Does DACA and open immigration = leaders giving up on urban & flyover USA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I got a great idea. Let's spend billions on educating lots of youn motivated talent and then deport them!

About 9% of the first generation Hispanics get college degrees. Their performance on educational assessments (NAEP, SAT etc) is woeful. I don't think "educated, motivated talent" is a good term to use when describing them.

One set of my grandparents came here as poor legal immigrants. 10 kids. 50% got college or associates degrees and all had HS diplomas [not GED's]. And that was before the explosion of community colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I got a great idea. Let's spend billions on educating lots of youn motivated talent and then deport them!

About 9% of the first generation Hispanics get college degrees. Their performance on educational assessments (NAEP, SAT etc) is woeful. I don't think "educated, motivated talent" is a good term to use when describing them.

One set of my grandparents came here as poor legal immigrants. 10 kids. 50% got college or associates degrees and all had HS diplomas [not GED's]. And that was before the explosion of community colleges.

Mine too. Both sets of grandparents, none with more than a HS degree from their foreign country, had a total of nine kids between them. All but one have college degrees, and four have advanced degrees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We broke our lower and working classes so we decided to import new ones.

Well they never did pull themselves up by the bootstraps so we are moving on to people who will.

Oh, these will be the good kind of working class folks, instead of the current leeches?! Well, that works out well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Essentially our leaders, both political and multi-nationals, don't believe urban and flyover masses have no potential for upward mobility. Their theory is we have to bring in a new wave of immigrants who have more ambition and hunger to succeed?

Money and resources aren't infinite--any dollar we spend on immigrants is a dollar we're not spending on new schools, training, scholarships, etc. in/for urban & flyover Americans. There's a genuine media, political, and multi national obsession in this country with immigration, but zero obsession with urban or flyover America, outside of perhaps gun violence in inner-cities.

Do you mean "leaders don't believe urban and flyover masses have any potential"?

If I understand your premise correctly, you're about 60-75 years too late with your concern about investment in human capital. When women and minorities started into and up within the workforce, around WWII, the priority shifted from finding and training the best and brightest to maintaining middle and lower classes. The bottleneck on upward mobility has been squeezing shut for decades.

Schools, training, scholarships, etc. cost money and public funds have gone from a trickle to a dribble to a slow drip. But you should really be looking at leaders at state and local levels - especially in flyover states (koff koff - especially red states) where education hovers near the bottom of spending priorities. Look at how hostile our culture is to teachers. Any wonder the quality of teaching is so low?

The most recent statistics show that the middle class is shrinking because the upper class is expanding. Families are moving up.

+1 and the lower class too has been growing. From the 70's, the biggest jump has been the middle upper/upper class. I know for my family this has been the case. We were lower class in the 70's. Now, most of my siblings and I are upper middle.

Upper middle/upper has grown by 7 points.
Lower/lower midde has grown by 4 points
Middle class has shrunk by 11 points

The largest growth is the "Highest" bracket.

Those brackets are a bit skewed.

Well, I'm not quite sure what source that wiki graph came from, but it still shows that the upper/upper middle has shot up much more in the past few decades than any other class.

NP. Actually that's not what it shows. The last graph shows that the people st the top have accumulated large amounts of wealth while everyone else has stayed relatively static. It doesn't show movement at all between classes.

To summarize: the richest have gotten a lot richer in the US. The rest of the brackets have basically stayed the same.

Exactly. (Wow, some of you really have trouble reading charts!)

[Anonymous]

If you think fertilized eggs are people but people brought to this country as kids aren't, stop pretending your concerns are religious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There should be both immigrants and a prosperous middle America. Only small minds see one as a detriment to the other!

Here is the list of 2016 Fiscal Year employers and HB1's. Critical persons serving as physicians in isolated /underserved communities? No. That would be a minority if any. https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2016-employers.pdf

I see a preponderance of bachelor's degrees as the highest level of attained education. Guess what? Young persons with STEM, IT degrees who are US citizens have to compete with them for jobs. Cognizant and Tata etc bring in over 50,000 BS/BA alone annually and sub=contract so you don't know where these persons are working. Some of the others might represent the people who leave them and just stay under a direct employer/employee relationship.

