stress happens everywhere, if those kids don't get into tj, their parents don't give up on their kids. The academic stress is still there.
It's not like tj has the highest suicide rate in the area.

Sure it does not. But is the idea behind admitting under-qualified 8th grade algebra 1 students and setting them up to face TJ rigor and inhumanely subject them to stress?

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

And for most of MLB history most pitchers threw below 90 mph. The world has gotten more competitive.
Algebra 1 kids have NOT been doping splendidly.
By all accounts the algebra 1 kids struggle more frequently than the general population.
We should be making efforts to increase the rate of algebra ready 6th graders in every neighborhood.

You cannot impose equity at 9th grade while ignoring it from 1st through 8th.
You have to have aap kids in every neighborhood.
I mean if we can impose geographic quotas for tj, why not for aap?
If they never get into aap, it is not reasonable to expect them to be ready for tj in 9th grade.

1) There are still pitchers in MLB who are very successful throwing in the neighborhood of 90mph for their fastball. But if you really want to take the analogy there, I'll play ball (haha).

Yes, the average fastball has spiked in velo over the last several years. And you know what else has happened? Tommy John and thoracic outlet surgeries have gone through the roof.

Because parents are sending their kids to enrichment opportunities at an earlier and earlier age to get their kids throwing harder while they chase scholarships and MLB draft positions. Dr. James Andrews (the earliest leading expert in ligament surgeries for sports) has acknowledged that the overwhelming majority of kids shouldn't be throwing harder than 80mph before they're 16 because the ligament that is stressed doesn't fully mature until age 26.

There is a direct analogy between this phenomenon and the fad of hyper-acceleration in math as parents chase TJ admissions and elite college outcomes for their kids. And you know what happens? They get burned out and resentful.

Are there a few kids who are outliers who should be throwing 90mph in high school? Sure! Are there a few kids who are outliers who should be studying pre-calc in 8th grade? Sure!

But it's the craven attempt to manufacture those outliers that is damaging to the kids.

2) Every single progressive will agree with you that we absolutely should be making more efforts to improve outcomes for students from disadvantaged backgrounds in grades K-8. Every. Single. One.

But it is a false choice to suggest that we can't both do that and improve access to TJ for those groups through the removal of barriers that are so easily manipulated by the test-prep industry.

And if you genuinely want to take this ground-up approach, you have to be diligent about voting for progressives in every single local election who want to raise taxes on those who can afford to support improved public education and who favor rebalancing local budgets to prioritize fully funding advanced educational services in low-income areas of Northern Virginia.

You cannot simultaneously advocate for a ground-up approach to increasing access to advanced academics and vote for conservatives who want to slash funding for one of the nation's best school systems. Not if you want to be taken seriously.

Well both of you are wrong. It's parents and family, not the curriculum, that is the cause of these issues. At least in regards to FCPS, there is already a process to identify and nurture advanced academics in every school, just about. People have been trying to solve this equity problem for decades but always fail to realize they are always treating symptoms.

And what, precisely, do you believe the "disease" is?

Some families can’t, won’t, or don’t know how to provide a nurturing environment with a focus on academics. The are many reasons for these circumstances, but none of them are related to equitable instruction or the school district not doing enough to close the gap.

Are you suggesting that students who come from these families are now being admitted to TJ in significant quantities?

And as a follow-up, what do you suggest that students do who aren't lucky enough to be born into families that do provide these environments?

Wouldn't it be more impressive to you to see a student succeed in the context of their environment without such supports, even if the level that they reached were slightly behind what a fully supported (and in many cases, micromanaged) student attained?

For many of these families, their inability to provide these supports comes not from a lack of focus on academics, but from a significant need to focus on other things (food, shelter, safety). If you truly want to solve these issues, you need to vote for people who will swim against the consistent stream of wealth being transferred upward in society.

1) My comment was about ground up approach to equity in education, K-8, that may lead to better TJ outcomes for URM, but even more for equity in schools as a whole. This is a not a school issue.

2) Don't have an answer. Can't get new families. As you said, it's bad luck.

3) I disagree with your assertion that they are just slightly behind and so it's not as expected. Tests tend to tell the story a little clearer.

4) While people have free will, choice, and freedom, you will not solve those issues and I don't support taxing people to keep trying to find out this simple truth.