The USA has schools , colleges, and universities. We have young people. There is no reason for this. Why should our own people have difficulty finding positions ? Does TATA recruit US citizens graduating with IT/STEM? No-that exists merely as a funnel for India and some other countries.

DP.. then why did Trump increase H2B visas? Do we have a shortage of low skilled workers or something? And interestingly, his resorts only hire H2B visa workers from Eastern Europe. I guess the hundreds of African Americans who applied to work at his resorts didn't have "special skills".

H2B is the same thing it should be eliminated also. So if you say H2B should be eliminated why do you keep justifying H1B?

Long term labor shortages do not happen naturally in market economies. That is not to say that they don't exist. They are created when employers or government agencies tamper with the natural functioning of the wage mechanism.

"[To attract] workers, the employer may have to increase his wage offer. ... So when you hear an employer saying he needs immigrants to fill a "labor shortage'', remember what you are hearing: a cry for a labor subsidy to allow the employer to avoid the normal functioning of the labor market."

-1990 Congressional Testimony of Dr. Michael S. Teitelbaum

http://users.nber.org/~sewp/references/archive/weinsteinhowandwhygovernment.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There should be both immigrants and a prosperous middle America. Only small minds see one as a detriment to the other!

Here is the list of 2016 Fiscal Year employers and HB1's. Critical persons serving as physicians in isolated /underserved communities? No. That would be a minority if any. https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2016-employers.pdf

I see a preponderance of bachelor's degrees as the highest level of attained education. Guess what? Young persons with STEM, IT degrees who are US citizens have to compete with them for jobs. Cognizant and Tata etc bring in over 50,000 BS/BA alone annually and sub=contract so you don't know where these persons are working. Some of the others might represent the people who leave them and just stay under a direct employer/employee relationship.

The USA has schools , colleges, and universities. We have young people. There is no reason for this. Why should our own people have difficulty finding positions ? Does TATA recruit US citizens graduating with IT/STEM? No-that exists merely as a funnel for India and some other countries.

and Cognizant and TATA are the MOST RACIST employers in the US. 99.9% Indians. South Indians. Why do we even let them exist in US?

subsidy to large multi national corporations and Silicon Valley.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I got a great idea. Let's spend billions on educating lots of young motivated talent and then deport them!

Talent, huh?
73% of DACA recip surveyed live in low-income household
21% dropped out of high school

[Anonymous]

If a kid's parents stop paying the mortgage, does the bank let the kid keep the house?

I mean it would be criminal/unAmerica to punish a "kid" (avg DACA age: 26) for something the parents did, right?

[Anonymous]

These arguments about immigrant labor keep ignoring the most obvious solution - limit the immigrant pool of workers by going after employers that hire them.

The only need filled by this ongoing debate is those of employers who want to keep wages and standards as low as possible. Racism and xenophobia have always worked well as a way to get the workforce to agree to management's needs.

Tighten the borders. I'm a liberal who can agree with that. But raise standards and wages within the borders.

Why is that so hard? Because the employers who buy policymakers at every level of government don't want to raise standards and wages. It's that simple.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These arguments about immigrant labor keep ignoring the most obvious solution - limit the immigrant pool of workers by going after employers that hire them.

The only need filled by this ongoing debate is those of employers who want to keep wages and standards as low as possible. Racism and xenophobia have always worked well as a way to get the workforce to agree to management's needs.

Tighten the borders. I'm a liberal who can agree with that. But raise standards and wages within the borders.

Why is that so hard? Because the employers who buy policymakers at every level of government don't want to raise standards and wages. It's that simple.

why are the Democrats against eVerify??

answer that and you will understand why they abandoned the working class.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/make-e-verify-mandatory-when-hiring-and-that-will-help-stop-illegal-immigration-2016-11-02

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There should be both immigrants and a prosperous middle America. Only small minds see one as a detriment to the other!