I appreciate the reasonable response.

I disagree that we should simply throw our hands up and tell children who aren't born into a specific circumstance that they're just plain out of luck when it comes to advanced academic opportunities.

The reality is that they are slightly behind. It's a relatively small number of kids who are now being admitted who are just one year of math less advanced.

I do think that your assertion in 4) is worth digging into somewhat. Is it your contention that the delta in prioritization of academics between Asian families and, say, Black families is so high as to justify a world where more Asian students were admitted to TJ in the Class of 2024 than there had been Black students admitted in its 35-year history to that point?

I would imagine that you know as well as I do that poverty significantly limits free will, choice, and freedom. We live in a society that tells a burger flipper that if they want a living wage, they shouldn't be flipping burgers - which tacitly acknowledges that we need burger flippers but that those people should live in poverty.

Just shift the focus, from focusing on schools as the delivery for this change, to other already existing frameworks. Im not saying don't do anything, just stop trying to do it through structural school changes like curriculum, standards, and admissions. It's illogical and damaging.

There have been test results that you can see beyond how many kids with algebra have been admitted. The drop in PSATs and SOLs are real. Again, tests matter.

I don't care if the school was 100% of any particular race if it was based on merit. diversity in race is meaningless. diversity in thought, experience, capabilities matters most. I reject your question.

burger flippers don't flip burgers forever. people move between lower and lower middle and middle class income brackets all the time. It's truly difficult to make it to upper class, but this idea that we are going to expect burger flippers to support themselves and a family as a burger flipper is idiotic. class mobility is real. And an honest question on this would at least recognize this.

1) To what pre-existing frameworks are you referring? Be specific...

2) It is something of a tautology that when you remove standardized exam performance as a gatekeeper for admissions, that standardized exam performance in the resulting class will drop. That information - to the extent it exists or is attributable directly to the admissions question - isn't particularly relevant.

3) I think to some extent you're correct, but I also think it's really difficult to decouple race from experience in this country. Hopefully some day that won't be the case, but any observer operating in good faith would have to acknowledge that fundamental truth.

4) We're no longer living in a world where burger-flipping, especially in urban and suburban areas, is a job for 16-year-olds over the summer. It is a full-time job that people do for a living and deserves respect. While I grant you that raising a family on a single burger-flipping income probably isn't realistic, we also shouldn't exist in a world where a family on two burger-flipping incomes can't raise enough children to replace themselves. The bottom line is that someone has to do that job, and many other minimum-wage jobs that are considered "unskilled", in order for society to continue to function in the way that it does today. Consigning those people to poverty while insisting that their jobs continue to exist is cruel.

1) No. You don't seem to be disputing that schools shouldn't be the place for solving family issues and Im not saying 'do nothing.' At this point, it's a different discussion I am not interested in having.

2) Tests matter. It's core to academics. Admissions for an advanced academic institution should require testing. It's how we judge everything in academics including progress of students throughout the year, and whether they have met the standards of a given grade or subject. Testing is extremely relevant. Lowered performance indicates declining standards of admissions for an academic institution. Colleges are publishing their TO results that show the same.

3) Sure but race doesn't equal experience and I would say is a small contributor and shouldn't be used as a proxy. You want to give it more weight maybe? I still reject it as meaningless in my merit-focused view about the school.

4) Again. People don't stay burger flippers forever. You neglected to address that point again. During a period of time in their lives, burger flippers will move onto other jobs. Your example is a bad one.

Ultimately, my original point stands, schools can't solve the familial issues. I think we will just have to agree to disagree that poverty is solvable, that testing doesn't matter, and that schools should have a certain racial makeup? Have a good evening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

Some posters are very committed to the false narrative about decline in standards. They prefer the rigged system where only wealthy students whose parents could afford to buy the test had a shot at admission.

96% had finished more than Algebra 1 before the class of 2025. That number is up to 30%+.

TJ has had to implement remedial math instruction since the class of 2025 began.

There is no false narrative. These are facts.

People spout this number as though it's supposed to mean something. What do you think it means, other than the fact that FCPS is now opening TJ's doors to more students who are merely "advanced" in math rather than "super-advanced"?

The issue is that it's closing its doors to many - if not most - students with geometry or higher in 8th grade (super advanced according to you)

TJ's doors have always been closed to a supermajority of those students.