Here is the list of 2016 Fiscal Year employers and HB1's. Critical persons serving as physicians in isolated /underserved communities? No. That would be a minority if any. https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2016-employers.pdf

I see a preponderance of bachelor's degrees as the highest level of attained education. Guess what? Young persons with STEM, IT degrees who are US citizens have to compete with them for jobs. Cognizant and Tata etc bring in over 50,000 BS/BA alone annually and sub=contract so you don't know where these persons are working. Some of the others might represent the people who leave them and just stay under a direct employer/employee relationship.

The USA has schools , colleges, and universities. We have young people. There is no reason for this. Why should our own people have difficulty finding positions ? Does TATA recruit US citizens graduating with IT/STEM? No-that exists merely as a funnel for India and some other countries.

DP.. then why did Trump increase H2B visas? Do we have a shortage of low skilled workers or something? And interestingly, his resorts only hire H2B visa workers from Eastern Europe. I guess the hundreds of African Americans who applied to work at his resorts didn't have "special skills".

H2B is the same thing it should be eliminated also. So if you say H2B should be eliminated why do you keep justifying H1B?

Long term labor shortages do not happen naturally in market economies. That is not to say that they don't exist. They are created when employers or government agencies tamper with the natural functioning of the wage mechanism.

"[To attract] workers, the employer may have to increase his wage offer. ... So when you hear an employer saying he needs immigrants to fill a "labor shortage'', remember what you are hearing: a cry for a labor subsidy to allow the employer to avoid the normal functioning of the labor market."

-1990 Congressional Testimony of Dr. Michael S. Teitelbaum

http://users.nber.org/~sewp/references/archive/weinsteinhowandwhygovernment.pdf

PP here.. I actually work in IT and know about H1B.. work with tons of them. I have never defended it in terms of the US needing it for low skilled IT work. They do need it for highly specialized ones. However, I have stated before that just as Trump used cheap foreign labor to lower cost, so have other companies. So if Trump can do it, why can't other companies?

So if you think H2B should be eliminated then you should've been very upset that Trump increased it by 15K just a few months ago. But, no... I've heard nothing from you Trumpsters about it. Instead, you continually turn a blind eye to his hypocrisy while crying about those same things that you rail about. How dumb are you to keep doing this? Even Fox News reported that Trump raised the H2B levels. Breitbart blamed it on Ryan. Talk about fake news and blaming someone else.

Also, I can tell you that outsourcing IT has been happening for a while now, and if you increase wages here in the US, companies will just keep outsourcing those jobs more and more. The same thing happened to the textile and manufacturing industries. It's why the Trumps' line of clothing is made in China. You can raiil against the greedy CEOs, but then you should be railing against Trump and his family for choosing greed over American jobs. But you wont'. You will continually ignore this part and just rail against the "liberal" tech CEOs.

And you wonder why we keep calling you Trumpsters blind deaf and dumb.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These arguments about immigrant labor keep ignoring the most obvious solution - limit the immigrant pool of workers by going after employers that hire them.

The only need filled by this ongoing debate is those of employers who want to keep wages and standards as low as possible. Racism and xenophobia have always worked well as a way to get the workforce to agree to management's needs.

Tighten the borders. I'm a liberal who can agree with that. But raise standards and wages within the borders.

Why is that so hard? Because the employers who buy policymakers at every level of government don't want to raise standards and wages. It's that simple.

why are the Democrats against eVerify??

answer that and you will understand why they abandoned the working class.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/make-e-verify-mandatory-when-hiring-and-that-will-help-stop-illegal-immigration-2016-11-02

The answer is in the article you linked:

1) Employers who want to keep hiring illegal labor. There are too many with lobbying power to push the levers of
2) Politics. As long as we can keep immigration an unsolvable solution, they can keep issue #1 as status quo.

Amnesty for people who are already here is essential to productivity and the economy. The article gives passing mention to farming, but agribusiness would come to a painful and screeching halt if you made the majority of its laborers illegal tomorrow. And if you made them legal, the law would also require that you adhere to the law on wages, occupational safety, and other laws that protect workers.

We can look to the coal industry for workers who just don't give a damn about any of that. If you say something about safety violations or the fact that you generally can't breathe, you're looking to become unemployed. Outside of coal, the easiest and enormously successful way of accomplishing the feat of a workforce that will accept any abuse is finding a workforce that has no other choice. Thus, illegal immigration goes on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These arguments about immigrant labor keep ignoring the most obvious solution - limit the immigrant pool of workers by going after employers that hire them.

The only need filled by this ongoing debate is those of employers who want to keep wages and standards as low as possible. Racism and xenophobia have always worked well as a way to get the workforce to agree to management's needs.

Tighten the borders. I'm a liberal who can agree with that. But raise standards and wages within the borders.

Why is that so hard? Because the employers who buy policymakers at every level of government don't want to raise standards and wages. It's that simple.

why are the Democrats against eVerify??

answer that and you will understand why they abandoned the working class.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/make-e-verify-mandatory-when-hiring-and-that-will-help-stop-illegal-immigration-2016-11-02

The answer is in the article you linked:

1) Employers who want to keep hiring illegal labor. There are too many with lobbying power to push the levers of
2) Politics. As long as we can keep immigration an unsolvable solution, they can keep issue #1 as status quo.

Amnesty for people who are already here is essential to productivity and the economy. The article gives passing mention to farming, but agribusiness would come to a painful and screeching halt if you made the majority of its laborers illegal tomorrow. And if you made them legal, the law would also require that you adhere to the law on wages, occupational safety, and other laws that protect workers.

We can look to the coal industry for workers who just don't give a damn about any of that. If you say something about safety violations or the fact that you generally can't breathe, you're looking to become unemployed. Outside of coal, the easiest and enormously successful way of accomplishing the feat of a workforce that will accept any abuse is finding a workforce that has no other choice. Thus, illegal immigration goes on.

amnesty for people here is democratic politics. more votes. a giant f you to the US workers to get more votes.

That is why Democrats will not accept eVerify. They want amnesty to get 40 million more votes for democrats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These arguments about immigrant labor keep ignoring the most obvious solution - limit the immigrant pool of workers by going after employers that hire them.

The only need filled by this ongoing debate is those of employers who want to keep wages and standards as low as possible. Racism and xenophobia have always worked well as a way to get the workforce to agree to management's needs.

Tighten the borders. I'm a liberal who can agree with that. But raise standards and wages within the borders.

Why is that so hard? Because the employers who buy policymakers at every level of government don't want to raise standards and wages. It's that simple.

why are the Democrats against eVerify??

answer that and you will understand why they abandoned the working class.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/make-e-verify-mandatory-when-hiring-and-that-will-help-stop-illegal-immigration-2016-11-02

The answer is in the article you linked:

1) Employers who want to keep hiring illegal labor. There are too many with lobbying power to push the levers of
2) Politics. As long as we can keep immigration an unsolvable solution, they can keep issue #1 as status quo.

Amnesty for people who are already here is essential to productivity and the economy. The article gives passing mention to farming, but agribusiness would come to a painful and screeching halt if you made the majority of its laborers illegal tomorrow. And if you made them legal, the law would also require that you adhere to the law on wages, occupational safety, and other laws that protect workers.

We can look to the coal industry for workers who just don't give a damn about any of that. If you say something about safety violations or the fact that you generally can't breathe, you're looking to become unemployed. Outside of coal, the easiest and enormously successful way of accomplishing the feat of a workforce that will accept any abuse is finding a workforce that has no other choice. Thus, illegal immigration goes on.

amnesty for people here is democratic politics. more votes. a giant f you to the US workers to get more votes.

That is why Democrats will not accept eVerify. They want amnesty to get 40 million more votes for democrats.

That's funny. Republican farmers are the biggest users of illegal immigrant labor.

If you are serious about curtailing illegal immigrants, you should lobby congress and Trump to raise the penalty for hiring illegal immigrants to $10k/person. That would stop most of the greedy R farmers from hiring them. Kill the demand; the supply will die. Very easy. Heck of a lot cheaper than the wall. Just hire a few more ICE enforcers to check papers. But you won't because it's easier to go after the poor illegal immigrant than it is the rich white business owners, like Trump.