Creating a situation where, say, Alg2 students were automatically granted admission to TJ (or given an enormous advantage) would re-create the horrific race to advance students beyond their realistic capabilities.

When you do this, students will come up with a way to compensate - and that's why we had an enormous cheating problem at TJ for over a decade.

The advanced students are usually kind to help out the Algebra 1 students. But how do the Algebra 1 students reconcile to themselves that they'll have to compete with those advanced peers two years ahead for college admissions?

At neighborhood schools, there's always a range in proficiency and classes geared to different skill levels. The ramifications of being at the bottom rung are more draconian at TJ, because those kids simply can't escape questions as to whether they really belong at the school, no matter how "kind" the advanced students purport to be. You don't have that dynamic at a school that isn't so obviously defined by its exclusivity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

Some posters are very committed to the false narrative about decline in standards. They prefer the rigged system where only wealthy students whose parents could afford to buy the test had a shot at admission.

96% had finished more than Algebra 1 before the class of 2025. That number is up to 30%+.

TJ has had to implement remedial math instruction since the class of 2025 began.

There is no false narrative. These are facts.

People spout this number as though it's supposed to mean something. What do you think it means, other than the fact that FCPS is now opening TJ's doors to more students who are merely "advanced" in math rather than "super-advanced"?

The issue is that it's closing its doors to many - if not most - students with geometry or higher in 8th grade (super advanced according to you)

TJ's doors have always been closed to a supermajority of those students.

Creating a situation where, say, Alg2 students were automatically granted admission to TJ (or given an enormous advantage) would re-create the horrific race to advance students beyond their realistic capabilities.

When you do this, students will come up with a way to compensate - and that's why we had an enormous cheating problem at TJ for over a decade.

The advanced students are usually kind to help out the Algebra 1 students. But how do the Algebra 1 students reconcile to themselves that they'll have to compete with those advanced peers two years ahead for college admissions?

The smart ones realize they don't need to compete. As a result, they'll actually enjoy and learn for the sake of learning.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

There have ALWAYS been Algebra 1 students who got into TJ. Indeed, for most of the school’s early existence, the majority of students entering were coming in from Alg1.

Some of the school’s most outstanding graduates, even in recent years, have entered from Alg1.

But you’re going to sit here and pretend that you care about them and their well-being as an excuse to advance your pernicious self-serving narrative that TJ should only be for kids who are in Geometry or higher - or that kids who are in Pre-calc or above should be automatic admits.

Alg1 TJ students do not need your support. They have been doing splendidly and will continue to do so while you cry your crocodile tears. Enough already with this nonsense.

Some posters are very committed to the false narrative about decline in standards. They prefer the rigged system where only wealthy students whose parents could afford to buy the test had a shot at admission.

96% had finished more than Algebra 1 before the class of 2025. That number is up to 30%+.

TJ has had to implement remedial math instruction since the class of 2025 began.

There is no false narrative. These are facts.

People spout this number as though it's supposed to mean something. What do you think it means, other than the fact that FCPS is now opening TJ's doors to more students who are merely "advanced" in math rather than "super-advanced"?

The issue is that it's closing its doors to many - if not most - students with geometry or higher in 8th grade (super advanced according to you)

TJ's doors have always been closed to a supermajority of those students.

Creating a situation where, say, Alg2 students were automatically granted admission to TJ (or given an enormous advantage) would re-create the horrific race to advance students beyond their realistic capabilities.

When you do this, students will come up with a way to compensate - and that's why we had an enormous cheating problem at TJ for over a decade.

The advanced students are usually kind to help out the Algebra 1 students. But how do the Algebra 1 students reconcile to themselves that they'll have to compete with those advanced peers two years ahead for college admissions?

At neighborhood schools, there's always a range in proficiency and classes geared to different skill levels. The ramifications of being at the bottom rung are more draconian at TJ, because those kids simply can't escape questions as to whether they really belong at the school, no matter how "kind" the advanced students purport to be. You don't have that dynamic at a school that isn't so obviously defined by its exclusivity.

Another way of saying this would be "we shouldn't send kids who are in Alg1 to TJ because people are going to be jerks and question their legitimacy".

I'm not really into the idea of letting the jerks win.